Kill Doom To Keep The 616 From Secret Wars?

[jackolover]

Practically every what if in existance would support that theory. It's almost to the point where if Stark would order a Pastrami sandwich instead of turkey for lunch one day, the world would end.

We saw the simple act of removing Hank Pym from history with his Ultron robot in Age Of Ultron, and the disastrous consequence that had. Tony! Don’t eat the sandwich!

[Michael Watkins]

We saw the simple act of removing Hank Pym from history with his Ultron robot in Age Of Ultron, and the disastrous consequence that had. Tony! Don’t eat the sandwich!

all we saw was that they didn't go back far enough. they should have killed Pym prior to him becoming a scientist.

[SuperiorIronman]

The problem with killing Hank Pym is that it eliminates a lot of his legacy. Bendis for all his faults actually did put in a lot of effort into showing how things could've gone had Hank Pym's legacy (Ultron, Vision, etc) never had been created. The incident also resulted in its fair share of what if? scenarios. That is to say that when a choice is made in the Marvel universe a similar choice is made in one of it's adjacent universes.

It results in a number of universes where another Avenger is killed instead of Hank and this results in things like;
Iron man: Infinite armor wars which results in mass casualties.
Captain America: A second American Civil War where the Punisher has to become Captain America under the command of the Illuminati.
Janet van Dyne: A more brutal Ultron to protect the world where Hank believed he failed resulting in Earth becoming home to Ultrons who have superseded Humans as the dominant lifeforms.

And then you have the people Hank has saved like Curt Connor's son/Spider-man, creating the first Wasp, Pym Particles, Scott Lang remains a criminal and or his daughter dies, The future YellowJacket never warns the Avengers about the Kang corrupted Tony Stark, Jocasta is never made, Raz can't become Giant man, The Avengers don't form, and killing Hank early enough prevents even Nadia.

[Michael Watkins]

The problem with killing Hank Pym is that it eliminates a lot of his legacy. Bendis for all his faults actually did put in a lot of effort into showing how things could've gone had Hank Pym's legacy (Ultron, Vision, etc) never had been created. The incident also resulted in its fair share of what if? scenarios. That is to say that when a choice is made in the Marvel universe a similar choice is made in one of it's adjacent universes.

It results in a number of universes where another Avenger is killed instead of Hank and this results in things like;
Iron man: Infinite armor wars which results in mass casualties.
Captain America: A second American Civil War where the Punisher has to become Captain America under the command of the Illuminati.
Janet van Dyne: A more brutal Ultron to protect the world where Hank believed he failed resulting in Earth becoming home to Ultrons who have superseded Humans as the dominant lifeforms.

And then you have the people Hank has saved like Curt Connor's son/Spider-man, creating the first Wasp, Pym Particles, Scott Lang remains a criminal and or his daughter dies, The future YellowJacket never warns the Avengers about the Kang corrupted Tony Stark, Jocasta is never made, Raz can't become Giant man, The Avengers don't form, and killing Hank early enough prevents even Nadia.

Didn't Connors eat his son? The least useful part of Raz are his Giant-Man powers. He was unemployed because of Pym. Jocasta hasn't really done much. The avengers or a team like it would have arose out of necessity; just like it did all of the times Hank and Jan weren't around. Scott still is a criminal. Cassie died because of Pym's legacy. Janet might have become an even greater hero without hank's involvement. She has every resource that Kate bishop has.

[CentralPower]

Not all "what if?" changes have a negative outcome. (There are plenty of better alternate timelines that have been shown over the years.) But, the worse outcomes tend to make for better comics, so they get more page time in aggregate.


And, the point of Hickman's run was that there was not stopping the incursions. (It was not a question of winning, but losing with class.)

[JudicatorPrime]

Not all "what if?" changes have a negative outcome. (There are plenty of better alternate timelines that have been shown over the years.) But, the worse outcomes tend to make for better comics, so they get more page time in aggregate.


And, the point of Hickman's run was that there was not stopping the incursions. (It was not a question of winning, but losing with class.)

Hickman would have hated Captain Kirk. ("I don't believe in the no win scenario.")

[jackolover]

all we saw was that they didn't go back far enough. they should have killed Pym prior to him becoming a scientist.

I still think Pym denied his Ultron, was the significant thing in history to cause all that chaos. Never making the Pym particle, is that what you mean? Never being Antman, never creating the Wasp, never having Egghead become a villain. These are significant things too, I know. I remember Hanks first mission was to thwart the commies stealing the research to make protection against radioactivity. If Hank didn’t do that, the commies could create super devices with radioactive nuclear attacks that their people could be protected from. Depends if you think the commies were capable of callous attacks on continental USA that way, and America was not.

