Your thoughts on 'Justice' by Alex Ross and Jim Krueger (2005 - 2007)

[Rod G]

The ultimate 'Justice League vs the Legion of Doom' story. What's not to love?

Attachment 67505
Attachment 67506Attachment 67507

I wish Firestorm had been included but as I stated before I enjoyed JUSTICE.

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

I wish Firestorm had been included but as I stated before I enjoyed JUSTICE.

Ross doesn't like that Firestorm joined the League. I think he thinks that was when the JLA jumped the shark.

[caj]

Ross doesn't like that Firestorm joined the League. I think he thinks that was when the JLA jumped the shark.

And apparently he thinks that Captain Marvel, Plastic Man, and Metamorpho did join at some point. Or at least believes they were always hanging around the JLA.

[DrNewGod]

I wish Firestorm had been included but as I stated before I enjoyed JUSTICE.

Ross doesn't like that Firestorm joined the League. I think he thinks that was when the JLA jumped the shark.

And apparently he thinks that Captain Marvel, Plastic Man, and Metamorpho did join at some point. Or at least believes they were always hanging around the JLA.

There is a legitimate gripe in Firestorm's exclusion, and both Captain Marvel and (especially) Plastic Man's inclusion; clearly Ross was playing favorites. In contrast with Plas and The Captain, Metamorpho had turned up widely and frequently in the Earth-One DCU of the time, including a few times in the JL's pages, so I don't find his inclusion anymore jarring than that of The Metal Men or The Doom Patrol.

Ross might have a point about the JL after Firestorm. (IMO) It's not that the JL got particularly bad at that time, or that Firestrom contributed to a decline, but JL was suffering in comparison to The Legion and The Teen Titans. Just a change in the times. If you're taking a nostalgic look at The Bronze Age, the post-Firestorm era was probably not the JL's peak as the coolest thing in the DCU.

[Rod G]

There is a legitimate gripe in Firestorm's exclusion, and both Captain Marvel and (especially) Plastic Man's inclusion; clearly Ross was playing favorites. In contrast with Plas and The Captain, Metamorpho had turned up widely and frequently in the Earth-One DCU of the time, including a few times in the JL's pages, so I don't find his inclusion anymore jarring than that of The Metal Men or The Doom Patrol.

Ross might have a point about the JL after Firestorm. (IMO) It's not that the JL got particularly bad at that time, or that Firestrom contributed to a decline, but JL was suffering in comparison to The Legion and The Teen Titans. Just a change in the times. If you're taking a nostalgic look at The Bronze Age, the post-Firestorm era was probably not the JL's peak as the coolest thing in the DCU.

I suppose that’s one way of looking at it.

[Lightning Rider]

I actually revisited the "Ross dislikes Firestorm" thing again and was reminded of this:

http://firestormfan.com/2015/03/17/alex-ross/



"We don’t know if that note was written by Alex Ross or Paul Dini, but regardless it played a role in their decision to exclude Firestorm from JLA: Secret Origins and JLA: Liberty and Justice. I believe I understand where they are coming from with that decision. Some people consider the death of Iris Allen to be the beginning of darker storytelling for the DC heroes. It occurred in the middle of the Bronze Age, as comics marched towards the “Modern Age”. Or perhaps Ross and Dini prefer the Flash before he suffered the tragedy of losing his wife. If Ross doesn’t want to stray into the “darker” era of DC Comics, then that’s a reasonable cut-off point. Putting this on a timeline, Firestorm was created prior to the death of Iris Allen, but he hadn’t joined the JLA yet.

Firestorm first premiered: Firestorm The Nuclear Man #1 (cover dated March 1978)
Iris Allen is murdered: The Flash #275 (cover dated July 1979)
Firestorm joins the JLA: Justice League of America #179 (cover dated June 1980)"

Of course, it goes on to say:

Exhibit D: We can accept that Alex Ross may only want to draw the Satellite Era JLA as they appeared prior to the death of Iris Allen. However, Ross has rendered a few modern day JLA pieces, each lacking a certain Nuclear Man. Below you’ll find team shots including latter-day JLA additions, such as: Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, Mister Miracle, Big Barda, Orion, Lightray, John Stewart, Hawkgirl, Geo-Force, Vixen, Black Lightning, and Red Arrow. Was the exclusion of Firestorm intentional or simply a case of circumstance?

[DrNewGod]

I actually revisited the "Ross dislikes Firestorm" thing again and was reminded of this:

http://firestormfan.com/2015/03/17/alex-ross/



"We don’t know if that note was written by Alex Ross or Paul Dini, but regardless it played a role in their decision to exclude Firestorm from JLA: Secret Origins and JLA: Liberty and Justice. I believe I understand where they are coming from with that decision. Some people consider the death of Iris Allen to be the beginning of darker storytelling for the DC heroes. It occurred in the middle of the Bronze Age, as comics marched towards the “Modern Age”. Or perhaps Ross and Dini prefer the Flash before he suffered the tragedy of losing his wife. If Ross doesn’t want to stray into the “darker” era of DC Comics, then that’s a reasonable cut-off point. Putting this on a timeline, Firestorm was created prior to the death of Iris Allen, but he hadn’t joined the JLA yet.

