Detective Comics 983 Preview/Discussion (1st issue of Bryan Hill)

[The tall man]

I'm gonna ride or die with the villian. The family does make Batman weaker and dilute's his mission. Unpopular take but there it is.

[millernumber1]

I'm doubtful Duke will be hurt the entire arc

I think Duke's going to be up and about in the next issue - probably with a time-skip or magic healing tech like we saw in Batman and Robin Eternal.

I view this issue as trolling the folks who hate Duke with the comment "we weaken Batman". It just smells like an arc that deals with the trolls who hate certain (lets face it Duke) and proves to them that Batman is more than Nightwing & Robin & Batgirl.

With the way Duke looked in that issue-are we really expected to see him recover quick to do anything in a 6 part arc? Unless we learn his powers are like Static (cartoon version) where the sunlight can alter his abilities-like fast healing. Which could be the case if you noticed how fast he recovered in the All Star Batman backups after getting sliced in the chest.

As I said above - I think time-skip (there's no way that Cass will win the fight with Karma in this issue, though I'm hoping she is able to come off with a bit less damage) or healing tech will get them on their feet. I have also wondered if there's some healing ability in Duke.

I do think there's an element of commentary on fans who hate the "not-real" members of the Batfamily - but Karma so far isn't making comments like the Fan did in Priest's Justice League. He's saying Batman should be solo, not that Dick and Babs (and Damian) are the TRUE FAMILY.

I seriously doubt that Hill is interested in trolling anyone.

[Askia]

Agreed with it being a disappointing issue so far. To have Duke be almost fridged is not a good way to bring up interest in a character. DC has bendis with them, take a look at the bendis playbook for Miles Morales if they want these characters to succeed.

To be fair, Miles got to exist in a universe where he IS the Spiderman. And he still receives a lot of hate from die hard Spidey fans. I'm ok with Duke getting his feathers ruffled a bit as it provides an opportunity for growth. If he takes nothing, but L's(losses) this arc, then yea. We got problems.

[skyvolt2000]

I do think there's an element of commentary on fans who hate the "not-real" members of the Batfamily - but Karma so far isn't making comments like the Fan did in Priest's Justice League. He's saying Batman should be solo, not that Dick and Babs (and Damian) are the TRUE FAMILY.

I seriously doubt that Hill is interested in trolling anyone.

He's trolling. Because they have been trying to troll him for years especially about Michael Cray.

The family does make Batman weaker and dilute's his mission. Unpopular take but there it is.

Funny those complaints really took steam when his family got diverse with Damian, Duke, Harper, Batwing (1&2) and Azreal 2.

And how do they weaken his mission? If they all don't show up in his books every month?

Nightwing
Harley
Catwoman
Babs
Cass
Stephanie
Michael Lane
Azreal
Luke Fox
David Z
Chase
Gotham Central
Red Hood
Batwoman
Damian
Tim
Duke
Huntress 1
Huntress 2
Birds of Prey
Have all headline solo mini or ongoings.
How many issues have Duke appeared in Batman Rebirth? Folks were boycotting the book over him at one point.
Batman is still a solo guy with occasional help.

[Raijin]

What do you consider filler exactly? It's the 1st issue, Hill had to set up a initial conflict plus introduce the characters of the story. He didn't waste anytime doing so, I don't get this complaint.

You don't get it because you either don't want to or you simply don't agree. That's fine. I don't say things just to say things. The whole news bit at the beginning wasn't necessary, in MY opinion (I think I'm allowed to have one) That whole thing could've been explained through inner monologue or something. I never said this was a terrible issue, just disappointing.

[millernumber1]

He's trolling. Because they have been trying to troll him for years especially about Michael Cray.

Batman is still a solo guy with occasional help.

Michael Cray has only been going on for 7 issues, or about 8 months. And if you've interacted with Hill online, I don't see him being a troll. He'll push back on your arguments, he'll make his own arguments, but he's not making fun or doing things just to make people mad, which is how I read "trolling."

