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  1. #1
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Default Kill Doom To Keep The 616 From Secret Wars?

    Could you have averted the Incursions if you had gone back in time and killed Dr Doom?

    The only one it could be who could do it is Dr Strange, because no one on Earth knew who the Great Destroyer was, except Stephen. My feeling is, Strange could have remembered the Time Machine from the Savage Land in Age Of Ultron, and gone there, travelled back in time and removed Doom so Victor couldnít meet Molecule Man and start Incursions.

    The only problem is the Paradox. Stephen would never have found out about Incursions unless they had already started, and if you start Incursions, the rule is, they cannot be reversed by Time travel? We reversed the destruction of Earth by the Phoenix in Iron Age HC by Time travel. We reversed the destruction of Earth in Age of Ultron with Time travel. So why couldnít we reverse Secret Wars with Time travel by killing Doom at the appropriate time?

  2. #2
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Killing Doom wouldn't have ended the incursions. It would have ensured the Beyonders detonated the entire Multiverse without obstacle.

    While Dooms actions caused a cascade effect, he still ruined the Beyonders initial plan, and ultimately provided a means to recover what was thought lost.
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  3. #3
    Fantastic Member Haquim's Avatar
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    Your logic escapes me: Doom's actions were what stopped the beyonders from detonating the whole multiverse. And Doom discovered what needed to be done because Mr Fantastic warned him not to get involved with them. Problem is they were trying to win the game (stop the incursions), something that could not be done, and if it were possible it would have led to disastrous consequences (the whole of reality being erased in one big explosion). Doom decided he had better not to lose it (save a part of reality from complete anihilation) and acted accordingly, ruining the beyonder's great experiment and ultimately defeating them. Killing Doom before he becomes Rabum Alal would have ultimately ensured the complete destruction of the multiverse instead of saving a small part of it.

  4. #4
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    I think part of Hickman's story was that there probably was a way of surviving the Incursions and saving the multiverse. Maybe it did involve killing Doom at some point.

    But it was never going to come to pass because the heroes weren't getting their shit together. They were too busy trying to do their own things rather than actually finding that solution.

    Doom had his shit together and saved everyone because of it.

  5. #5
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Funny thing about time travel. Why just stop there? Why not go back even further before the Beyonders were ever made aware of the 616 multiverse? Sise-Neg and others have all travelled back to the dawn of time. He could have easily made a simple diversion; a pit stop. Strange wouldn't need to travel back in time, he just has to reach out to Sise-Neg. Given their combined magical prowess and intel, none of this story happens. (But perhaps a far worse omniverse-threatening disaster does.)

  6. #6

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    Why do people believe that the incursions would be the end? All of these characters have died or been unmade before. The same God that saved the FF from Doom would save the 616. They are the favored experiment. Instead a monster like Doom is given credit for a makeshift hellscape.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    It just goes to show that everything in 616 happened as it was intended to happen...until the next cosmic retcon.

  8. #8
    Amazing Member
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    You don't like Doom, so you're allowing your personal feelings to interfere with facts of the story. Look, nobody thinks Doom is now a great person and is absolved of everything
    he's done, but he did figure out a way to stop the destruction of everything. Give credit where it's due. You can thank Reed for hurting Doom's pride enough to want to do his
    own thing.

  9. #9
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Funny thing about time travel. Why just stop there? Why not go back even further before the Beyonders were ever made aware of the 616 multiverse? Sise-Neg and others have all travelled back to the dawn of time. He could have easily made a simple diversion; a pit stop. Strange wouldn't need to travel back in time, he just has to reach out to Sise-Neg. Given their combined magical prowess and intel, none of this story happens. (But perhaps a far worse omniverse-threatening disaster does.)
    The butterfly effect of time travel can sometimes create scenarios where the cure is worse than the discease. Granted there's probably not a whole lot of things worse than the Beyonders destroying the multiverse... so this is a scenario where it might be worth the risk. But generally speaking if you can resolve things without changing history, you're probably better off doing that.