Firestorm first premiered: Firestorm The Nuclear Man #1 (cover dated March 1978)
Iris Allen is murdered: The Flash #275 (cover dated July 1979)
Firestorm joins the JLA: Justice League of America #179 (cover dated June 1980)"

Of course, it goes on to say:

Exhibit D: We can accept that Alex Ross may only want to draw the Satellite Era JLA as they appeared prior to the death of Iris Allen. However, Ross has rendered a few modern day JLA pieces, each lacking a certain Nuclear Man. Below you’ll find team shots including latter-day JLA additions, such as: Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, Mister Miracle, Big Barda, Orion, Lightray, John Stewart, Hawkgirl, Geo-Force, Vixen, Black Lightning, and Red Arrow. Was the exclusion of Firestorm intentional or simply a case of circumstance?

That's really interesting, and popped one of my erroneous assumptions. Thanks!

[Bored at 3:00AM]

This is set even earlier than the death of Iris. It's a DCU prior to Aquaman and Mera's baby son being murdered by Black Manta, which is much darker in my view

I believe Ross stated that Justice takes place in an eternally 1973 DCU

[caj]

This is set even earlier than the death of Iris. It's a DCU prior to Aquaman and Mera's baby son being murdered by Black Manta, which is much darker in my view

I believe Ross stated that Justice takes place in an eternally 1973 DCU

1973 huh? Well, that is possible for sure. All this time, I assumed that Hawkgirl and Zatanna were actual JLA members during these stories. However, those two ladies were guest stars in the book for years until they actually joined in the late 70s. I guess only Ross knows for sure.

[Lightning Rider]

1973 huh? Well, that is possible for sure. All this time, I assumed that Hawkgirl and Zatanna were actual JLA members during these stories. However, those two ladies were guest stars in the book for years until they actually joined in the late 70s. I guess only Ross knows for sure.

I remember reading he called it a "pocket Universe" based on the Silver Age but I don't think it is bound to strict continuity.

[DrNewGod]

I remember reading he called it a "pocket Universe" based on the Silver Age but I don't think it is bound to strict continuity.

Definitely not strictly bound to continuity. Neither Plastic Man nor Captain Marvel inhabited the Justice League's Earth-1 back in those days.

[caj]

I believe Ross stated that Justice takes place in an eternally 1973 DCU

1973 would also explain why Zatanna always wears the magician uniform instead of the pony-tail look she adapted when she joined the League.

[BatmanJones]

1973 huh? Well, that is possible for sure. All this time, I assumed that Hawkgirl and Zatanna were actual JLA members during these stories. However, those two ladies were guest stars in the book for years until they actually joined in the late 70s. I guess only Ross knows for sure.

Zatanna joined very late, in Dec. 78 which is essentially a year from the 80s. She was the penultimate character to join before Firestorm. The difference was that there was history before she joined. With Firestorm it felt like he was invented to breathe fresh air into JLA. The power sets are completely different but having Firestorm join JLA was almost like having Spider-Man join. And I agree with Ross he doesn't really belong among the classic lineup.

[caj]

And I agree with Ross he doesn't really belong among the classic lineup.

I guess everyone has different opinions of this. For me, Firestorm definitely belongs as a definitive member of the Satellite Years.

True, he came in on the tail end of the Dick Dillin era - which some may identify as the end of the classic JLA with Dillin's death (and I could understand that). But Firestorm was a member for over 50 issues (#179 - #133, Annual 2). He was also a member of some important issues during that time.

Again, it all depends on when you believe the JLofA actually stopped being the classic JLofA. Was it the end of the 1970s? Dillin's death? Issue 200? Or the beginning of that dreadful Detroit period?

[DrNewGod]

Zatanna joined very late, in Dec. 78 which is essentially a year from the 80s. She was the penultimate character to join before Firestorm. The difference was that there was history before she joined. With Firestorm it felt like he was invented to breathe fresh air into JLA. The power sets are completely different but having Firestorm join JLA was almost like having Spider-Man join. And I agree with Ross he doesn't really belong among the classic lineup.

I guess everyone has different opinions of this. For me, Firestorm definitely belongs as a definitive member of the Satellite Years.

True, he came in on the tail end of the Dick Dillin era - which some may identify as the end of the classic JLA with Dillin's death (and I could understand that). But Firestorm was a member for over 50 issues (#179 - #133, Annual 2). He was also a member of some important issues during that time.

Again, it all depends on when you believe the JLofA actually stopped being the classic JLofA. Was it the end of the 1970s? Dillin's death? Issue 200? Or the beginning of that dreadful Detroit period?

It's all a matter of opinion I suppose. I agree with BatmanJones: Firestorm was clearly brought in to add something different to the JLA, and it seemed a bit forced. That said, in some ways, Firestorm had a better claim to one of the chairs around the satellite's meeting table than Red Tornado.

Until the admission of Red, all of the members of The JLA had at least carried features, even if only as backups in other titles. Even Zatanna held features in Adventure Comics and Supergirl for a couple of years. While Red had a rich story built up over time with The League, Firestorm had held a title of his own (one of the victims of the DC Implosion). I'm not even a Firestorm fan, but if the JLA was supposed to be the greatest and most prominent superheroes of DC's world, Firestorm had ample stature in comparison to members like The Atom, Black Canary, Elongated Man, Hawkman, and Zatanna.

Firestorm's admission occurred in the year that The New Teen Titans debuted and The Uncanny X-Men really began to hit its stride. Their rise to prominence made the venerable greats like Justice League of America and The Avengers begin to look old-hat. That's probably less a matter of Firestorm contributing to a decline than a coincidence between his inclusion and the changing times.

Still, people look for causes inside coincidence. I can see why somebody would see Firestorm as the harbinger of the JLA's decline.