And I, obviously, think Batman is a family man.

[leo619]

To be fair, Miles got to exist in a universe where he IS the Spiderman. And he still receives a lot of hate from die hard Spidey fans. I'm ok with Duke getting his feathers ruffled a bit as it provides an opportunity for growth. If he takes nothing, but L's(losses) this arc, then yea. We got problems.

Oh I'm not saying Miles doesn't get a lot of hate, but that's an important point. You don't make Miles Morales to appease to the haters, because they're haters. In this same token, you don't make Duke to appease to the haters. You make these characters to appease the demographic who would be interested in these characters. Bendis realize that, and it's that notion as to why Miles is the biggest new character to come out in the last decade.

How did he do it? By making the character a heroic hero that battle against odds but most importantly won. Compare that to Cyborg who regularly gets ripped apart on a regular basis, and it makes perfect since while Miles Morales took off while Cyborg is still struggling. Instead, we're seeing a brand new character, with potential, being used as a fridge moment while the villain sounds like some of the haters you see on the forum. IMO, that's not how you create a popular character.

That's why I said use the bendis method. Bendis was successful because he made important minority characters who were valiant and most importantly, capable heroes that saved the day. They weren't used for fridging to give another character angst.

[lemonpeace]

That's a swing to the opposite end of the spectrum. No one said he had to be stealing the spotlight, but if people have a problem with Duke being heroic and not be a fridge motivator, that speaks more to the duke haters than anything else.

So I don't believe he's going to be hurt the entire arc, but when you're a new minority character and your purpose is to provide angst to the "main character.", don't be surprised if people aren't receptive to that display. Especially when bendis has shown how to do it the right way.

I agree with you, it does say more about the Duke haters than anything but unfortunately that's the constant complaint whenever Duke does anything and it tends to get echoed or parroted by new readers who haven't seen much from Duke. I've even seen people complain about Bruce calling him "son" in passing. With Miles he benefited from starting off as a main character out of continuity where as with Duke started as supporting character. I don't agree that they use him for angst for Batman because Duke's story (when they give him one) never really relies on Bruce's reaction to him. I think this is probably the closest instance of that but based on solicitations, he's gonna get back in the mix within the next couple issues. Most times Duke's either just around or trying to maintain his independence but more often than not he's just around. and it also doesn't help that, as the baby to Scott Snyder, he fell victim to Snyder's method of long game story telling where we only get bits and pieces at a time.

Funny those complaints really took steam when his family got diverse with Damian, Duke, Harper, Batwing (1&2) and Azreal 2.

And how do they weaken his mission? If they all don't show up in his books every month?

Nightwing
Harley
Catwoman
Babs
Cass
Stephanie
Michael Lane
Azreal
Luke Fox
David Z
Chase
Gotham Central
Red Hood
Batwoman
Damian
Tim
Duke
Huntress 1
Huntress 2
Birds of Prey
Have all headline solo mini or ongoings.
How many issues have Duke appeared in Batman Rebirth? Folks were boycotting the book over him at one point.
Batman is still a solo guy with occasional help.

That's a good point! Batman's been a solo act but he's always had back up and a lot of people didn't care when they were mainly just copy-pasting Bruce with some personality twists. What further confuses me is that, the biggest complaint about Batman is that he's too OP for just a man. So wouldn't him having a diverse support system makes sense because he's just one human man? Also, people keep saying the "extra" bat-characters weaken his mission but isn't his mission to fight crime? How do these characters stopping him from doing that? I think it just boils down to an unwillingness to embrace change.

Edit:

Oh I'm not saying Miles doesn't get a lot of hate, but that's an important point. You don't make Miles Morales to appease to the haters, because they're haters. In this same token, you don't make Duke to appease to the haters. You make these characters to appease the demographic who would be interested in these characters. Bendis realize that, and it's that notion as to why Miles is the biggest new character to come out in the last decade.