[jackolover]

Didn't Connors eat his son? The least useful part of Raz are his Giant-Man powers. He was unemployed because of Pym. Jocasta hasn't really done much. The avengers or a team like it would have arose out of necessity; just like it did all of the times Hank and Jan weren't around. Scott still is a criminal. Cassie died because of Pym's legacy. Janet might have become an even greater hero without hank's involvement. She has every resource that Kate bishop has.

Janet’s father would have been killed by an alien invading from Mars, and there would have been no Ant-Man to stop it, and Janet would have just become another orphan, without Pym to come to for help. She was a dress maker.

[jackolover]

Talking about something as simple as Pym’s removal, if Doom was removed, (like Morgana Le Fey threatened to do when Victor was a boy), the Fantastic Four May have become something completely different as well. The Doom and Namor alliance would not have been conducive to Namors confidence through the years. No Doom War on Wakanda, Franklin would never had been to Hell, a different outcome in Secret Wars 1984, Reed Richards would have become a more confident adventurer never contesting with Victor, so he’d be free to do many more things Victor kept him from.

Victor would never have stolen the idea for Battleworld if he never fought in Secret Wars 1984, for making Barons in charge of domains stolen from Hoods Manifesto for Villains as Hoods gang, stole Osborns idea of a Cabal Of Villains, for his Barons on Battleworld. Because if Victor wasn’t there for SW 1984, there would be no template for any of Secret Wars 2015, let alone Victor being the vehicle for the Great Destroyer. And that is if breaking Space-Time due to Age Of Ultron ever occurred at all due to the changes of a removed Doom.

And Wanda would not have had the power to do Avengers Disassembled or HoM. That was all on Doom. The Avengers wouldn’t have been cut off by the UN, the CSA would have no reason to bug the FF over Latveria, because there would have been no Secret War 2004, because there would be no Despot Lucia von Badass, because some inconsequential King would rule inconsequential Latveria and never have been overthrown by Doom. There may have never been a Civil War, and heroes could have still not been traumatised by the SHRA. The Illuminati would not have met because of the Sentry, because the New Avengers wouldn’t have existed, so no Planet Hulk either because Maria Hill didn’t insist Tony do it, if there was no threat of SHRA, because there would be no Maria Hill, as Nick Fury didn’t get kicked out because of no SW2004. All would be well in SHIELD and Avengers without Doom.

Doom certainly had a lot to answer for.

[Triniking1234]

Janet’s father would have been killed by an alien invading from Mars, and there would have been no Ant-Man to stop it, and Janet would have just become another orphan, without Pym to come to for help. She was a dress maker.

Is this a Tales of Suspense reference?

[Michael Watkins]

I still think Pym denied his Ultron, was the significant thing in history to cause all that chaos. Never making the Pym particle, is that what you mean? Never being Antman, never creating the Wasp, never having Egghead become a villain. These are significant things too, I know. I remember Hanks first mission was to thwart the commies stealing the research to make protection against radioactivity. If Hank didn’t do that, the commies could create super devices with radioactive nuclear attacks that their people could be protected from. Depends if you think the commies were capable of callous attacks on continental USA that way, and America was not.

Pym is low on the list of radiation experts.

[Michael Watkins]

Janet’s father would have been killed by an alien invading from Mars, and there would have been no Ant-Man to stop it, and Janet would have just become another orphan, without Pym to come to for help. She was a dress maker.

That's reductive. Janet always had the fire and potential to become a hero. Her father's death was the motivation; not Hank. She would not have been a simple dressmaker.

[Mary Jay]

Pym is low on the list of radiation experts.

Irrelevant.

He was indeed hired to put together a device to protect against radioactivity to help fight the commies. Whether he's an expert or not, he did invent such a thing.

I though we were here to talk about Dr. Doom?

[Michael Watkins]

Irrelevant.

He was indeed hired to put together a device to protect against radioactivity to help fight the commies. Whether he's an expert or not, he did invent such a thing.

I though we were here to talk about Dr. Doom?

I didn't bring him up. But they could have hired a lot of characters to create radiation shielding. The outcome of the Cold War would not be impacted by Pym's absence.

[Mary Jay]

I didn't bring him up. But they could have hired a lot of characters to create radiation shielding. The outcome of the Cold War would not be impacted by Pym's absence.

Jack brought it up as an example of the butterfly effect, and he was correct in using that example.

The point of the butterfly effect is that anything, even in apparence insignificant, can potentially alter the timeline. Such small things as inventing something on a wednesday instead of a thursday could have an impact. Not visiting a fellow scientist with one's daughter could mean making contact earlier with an alien creature, at a time when one's daughter would be present in the room, resulting in both their deaths.

Anything could alter the time line.

Now, back to Doom