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  1. #196
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    It's hard for writers to acknowledge the impossible with characters like superman because of there existing some do's and don'ts. Him acknowledging his 'fall' for lieing itself is enough for me. There by saying that there are certain things 'impossible' for superman. He can't kill. He can't save lives without lieing, many a times.
    He lies all day every day in virtually every story by way of being Clark. We see him occasionally and currently deal with big and small consequences for that and for this story it's something Darkseid would know, so it's not really set up as being "enough" if it's just left at that. Of course historically there was a weird thing where Superman "couldn't" lie, but that has to tiptoe around his identity for one thing. Aside from that it's hard to say he can't kill vs saying he doesn't want to kill. I can't say we're given the impossible in that case or throughout this story, where it's just a term used repeatedly for the writer to telegraph a dramatic scene.

    Finding a cure cannot be a journey either. because of the 'one shot' nature of the book nor is it part of the question posed.
    Darkseid didn't select that particular alien and didn't actually watch what happened, so that whole sequence wasn't really necessary to the story. He might as well have just flown out and found a cure and had the same convo with Darkseid instead of sitting there with the knife and all that. It still works in that there are two chapters between that and the visit, and it places the little girl at stake, but it's a bit weird pace wise because it sets up the situation with great detail and resolves it as an afterthought that erases the bit or imagination it allows.

    Batman Universe was exactly the same length but had a more effective story flow and for a one shot with the same size as one of these chapters I think King had a stronger statement with Action #1000.

    no, superman is the best hero because he makes time to go on a Fools quest to save a girl out there in space somewhere and talks to her. That was the message for me. League, the robots and alien were mere side quests with lesser priority with robot being lowest. For other heroes these might be the main quests,not the side quest. He saved a girl, he just happened to punch a robot and saved the world while doing that. This trivialising of 'main quest' and the struggles of it as just side quest level difficulty makes superman great. Treatment of herculean tasks like breaking an unbreakable chain like an afterthought by superman and his great struggle in answering questions of an inquisitive girl, explaining how his powers work to her Is what makes superman great. King just decided to give a happy ending to everyone involved.
    Well put. Certain elements make me too critical of others tbh. This being comics of course it has to turn the side quest into the main quest (the abduction of that single child means a mustache twirling plot to robopunch the world to rubble) and throughout it feels like King has the characters stare at the reader and make direct observations, but it does work better when you look at it as though the tasks really don't matter to him.


    Superman isn't a martial artist. He shouldn't be put into that category. He can be an olymipian, a strong man, a boxer. but an asian style martial artist. Sorry, he just doesn't fit. Whatever is called martial art is basically mimicking Eastern martial arts and maybe even parodying it. He just isn't that kind of character. The character doesn't follow bushido, sun tzu, lao tzu... Etc or any martial or non martial philosophies of the east. It's basically, just latching on to something that's cool.
    Eh... Horu Kanu and Klurkor are "Asian" stlye martial arts from Krypton used by pre crisis Faora and pre crisis Lois, respectively. Back in the late 60 to early 80s they were part of that craze I guess. Torquasm was a Kryptonian meditation and "awakening" type system Superman briefly used for focus and as a counter measure against reality warping and psychic warfare. If you mention Goku and all that well they do take influence from the same eastern concepts but it's not as though Superman copied them, whereas a lot of those characters take some measure of inspiration from him. Superman does take influence from pulp characters, chiefly Doc Savage. Golden age Superman was a "complete" renaissance man and a man of tomorrow, so in the beginning and occasionally throughout the years that sort of thing would be up his alley. I think it all sort of went away because there's enough to do in a story without it, but I don't see how it contrasts here.
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  2. #197
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    He lies all day every day in virtually every story by way of being Clark. We see him occasionally and currently deal with big and small consequences for that and for this story it's something Darkseid would know, so it's not really set up as being "enough" if it's just left at that. Of course historically there was a weird thing where Superman "couldn't" lie, but that has to tiptoe around his identity for one thing. Aside from that it's hard to say he can't kill vs saying he doesn't want to kill. I can't say we're given the impossible in that case or throughout this story, where it's just a term used repeatedly for the writer to telegraph a dramatic scene.