How did he do it? By making the character a heroic hero that battle against odds but most importantly won. Compare that to Cyborg who regularly gets ripped apart on a regular basis, and it makes perfect since while Miles Morales took off while Cyborg is still struggling. Instead, we're seeing a brand new character, with potential, being used as a fridge moment while the villain sounds like some of the haters you see on the forum. IMO, that's not how you create a popular character.

That's why I said use the bendis method. Bendis was successful because he made important minority characters who were valiant and most importantly, capable heroes that saved the day. They weren't used for fridging to give another character angst.

This is where you hit the nail right on the head! The problem I think they have with Duke is they haven't tapped into this mentality. Thus far, they try to make Duke too inoffensive to his detractors and it makes him come off as boring sometimes. I 100% agree, they need to double down on finding and appealing to his specific demographic. Give him a distinct voice and people will come. It worked for Jason Todd and it can work again.

[Aioros22]

Agreed with it being a disappointing issue so far. To have Duke be almost fridged is not a good way to bring up interest in a character. DC has bendis with them, take a look at the bendis playbook for Miles Morales if they want these characters to succeed.

To anyone who`s been following even remotely the bat books, Duke is a known character. To those are new, they`ll easily get he`s supposed to be the novice.

[oasis1313]

I think the Bat-Family makes The Batman stronger--they remind him that he's fighting FOR something, not just AGAINST something. IMHO, he wants a good world where the people around him (including Gotham) can be safe. It usually doesn't work out that way for him, though, Gotham being Gotham. As for Duke, meh. I'll be glad when DC gets tired of pushing him and he drifts off to Limbo.

[leo619]

I agree with you, it does say more about the Duke haters than anything but unfortunately that's the constant complaint whenever Duke does anything and it tends to get echoed or parroted by new readers who haven't seen much from Duke. I've even seen people complain about Bruce calling him "son" in passing. With Miles he benefited from starting off as a main character out of continuity where as with Duke started as supporting character. I don't agree that they use him for angst for Batman because Duke's story (when they give him one) never really relies on Bruce's reaction to him. I think this is probably the closest instance of that but based on solicitations, he's gonna get back in the mix within the next couple issues. Most times Duke's either just around or trying to maintain his independence but more often than not he's just around. and it also doesn't help that, as the baby to Scott Snyder, he fell victim to Snyder's method of long game story telling where we only get bits and pieces at a time.



That's a good point! Batman's been a solo act but he's always had back and a lot of people didn't care when they were mainly just copy-pasting Bruce with some personality twists. What further confuses me is that, the biggest complaint about Batman is that he's too OP for just a man. So wouldn't him having a diverse support system makes sense because he's just one human man? Also, people keep saying the "extra" bat-characters weaken his mission but isn't his mission to fight crime? How do these characters stopping him from doing that? I think it just boils down to an unwillingness to embrace change.

Edit:



This is where you hit the nail right on the head! The problem I think they have with Duke is they haven't tapped into this mentality. Thus far, they try to make Duke too inoffensive to his detractors and it makes him come off as boring sometimes. I 100% agree, they need to double down on finding and appealing to his specific demographic. Give him a distinct voice and people will come. It worked for Jason Todd and it can work again.

Oh I'm not saying his entire purpose was to give Batman angst, but that's never what fridging is about. Fridging is associated usually when a woman or minority character is hurt or killed in order to give a main character angst and motivation. I'm not saying that's a common occurrence but that is what happened here. Just like with Gamora from Avengers Infinity War, Gamora is very independent from Thanos, even though she was raised by him. She hates him. But her death was another example of fridging, killing her to give Thanos angst and motivation. The same applied here. And to have that happen to such a new character who we both know barely got any development since becoming the signal, and that's why I say it's starting off on the wrong foot.


With that said, completely agree with the second statement. Jane Thor sold better than regular Thor, and yet classic fans were so upset that they felt necessary to go to her appreciation thread to troll her. Almost every single successful legacy character from Marvel had to deal with the haters talking smack about the character, in varying degrees. But Bendis stuck to his guns, and that's why Miles and to a lesser RiRi became as successful as they did. Because he knew the audience wasn't the haters that are so resistant to change, but those that actively seek new characters as well as those who seek diverse characters.

