Ollie is in distress

[Rise]

Ollie would have been cancelled 10 times over if it wasn't for the fact that Arrow wasn't still on TV

Going by this logic, it's a true wonder that DC didn't cancel all their books that aren't Batman, Flash, Superman and Wonder Woman (and the latter two already were close to be under 30k mark).

The problem isn't with GA, the problem is with the industry who their numbers are pretty bad and keep getting worse.

[Trey Strain]

Going by this logic, it's a true wonder that DC didn't cancel all their books that aren't Batman, Flash, Superman and Wonder Woman (and the latter two already were close to be under 30k mark).

The problem isn't with GA, the problem is with the industry who their numbers are pretty bad and keep getting worse.

Marvel's numbers are down. DC's numbers are pretty good.

Yes, there is a problem with Green Arrow, because it's selling only 3K more than the DCU's usual cancellation level.

[Rise]

DC aren't doing good at all. The sales are falling badly.

The only thing that still doing well in sales in both Marvel and DC is Star Wars and Batman (tho, Star Wars is falling behind after the bad reception of TLJ).

[Carabas]

(tho, Star Wars is falling behind after the bad reception of TLJ).

I think the abhorrent art has more to do with it.

[Rise]

Oh, the main book doesn't have a good art, but Vader has a good one and he used to do better with a worse art.

TLJ definitely hurt the brand and killed the enthusiasm in fans (I personally don't think it was that bad, but not as great or deep like some of its fans think). The fact that Disney are removing TLJ name from their merchandise is already telling.

[Trey Strain]

DC aren't doing good at all. The sales are falling badly.

The only thing that still doing well in sales in both Marvel and DC is Star Wars and Batman (tho, Star Wars is falling behind after the bad reception of TLJ).

Yes, Star Wars is propping up Marvel. And yes, Batman is DC's big gun, as it has been for THIRTY YEARS.

Marvel took a big jump upward in 2015, thanks to Star Wars. Take away Star Wars, and DC would actually be ahead now.

http://www.comichron.com/vitalstatis...resyearly.html

But that's irrelevant to this discussion and doesn't mean that there's no problem with Green Arrow, because Green Arrow is indeed approaching cancellation level. Stop claiming that Green Arrow has no problem please.

[Rise]

Star Wars was a big win for Marvel, but you are kidding yourself if you think it's the only reason why it did better. Marvel have doing better than DC for years and only in the recent years that their sales are doing worse that they are depending on overshiping and variants.

And when DC will stop having most of their books under 30k with the exception of very few books, I will stop saying the problem lays more with the industry.

[Carabas]

Take away Star Wars, and...

...and a lot of A-list talent that is working on the Star Wars books would be working on MU books so there's really no way at all to armchairquarterback what sales would be like..

[JackDaw]

...and a lot of A-list talent that is working on the Star Wars books would be working on MU books so there's really no way at all to armchairquarterback what sales would be like..

But as Trey has pointed out a time or three, none of that means GA is selling well.

I’m surprised that practically nobody is prepared to consider a significant change to character itself.

Even those that admit to a problem with sales are suggesting the same old gubbins..relaunch with a new number one, tie-in with Batman, new creative team.

All been done before, and usually end with GA hoovering near cancellation. The old Einstein quote applies: “Insanity: doing the same thing and expecting different results”.

[Carabas]

But as Trey has pointed out a time or three, none of that means GA is selling well.

I’m surprised that practically nobody is prepared to consider a significant change to character itself.

But Green Arrow has rarely been a stellar seller. I don't think there isn't anything wrong with him that wasn't already wrong 30 or 40 years ago.
This is not insanity, this is simply the way comics work in the direct market, a very small handful of characters excepted.
This is doing largely the same thing and expecting more or less the same results.

Or to put it another way, would you have 'fixed' Hitman to make it sell more?

There is also no evidence that Einstein said anything of the kind.

[JackDaw]

But Green Arrow has rarely been a stellar seller. I don't think there isn't anything wrong with him that wasn't already wrong 30 or 40 years ago.
This is not insanity, this is simply the way comics work in the direct market, a very small handful of characters excepted.
This is doing largely the same thing and expecting more or less the same results.

Or to put it another way, would you have 'fixed' Hitman to make it sell more?

There is also no evidence that Einstein said anything of the kind.

So basically accept mediocre sales, because he’s GA.

Not the worst strategy..I accept that. At end of day, we both know myriads of characters that sell worse than GA.

But I think freezing him in time, keeping him as DC’s bow and arrow guy does him no favours, not in the adult “arm” of DC’s comics. Look at his longest solo run...the Mike Grell run. Mike didn’t even try to write him as a super hero..he didn’t pitch him against super villains at all.

If anybody was creating a super hero for today’s comics, I think it would be regarded as blatant nonsense to create a non meta bowman who went up against super villains. That only an “okay premise” if aim is for comedy.

I think it’s way past time GA was updated.

Give him some sensible powers, or at very least a more sensible way of operating. If that (trying something new) fails, I don’t see what DC loses. GA can just lose his new powers. We could both “write” umpteen ways to do that.

If all that (for some obscure reason) is too radical...I’d consider a Brave and Bold type comic, with GA as the lead star, rather than Batman.

[Rise]

So basically accept mediocre sales, because he’s GA.

No. The problem isn't GA exclusive when only very few of your characters are able to sell above 30k which something some of you seem to ignore.

DC have a big problem in their hand and they need to find solution for the whole line because GA is a symptom of it, not the reason.

[JackDaw]

No. The problem isn't GA exclusive when only very few of your characters are able to sell above 30k which something some of you seem to ignore.

DC have a big problem in their hand and they need to find solution for the whole line because GA is a symptom of it, not the reason.

Let’s go along with assumption that DC need a solution for “whole line”...doesn’t that support idea of trying something radical and new with GA, rather than just doing stuff that’s been done dozens of times before?

[Rise]

It doesn't because DC have been doing ceative changes on their other books and the sales are still keep getting worse. I think it's time to admit the problem goes beyond the characters especially when we have reports about how the whole industry is doing worse.

[JackDaw]

It doesn't because DC have been doing ceative changes on their other books and the sales are still keep getting worse. I think it's time to admit the problem goes beyond the characters especially when we have reports about how the whole industry is doing worse.

The characters are a massive selling feature in super hero comics.

The Bat family works..so leave them alone.

Most of the rest don't.

If idea of updating those other characters to make them more relevant to their modern setting is ruled out (which effectively seems the line on this thread of everybody except Trey and me)...then what option remains??

What is your preferred solution??