What's the place of sidekicks/derivative characters in the DCU?

[DrNewGod]

A thread under the Wonder Woman forum is discussing what role WW should have as a mentor across the DCU. Some of the comments got me wondering: What role should sidekicks (Robin, etc.) and derivative characters (i.e. Supergirl) have in The DCU? That's a question that's almost unique to DC, as Marvel generally hasn't done sidekicks since the days of Rick Jones.

Should sidekicks (and especially, ex-sidekicks) ever be as competent as their mentor (or former mentor)? That goes to just how big a problem that a writer should load onto the character. The derivative characters, like Power Girl, face similar problems.

For example, I loved the Young Justice toon, and can't wait for S3. But one thing about it that slightly bugged me was that The Team (okay, two things, why couldn't they call them The Titans?) were supposed to be heroes in training as well as covert assets for the JL, yet they were the ones generally carrying the weight. Granted, the show was about The Team, but giving them problems of that size, with that much agency and competence sometimes came at the expense of the JL characters. I didn't want to see The Team look like a crowd of punks who constantly needed A Mentor Knows Best PSA built into the climax of every episode, but on raw competence, it seemed like the entire Team should have been inducted into the JL by the time they handled their end of The Injustice Gang affair in "Revelation," and certainly no later than "Misplaced," where they carried an equal burden with their mentors.

On the other extreme, for decades, a key function of characters like Aqualad and Robin were to screwup or get captured, so that characters like Aquaman or Batman could get into a jam through no fault of their own, which they would then heroically overcome. Making characters a means of making another character look good makes for a very unsatisfying character.

So, what's the answer? What role should derivative and/or sidekick characters play in the DCU? Trainee? Minor League player? Up-and-Coming New Hotshot?

[caj]

I think they should support without ever overshadowing the main character. There can even be a storyline that features them every so often - as a means of developing the character more.

[Restingvoice]

Their place is what naturally and logically should happen based on what they've experienced and how the story progress. If it feels like they're good enough to be in the JL, then they should be in the JL. If not, then they should not.

[WhipWhirlwind]

Their place is what naturally and logically should happen based on what they've experienced and how the story progress. If it feels like they're good enough to be in the JL, then they should be in the JL. If not, then they should not.

Also, be aware of your glass ceilings.

Don't talk up Nightwing as the best leader in the DCU when you know damn well he will never get the big boy job.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Ideally they should be used like any other character. They play off the lead and develop the mythos etc.

They could be leads themselves but the problem with most legacies is they often dont stand out from the main guy. Thats why they get a bad rep as "mini-mes".

[Korath]

I disagree with the idea that Marvel doesn't do derivative characters : Sam Alexander, Amadeus Cho, Riri Williams, Kamala Khan, Miles Morales, just to name a few are just that. But Marvel does them far better than DC, because they aren't shackled by the Trinity and the Big Seven, and Fab Five and all that jazz which prevents new characters from shining, because DC doesn't want to risk alienating his old fans even for a month (just look at the reception that Duke Thomas got : he's a great character but peoples are boycotting the Bat-books just because he appears in one or two panels, supposedly because he's "stealing" panel time from Tim Drake or any other bat-family's favorite).

If DC wants peoples to be interested in those sidekicks/derivative characters and breed a pool of characters for the DCEU which could be used, instead of rebooting X time the same characters or resorting to elseworlds of the same characters, they need to be willing to put the "main" ones in hold for a time long enough for the other to succeed. But considering that both New Superman and the New Age of Heroes books, which are (or were) great books and probably (IMHO) some of the best DC is pushing out there at the moment, are either cancelled or not selling too hot, I think it demonstrate that the DC readership isn't interested in new things, as confirmed by the success of Rebirth and its catering of nostalgic fans, which leave peoples like me, who aren't into Marvel's vibe but not into the ultra-classic and almost reactionary rosters and stories of DC drifting with very little things to care about.

[skyvolt2000]

I disagree with the idea that Marvel doesn't do derivative characters : Sam Alexander, Amadeus Cho, Riri Williams, Kamala Khan, Miles Morales, just to name a few are just that. But Marvel does them far better than DC, because they aren't shackled by the Trinity and the Big Seven, and Fab Five and all that jazz which prevents new characters from shining, because DC doesn't want to risk alienating his old fans even for a month (just look at the reception that Duke Thomas got : he's a great character but peoples are boycotting the Bat-books just because he appears in one or two panels, supposedly because he's "stealing" panel time from Tim Drake or any other bat-family's favorite).