To anyone who`s been following even remotely the bat books, Duke is a known character. To those are new, they`ll easily get he`s supposed to be the novice.

And again, Miles was a novice. That's no excuse. That's why I said, if you want your character to be successful, look at what Bendis did with miles and riri. Both were novices, but both were capable heroes that many within that demographic wanted to see. Something DC often doesn't seem to understand especially in regards to their minority characters. This was just another example of that.

[lemonpeace]

I think the Bat-Family makes The Batman stronger--they remind him that he's fighting FOR something, not just AGAINST something. IMHO, he wants a good world where the people around him (including Gotham) can be safe. It usually doesn't work out that way for him, though, Gotham being Gotham. As for Duke, meh. I'll be glad when DC gets tired of pushing him and he drifts off to Limbo.

Can you elaborate? Because I never understood how DC's "pushing" him when (outside of We are Robin and his mini) he barely does anything but exist on page.

[Chubistian]

Well, it didn't help Duke to be created in a time where a lot of popular Batfamily members were missing. But a huge mistake that some people do is assuming that Duke is taking away a spot from their favorite bat member. If DC didn't pay attention to Duke, it wouldn't mean that they would pay it to, let's say, Tim Drake. If DC doesn't want to give x batfamily member attention, it's their decission, it doesn't mean that Duke is taking away anything. Also, it's always important to remember that probably every batmember has been pointed out as taking away a role for someone's beloved character at some time. Just look at the preludes for the wedding, where Tim Drake didn't get an special. Is it Damian's fault? Of course not, it's DC who didn't want to give him one for whatever reason. If Damian didn't exist, would Tim have received an special? There's not way of knowing

[millernumber1]

I think the Bat-Family makes The Batman stronger--they remind him that he's fighting FOR something, not just AGAINST something. IMHO, he wants a good world where the people around him (including Gotham) can be safe. It usually doesn't work out that way for him, though, Gotham being Gotham. As for Duke, meh. I'll be glad when DC gets tired of pushing him and he drifts off to Limbo.

Agreed! Batman doesn't fight in the past, he fights for the future and present - to save people now, and to make a better world!

[lemonpeace]

Oh I'm not saying his entire purpose was to give Batman angst, but that's never what fridging is about. Fridging is associated usually when a woman or minority character is hurt or killed in order to give a main character angst and motivation. I'm not saying that's a common occurrence but that is what happened here. Just like with Gamora from Avengers Infinity War, Gamora is very independent from Thanos, even though she was raised by him. She hates him. But her death was another example of fridging, killing her to give Thanos angst and motivation. The same applied here. And to have that happen to such a new character who we both know barely got any development since becoming the signal, and that's why I say it's starting off on the wrong foot.


With that said, completely agree with the second statement. Jane Thor sold better than regular Thor, and yet classic fans were so upset that they felt necessary to go to her appreciation thread to troll her. Almost every single successful legacy character from Marvel had to deal with the haters talking smack about the character, in varying degrees. But Bendis stuck to his guns, and that's why Miles and to a lesser RiRi became as successful as they did. Because he knew the audience wasn't the haters that are so resistant to change, but those that actively seek new characters as well as those who seek diverse characters.







And again, Miles was a novice. That's no excuse. That's why I said, if you want your character to be successful, look at what Bendis did with miles and riri. Both were novices, but both were capable heroes that many within that demographic wanted to see. Something DC often doesn't seem to understand especially in regards to their minority characters. This was just another example of that.

I didn't see it as that but I understand where you're coming from. I saw it as a way to show the stakes of the situation while giving Duke a challenge to overcome but looking at it through that lens, i agree, they could have handled it in a way that didn't completely take away his agency for the sake of Bruce's motivation. Especially with a villain that all but outright says that's what they're doing.