    Darkseid didn't select that particular alien and didn't actually watch what happened, so that whole sequence wasn't really necessary to the story. He might as well have just flown out and found a cure and had the same convo with Darkseid instead of sitting there with the knife and all that. It still works in that there are two chapters between that and the visit, and it places the little girl at stake, but it's a bit weird pace wise because it sets up the situation with great detail and resolves it as an afterthought that erases the bit or imagination it allows.

    Batman Universe was exactly the same length but had a more effective story flow and for a one shot with the same size as one of these chapters I think King had a stronger statement with Action #1000.



    Well put. Certain elements make me too critical of others tbh. This being comics of course it has to turn the side quest into the main quest (the abduction of that single child means a mustache twirling plot to robopunch the world to rubble) and throughout it feels like King has the characters stare at the reader and make direct observations, but it does work better when you look at it as though the tasks really don't matter to him.




    Eh... Horu Kanu and Klurkor are "Asian" stlye martial arts from Krypton used by pre crisis Faora and pre crisis Lois, respectively. Back in the late 60 to early 80s they were part of that craze I guess. Torquasm was a Kryptonian meditation and "awakening" type system Superman briefly used for focus and as a counter measure against reality warping and psychic warfare. If you mention Goku and all that well they do take influence from the same eastern concepts but it's not as though Superman copied them, whereas a lot of those characters take some measure of inspiration from him. Superman does take influence from pulp characters, chiefly Doc Savage. Golden age Superman was a "complete" renaissance man and a man of tomorrow, so in the beginning and occasionally throughout the years that sort of thing would be up his alley. I think it all sort of went away because there's enough to do in a story without it, but I don't see how it contrasts here.
    Yes, he does lie. We know that. But not many of non-fans who view him as perfect and some who put him in a pedestal or some kind of aspirational figure don't. So, i saw it as an issue for them. Human Morality has limits. Superman is still human in that department.that's the worth of the chapter for me.

    Meditation as a doctrine is largely eastern. Now, i am not counting out similar techniques existing other parts of the world. But, in this context and the way superman does it is. Eastern doctrines can be about the spiritual that might not even exist scientifically.the philosophies that are part of it touch very much non material world.superman is the man of action. His mentality is different from someone like the buddha or lao tzu. He thrives in the physical world. western martial philosophies focus on physical aspect entirely( I am speaking broadly). It's about strategy, symmetry, practicality, physicality.. Etc. Things like emotional state, mental state are given less importance . Superman is based on that. He is a physical specimen. Just look at his body. He is either a strongman/wrestler or a sculpted greek god. Goku is also a physical specimen. But, his body isn't meant to be like that regardless of artstyle. It's not meant for symmetry or anything like that.Also, I just feel it culturally doesn't fit. Even if it's called kryptonIan martial arts the movements, it just feel eastern in a very watered down manner and familiar to me in a bad way. It feels like samurai jack wearing boxing gloves. It's funny and wierd. But It can't be something i can take seriously . Superman doesn't have any roots in any manner to the east. His martial philosophy can be greek, roman, judeo-Christian, western ... Etc because that's the cultural origin of the character.

    This was plain wierd for me. I know Christians do the joint hand prayer position as well. But, this had way different context. and it's done differently than Christian way. This felt like yoga and karate mixed. At the end he basically does a 'pranamasana'. It even describes the emotional state required for it in the dialogue box. It felt wierd to me from superman who feels entirely a western guy . Forgive me, if i am being narrow but i don't see someone that has a hellenic or European base doing that.that's why i feel superman can be an olympian. It wouldn't feel out of place.
    I just don't see superman sitting somewhere in 'samadhi' or finding the 'dao' using taichi like the images below.