  10. #10
    Incredible Member darthjoker's Avatar
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    anyone feels that the current Doctor Strange is not the same Doctor/Sheriff strange that died in Secret Wars? I mean pre-secret wars Doc strange was powerful, sheriff strange was powerful. Current doctor strange(after secret wars) feels like an amateur, yes, he is depowered, empirikul etc etc. Still feels more like he is just starting to learn magic.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthjoker View Post
    anyone feels that the current Doctor Strange is not the same Doctor/Sheriff strange that died in Secret Wars? I mean pre-secret wars Doc strange was powerful, sheriff strange was powerful. Current doctor strange(after secret wars) feels like an amateur, yes, he is depowered, empirikul etc etc. Still feels more like he is just starting to learn magic.
    A lot of the reasoning for that was the different take on him when ANAD started. Different creative teams will have different takes on the character and some creative teams are simply not good choices for some characters. Some will be woefully mishandled, which more or less is what happened to Doctor Strange.
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  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The butterfly effect of time travel can sometimes create scenarios where the cure is worse than the discease. Granted there's probably not a whole lot of things worse than the Beyonders destroying the multiverse... so this is a scenario where it might be worth the risk. But generally speaking if you can resolve things without changing history, you're probably better off doing that.
    No doubt, the butterfly effect all but ensures unforeseen consequences EXCEPT by someone who is truly cosmically aware. There are few individuals outside of TOAA who can say that, though.

    There's also the running narrative that any change always produces a negative consequence or externality, simply because the actors involved are flawed beings. The philosophe in me thinks that if a truly perfect being whose every act yielded only perfect results were to travel back in time to affect an event, ultimately the consequences of said act would all be perfect as well. The flaw would be in the perceptions of flawed beings who try to interpret said consequences. Too deep for a Monday?

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Things Fall Apart View Post
    Killing Doom wouldn't have ended the incursions. It would have ensured the Beyonders detonated the entire Multiverse without obstacle.

    While Dooms actions caused a cascade effect, he still ruined the Beyonders initial plan, and ultimately provided a means to recover what was thought lost.


    Quote Originally Posted by Haquim View Post
    Your logic escapes me: Doom's actions were what stopped the beyonders from detonating the whole multiverse. And Doom discovered what needed to be done because Mr Fantastic warned him not to get involved with them. Problem is they were trying to win the game (stop the incursions), something that could not be done, and if it were possible it would have led to disastrous consequences (the whole of reality being erased in one big explosion). Doom decided he had better not to lose it (save a part of reality from complete anihilation) and acted accordingly, ruining the beyonder's great experiment and ultimately defeating them. Killing Doom before he becomes Rabum Alal would have ultimately ensured the complete destruction of the multiverse instead of saving a small part of it.
    Sorry for the late replies guys.

    A lot of this all depends on some wording by Hickman on when the Molecule Men all explode destroying the Multiverse. As I understand it, and correct me if I’m wrong, the Incursion process only got started 14 years ago Marvel time, (at the first appearance of Owen Reece in FF#20). But, the Beyonders had set the Molecule Men to simultaneously explode 25 years Marvel time after the Reece’s were implanted. That means there is still 11 years Marvel time left from today before the Reece’s all explode if nothing was done by Rabum Alal. So killing Doom in the past forestalls Multiverse collapse for another 11 years Marvel time, and allows the heroes to formulate some process against that from happening.

    But that’s just esoteric reasoning, because Secret Wars 2015 has more to do with what Marvel wanted to do with ANAD. I’m just looking at reversing ANAD.

  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blunt Guy View Post
    You don't like Doom, so you're allowing your personal feelings to interfere with facts of the story. Look, nobody thinks Doom is now a great person and is absolved of everything
    he's done, but he did figure out a way to stop the destruction of everything. Give credit where it's due. You can thank Reed for hurting Doom's pride enough to want to do his
    own thing.
    Has nothing to do with my feelings for Doom, I like the guy and want him in the MU. It’s just about how to avoid Secret Wars 2015. You could look at Dooms actions as having preserved sections of the Multiverse that Reed Richards was able to recapture as the ANAD. I am looking at this in the long term though, and seeing that history may see Secret Wars 2015 as a disaster by Doom/Richards for making this ANAD universe in the first place. It depends on how ANAD is viewed in the context of Marvel culture; whether ANAD is viable, or unviable. I obviously see ANAD as unviable, like DC’s 52, or subsequent reboots. I feel like don’t mess with the MU under any circumstances. To me Secret Wars 2015 And ANAD is a What If?

  15. #15
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    No doubt, the butterfly effect all but ensures unforeseen consequences EXCEPT by someone who is truly cosmically aware. There are few individuals outside of TOAA who can say that, though.

    There's also the running narrative that any change always produces a negative consequence or externality, simply because the actors involved are flawed beings. The philosophe in me thinks that if a truly perfect being whose every act yielded only perfect results were to travel back in time to affect an event, ultimately the consequences of said act would all be perfect as well. The flaw would be in the perceptions of flawed beings who try to interpret said consequences. Too deep for a Monday?
    Practically every what if in existance would support that theory. It's almost to the point where if Stark would order a Pastrami sandwich instead of turkey for lunch one day, the world would end.

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