If DC wants peoples to be interested in those sidekicks/derivative characters and breed a pool of characters for the DCEU which could be used, instead of rebooting X time the same characters or resorting to elseworlds of the same characters, they need to be willing to put the "main" ones in hold for a time long enough for the other to succeed. But considering that both New Superman and the New Age of Heroes books, which are (or were) great books and probably (IMHO) some of the best DC is pushing out there at the moment, are either cancelled or not selling too hot, I think it demonstrate that the DC readership isn't interested in new things, as confirmed by the success of Rebirth and its catering of nostalgic fans, which leave peoples like me, who aren't into Marvel's vibe but not into the ultra-classic and almost reactionary rosters and stories of DC drifting with very little things to care about.

I disagree I think the readers are willing but they have to be shown that DC gives a DAMN. Now just toss them out for awhile and then bury them or trash or whatever them. With some exceptions.

How do you think Jason Rusch fans feel about how badly he was done by Ronnie's creator? A 3 year solo run, JL role, tv gigs and toys. All tossed away.
Cassandra Cain? 6 year solo and deem pitch toxic.
Stephanie Brown
Wally West
To a lesser point Dick Grayson
Ms Martian
Conner Kent
We WON'T discuss John Stewart.

What was the point of supporting these guys? That falls on management.

Marvel for the most part tries to give you both. How many solos has She Hulk had?
Erik Masterson got a solo after Thor came back.
Rhodey had solos & mini after Tony came back.

Only here does it seem to be some issue.

[Frontier]

Ostensibly I think any sidekick or spinoff character should work as individual characters but also serve a role that supports and develops the main hero to some degree, whether it be showcasing them as a mentor, teacher, family, friend etc or giving them a new kind of dynamic to explore.

By role a sidekick is usually meant to compliment the hero without outshining them, but that doesn't mean said sidekick can't develop on their own or should be "held back" by virtue of being a sidekick, as progressing from a sidekick into something new and unique is one of the hallmarks of DC's sidekicks in my opinion.

[WhipWhirlwind]

By role a sidekick is usually meant to compliment the hero without outshining them, but that doesn't mean said sidekick can't develop on their own or should be "held back" by virtue of being a sidekick, as progressing from a sidekick into something new and unique is one of the hallmarks of DC's sidekicks in my opinion.

And this is my issue with Nightwing. He is held back because his ceiling is being the best of the b team unless he's filling in for Batman.

[Rac7d*]

And this is my issue with Nightwing. He is held back because his ceiling is being the best of the b team unless he's filling in for Batman.

All it takes is a movie, one the puvlic gets a taste suddenly DC will comply

[Rise]

All it takes is a movie, one the puvlic gets a taste suddenly DC will comply

Like how WW benefited big time from having her movie being successful? The puplic who cares enough about superhero movies aren't in dark about Nightwing, they simply don't care.

And for the topic, my favourite character is former sidekick and I'm ok with him having small place in DCU because I cares more about reading good stories about him than him being shown to be "the best ever!!". As long he isn't used as fodder for other characters and having writers who cares enough to take him into interesting directions, I'm cool.

[Digifiend]

I disagree with the idea that Marvel doesn't do derivative characters : Sam Alexander, Amadeus Cho, Riri Williams, Kamala Khan, Miles Morales, just to name a few are just that.

The entire Champions team are legacies, lol. Except maybe Snowguard.

But nobody said Marvel don't do derivatives, they only said they don't do sidekicks.

[DrNewGod]

I disagree with the idea that Marvel doesn't do derivative characters : Sam Alexander, Amadeus Cho, Riri Williams, Kamala Khan, Miles Morales, just to name a few...

...But nobody said Marvel don't do derivatives, they only said they don't do sidekicks.

To be precise, I said that Marvel doesn't generally do sidekicks, and hasn't since the days of Rick Jones (Lee famously hated the whole idea). There are still a few out there at Marvel, from time to time. As Digifiend pointed out, derivatives are a whole other thing, but at DC, they tend to have some problems in common with sidekicks (note: tend).

ETA, Note To Self: Never again mention Marvel comparatively in a DC forum post. Derails conversation.

[DrNewGod]

...my favourite character is former sidekick and I'm ok with him having small place in DCU because I cares more about reading good stories about him than him being shown to be "the best ever!!". As long he isn't used as fodder for other characters and having writers who cares enough to take him into interesting directions, I'm cool.

I like this view of it.

[mace11]

I disagree with the idea that Marvel doesn't do derivative characters : Sam Alexander, Amadeus Cho, Riri Williams, Kamala Khan, Miles Morales,

Kamala Khan by the way does not have the same powers as captain marvel(former ms. marvel).
Carol used to be ms. marvel but now she is captain marvel.
Captain marvel is a name some others had before her and now she is getting own movie.