    These are not physical exercises. They aren't meant for making one physically strong. Superman is supposed to be the physical guy like hercules or Samson.
    Granted, i might not feel this way if kryptonIan martial art was something entirely unfamiliar to me or clark himself landed in asia somewhere.Also,i am not saying superman can't be spiritual. For superman , the work he does should lead to his 'wu wei' or 'samadhi' or whatever state.i feel superman does what he does like saving people, testing himself physically, writing.. Etc continuously and repeatedly until he reaches that state.essentially, superman is a 'do your duty and that's your beauty' kind of guy.
    It's wierd i don't feel this way when doctor strange and spiderman use the 'karana mudra'(the hand sign used by both) or 'chakras' and 'yantra' . Maybe it's because of ditko does his research. And Doctor strange is very much tied to tibet. He feels indian(i am talking about the subcontinent and not the country ) to me,culturally i mean. Even if doctor strange is an American dude.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 12-07-2019 at 02:20 PM.

  3. #198
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    King of the World gives context to that though. He doesn't just randomly come up with the idea. He also explains that it's in tandem with Kryptonian science.

    So is the idea that Superman is "too American" for an eastern influence to limited aspects of Kryptonian culture? I'm not sure I get a different point made. Pulp characters like the Shadow and Savage again incorporated eastern practices and mental powers jointly and seperately, and they were influential to the creators of Superman. Like them, many of his early adventures involved eastern mysticism and while he was generally adversarial, it was still a part of his world. He's been a "world citizen" since the 60s at least and it was pretty much a natural extension of his mental power to ascertain language instantly as well as being a specimen physically capable of long distance travel. That goes along with his mind control, hypnotism, ventriloquism, and general force of will based powers. He's never really been just physical.

    King does double down on the physical though, and he also goes super hard on the American upbringing of the character both in stories and in interviews. But I don't think they have to clash, especially as so far the majority of his Superman experience has taken the character off planet, into more exotic territories and cultures. I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean as far as what's earned or not though. The old mental abilities just came with the territory whereas his Torquasm Rao or Vo abilities came from practice. That's a reason why I wish the challenges thought up for this story weren't just so physical. I can imagine King liked All Star... where those enhanced physical powers meant jack to the Sphinx. Those were the type of labors I like. If people assume he's perfect or "too American to expand his horizons" then I also have to imagine him being unfairly knocked for being brawn over brains.
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  4. #199
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    King of the World gives context to that though. He doesn't just randomly come up with the idea. He also explains that it's in tandem with Kryptonian science.

    So is the idea that Superman is "too American" for an eastern influence to limited aspects of Kryptonian culture? I'm not sure I get a different point made. Pulp characters like the Shadow and Savage again incorporated eastern practices and mental powers jointly and seperately, and they were influential to the creators of Superman. Like them, many of his early adventures involved eastern mysticism and while he was generally adversarial, it was still a part of his world. He's been a "world citizen" since the 60s at least and it was pretty much a natural extension of his mental power to ascertain language instantly as well as being a specimen physically capable of long distance travel. That goes along with his mind control, hypnotism, ventriloquism, and general force of will based powers. He's never really been just physical.

    King does double down on the physical though, and he also goes super hard on the American upbringing of the character both in stories and in interviews. But I don't think they have to clash, especially as so far the majority of his Superman experience has taken the character off planet, into more exotic territories and cultures. I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean as far as what's earned or not though. The old mental abilities just came with the territory whereas his Torquasm Rao or Vo abilities came from practice. That's a reason why I wish the challenges thought up for this story weren't just so physical. I can imagine King liked All Star... where those enhanced physical powers meant jack to the Sphinx. Those were the type of labors I like. If people assume he's perfect or "too American to expand his horizons" then I also have to imagine him being unfairly knocked for being brawn over brains.
    No, i don't mean it like that. The thing is it's called kryptonIan martial arts. But, it is basically Wikipedia version of mix of different forms and techniques used in eastern cultures. I am not saying he is 'too american' to expand his horizon. I just feel it should be done in a more honest way. Superman has characters that are eastern kenan kong, byakko, gunshin, karate kid... Etc. Have him actually learn things like doctor strange.Don't pretend like it's kryptonIan. If you want a kryptonIan martial art make something up. all that's required is imagination.

    As for superman being a world citizen. Well, that needs a bit of work in my opinion. He does cross borders and helps out. But, rarely have i seen superman handle problems of other countries and cultures (cultures have different boundaries than nation states) .he does it ofcourse i have read it in birthright and he did stay in japan.but,that was like a little short vacation trip. Nothing makes me feel like he connected with the culture and people or know their symbolisms, problems they face.. Etc.

    And i don't mean it as a brain and brawn thing either. If i have implied that was not my intention. All i am saying is that,they put a lot of emphasis on order.while, Eastern philosophies puts more emphasis on harmony(broadly speaking) . The dragons and serpents are prime symbols of both cultures. While, west considers them bad and something to be feared, east does not.This isn't something new either the greeks feared the hydra and the Indians worshipped the multiheaded snakes called 'naga' . Chaos and asymmetry is not something we find undesirable . I just think superman is someone who puts more emphasis on physical which includes intellect. Superman hasn't been the guy that puts emphasis on the spiritual side. I could never see him like the buddha like figure. Not to say he isn't wise. But, his wisdom has been rooted western ethics and culture.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 12-07-2019 at 11:12 PM.

  5. #200
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Every made up culture is made up from culture. Besides what's earned we have circled back to what I think are your initial criticisms, but that again goes back to Torquasm specifically not being a martial art or religious practice. I commend your understanding of eastern practices, but I think your knowledge leads to overreaching as it goes into the imagery but what you cite doesn't speak to familiarity with those circa 1998-2001 Superman stories and I don't at this point think there's a contrast with this one unless you mean to ultimately just mention how King stuck to his own background to write this Superman. Apologies for the Torquasm tangent.

    Being a world citizen doesn't put the onus on Superman. The "savior" or "world cop" angles are highly problematic. I think since King did have a Q and A with Superman he probably might as well have used the opportunity to specifically mention how Superman doesn't solve world problems... or even problems that the U.S. face. He's here for the weird stuff, the rest is on us.
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  6. #201
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Every made up culture is made up from culture. Besides what's earned we have circled back to what I think are your initial criticisms, but that again goes back to Torquasm specifically not being a martial art or religious practice. I commend your understanding of eastern practices, but I think your knowledge leads to overreaching as it goes into the imagery but what you cite doesn't speak to familiarity with those circa 1998-2001 Superman stories and I don't at this point think there's a contrast with this one unless you mean to ultimately just mention how King stuck to his own background to write this Superman. Apologies for the Torquasm tangent.

    Being a world citizen doesn't put the onus on Superman. The "savior" or "world cop" angles are highly problematic. I think since King did have a Q and A with Superman he probably might as well have used the opportunity to specifically mention how Superman doesn't solve world problems... or even problems that the U.S. face. He's here for the weird stuff, the rest is on us.
    No, i don't mean "world cop" kind of thing. More like "one of us" kind of thing . For instance, i just want superman to go to different parts of the world experience things from their eyes, you know. Experience things like extreme poverty.See,superman became a vigilante. It is already a problematic affair. But, we have to realise he cannot just let things go. It is murky area. We shouldn't agree to superman's choice to be a vigilante. But, only sympathise with its reason.because he cannot Standby while people gets exploited and injustice happen is his reasons for doing it. That's fundamental ethos of the character.he can't not help people. Especially, those that can't defend themselves.

    Experiencing something is different from merely viewing something like extreme poverty . Superman did touch on it in peace on earth but its entirely his world view.i just want superman to be more profound. Something like 'rare earth' (it's a youtube channel) where the host goes to different places for telling the most sometimes obscure stories about different people in the world. It helps that clark is a journalist. I just want stories where experiences things like the Cambodian landmines museum, the slums, corruption is treated as norm .. Etc. The world has many stories. I don't think superman has ever truly run with that concept. Clark is a humanist and a writer. Superman stories can be about us(mankind) contradictions and all, as well as superman. So, his world citizenship and his journalism job can and should go hand in hand. Superman can empathise and legitimately tries to talk with people. But, he always tries(keywords) to keep balanced neutral stance(well as much as a vigilante who fights for the little guy can, anyways).
    For me, superman's mission statement is sort of like ashitaka's from 'Princess Mononoke' to see the world with eyes unclouded by hate. His black and white morality helps with that.
    "You must see with eyes unclouded by hate. See the good in that which is evil, and the evil in that which is good. Pledge yourself to neither side, but vow instead to preserve the balance that exists between the two." - Hayao Miyazaki
    This should be Clark's arc.

  7. #202
    Spectacular Member Marvel Man's Avatar
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    I have a little question, sorry if it was asked before but I didn't find it.

    In the first chapter, Batman told Clark about a home invasion with an older couple and two girls murdered, another one at Gotham Mercy and the last one, kidnapped by an alien. Later in this very same chapter, Clark told Perry White about this case, and they clearly said that happened in Gotham.
    Now, from chapter 3 onwards, in the recap text of each issue, it's said that "a young girl was kidnapped from Metropolis". Later on, with the Flash race, the girls said that she read the whole story about it in the Daily Planet, "which is the paper we get there", a paper from Metropolis. Then she explained that she was sent to the Lex Luthor Center for Displaced Children, which I suppose is in Metropolis.
    Then, we reach chapter 9, where we can see the girl being kidnapped, the scene is totally different of what Alice's sister descrive in the first chapter in the hospital, but the girls are the same. Here, they are not hidden in the brushes around their home, they were in a park full of children.
    Then, in the final chapter, Superman brings Alice back to... Metropolis.

    So, my question is: Is Alice from Gotham or from Metropolis? And where she was kidnapped? What I'm thinking right now is that Alice was from Metropolis but her foster house was in Gotham and that she was actually kidnapped from Gotham and not Metropolis, even if the recap text says otherwise.

    Thanks for your answers!
    Last edited by Marvel Man; 12-15-2019 at 06:23 PM.

  8. #203
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvel Man View Post
    I have a little question, sorry if it was asked before but I didn't find it.

    In the first chapter, Batman told Clark about a home invasion with an older couple and two girls murdered, another one at Gotham Mercy and the last one, kidnapped by an alien. Later in this very same chapter, Clark told Perry White about this case, and they clearly said that happened in Gotham.
    Now, from chapter 3 onwards, in the recap text of each issue, it's said that "a young girl was kidnapped from Metropolis". Later on, with the Flash race, the girls said that she read the whole story about it in the Daily Planet, "which is the paper we get there", a paper from Metropolis. Then she explained that she was sent to the Lex Luthor Center for Displaced Children, which I suppose is in Metropolis.
    Then, we reach chapter 9, where we can see the girl being kidnapped, the scene is totally different of what Alice's sister descrive in the first chapter in the hospital, but the girls are the same. Here, they are not hidden in the brushes around their home, they were in a park full of children.
    Then, in the final chapter, Superman bring Alice back to... Metropolis.

    So, my question is: Is Alice from Gotham or from Metropolis? And where she was kidnapped? What I'm thinking right now is that Alice was from Metropolis but her foster house was in Gotham and that she was actually kidnapped from Gotham and not Metropolis, even if the recap text says otherwise.

    Thanks for your answers!
    It's probably a mistake. Your explanation makes sense, though.
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  9. #204
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    She was originally from Gotham. Anything that says otherwise is probably a typo.
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