Is LoSH an idea whose time has passed?

[DrNewGod]

There was a time that The Legion of Superheroes was a big enough deal to squeeze Superboy out of his own feature. Twice. That's all way in the rearview mirror.

Unquestionably, the problems for The Legion began with Crisis on Infinite Earths; if anybody took it in the shorts worse than Hawkman after 1986's mega-event, my vote would be for the Legion. But there's probably more going on than just the backstory-muddling.

I can't help thinking that one of The Legion's real problems is the same one that plagues the original Star Trek: their future just isn't all that convincingly futuristic anymore. From its introduction, the Legion's environment was basically the contemporary USA with funny looking buildings, flying cars, and a few people that were supposed to be aliens, but were really just characterized as odd-looking humans. As the average comics customer has aged, that view of the future is less satisfying. It's rather like riding Disney's original Monsanto House of the Future (which debuted around the same time as The Legion), a quaint amusement, but not one that's likely to sustain a steady appetite. Not only has the advancement of technology we've witnessed in our lifetimes made the state of The Legion's future look unconvincing, correcting that problem sort of undermines the whole premise, which is another of The Legion's real problems.

If we adequately advance the technology of The Legion's environment sufficiently to accommodate a galaxy-traveling culture, technologies would almost certainly have eclipsed the abilities of all The Legionnaires (with the possible exceptions of Mon-el, Ultra Boy, and Saturn Girl). If such applications are available, why would there be a need for The Legion? Now, it's certainly possible to write stories that still let The Legion shine in such an environment, but not easy to do so on a consistent basis. It's especially difficult to consistently do so in a manner that's both convincing, and relatable.

We didn't demand quite so much out of our comics scifi back in 1958, or even 1986. But The Legion of Superheroes may be one of those ideas that the world has outgrown.

If it's not, how could it be fixed for the future?

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[Agent Z]

Updates would be needed. Showing more non humanoid aliens as well as diverse humans would be good. Aesthetics in the future also need to be changed

[AJpyro]

No. Believability is not that needed. Legion is a great idea and fantastic future to watch grow, fall, and rise again.

[Trey Strain]

There was a time that The Legion of Superheroes was a big enough deal to squeeze Superboy out of his own feature. Twice. That's all way in the rearview mirror.

Unquestionably, the problems for The Legion began with Crisis on Infinite Earths; if anybody took it in the shorts worse than Hawkman after 1986's mega-event, my vote would be for the Legion. But there's probably more going on than just the backstory-muddling.

I can't help thinking that one of The Legion's real problems is the same one that plagues the original Star Trek: their future just isn't all that convincingly futuristic anymore. From its introduction, the Legion's environment was basically the contemporary USA with funny looking buildings, flying cars, and a few people that were supposed to be aliens, but were really just characterized as odd-looking humans. As the average comics customer has aged, that view of the future is less satisfying. It's rather like riding Disney's original Monsanto House of the Future (which debuted around the same time as The Legion), a quaint amusement, but not one that's likely to sustain a steady appetite. Not only has the advancement of technology we've witnessed in our lifetimes made the state of The Legion's future look unconvincing, correcting that problem sort of undermines the whole premise, which is another of The Legion's real problems.

If we adequately advance the technology of The Legion's environment sufficiently to accommodate a galaxy-traveling culture, technologies would almost certainly have eclipsed the abilities of all The Legionnaires (with the possible exceptions of Mon-el, Ultra Boy, and Saturn Girl). If such applications are available, why would there be a need for The Legion? Now, it's certainly possible to write stories that still let The Legion shine in such an environment, but not easy to do so on a consistent basis. It's especially difficult to consistently do so in a manner that's both convincing, and relatable.

We didn't demand quite so much out of our comics scifi back in 1958, or even 1986. But The Legion of Superheroes may be one of those ideas that the world has outgrown.

If it's not, how could it be fixed for the future?

images.jpg

Don't even try to depict a distant future that's convincing. That's not going to happen. Besides, there was nothing about that setting that was essential to the comic. Just bring them to this time period, along with the JSA. Problem solved. And as an added benefit, you could then use them in crossovers.

One fellow who posts here got so upset when I proposed that idea that he's still mad about it. But it makes perfect sense, and it might get LoS back into print as a successful ongoing.

In fact, I think Doomsday Clock might be working toward that. Some folks at DC read this forum, you know.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

Yeah I have suggested that once before to have them in the current day and got the same push back. Having a set future is never good for a World that is subject to so many reality warps. And honestly the Legion is Superman’s future, if main heroes no longer are bound to staying in the 30’s or 40’s why should they be a constant future? The Universe is big enough now and dominated by Lanterns.

[CaptCleghorn]

The Legion is a mix of retro-future and progressive ideas. What we accepted back in 1958 obviously won't fly now (even with a ring), and ebven the series from 30 years ago seems dated.

As has been said, more non-humanoid aliens are needed. We also need a wider variety of attitudes and cultures to make a federation of planets seem like both an awe-inspiring and fragile thing. A different skin color and powers don't make a good alien race anymore. That's true. But we also need something to bring us into the story and setting. The tram isn't like the Justice League and handling it as such limits the potential. Think of the original Blackhawks or a less stereotypical Howling Commandos. A team of different races, all with their own attitudes and beliefs and moralities. yes, like Star Trek, there will be 21st century analogies to every race offered in this franchise. But the differences of opinion is timeless. The diversity of a cast is timeless.

Every superhero comic has an amount of suspension of disbelief. The best series focus on what is real and believable. I'd want to see questions asked in a Legion series. What can be done when two incompatible species come together? If a race has a group-mind, what does being an individual mean? And yes, this is what I'd like to see. A bunch of spacemen with rayguns doesn't do it for me anymore. YMMV.

[Lee Stone]

The Legion's time will be up when Star Trek, Star Wars and the whole sci-fi genre are no longer viable as entertainment.

The Legion is basically a space opera with a superhero skin. That's where it excells.
There are basically two sides of Space Opera. One where the protagonists work with a utopian government, such as in Star Trek, and one where the protagonists work against an oppressive government, such as in Star Wars. And these can easily be flipped by having the power shift from one major force to another.

The Star Trek model was prevalent during the Levitz run. And is the one it's been most successful with.
However, right now, I think the Star Wars model would be the one that could benefit the Legion most with current readers. Have the Khunds and/or Dominators wipe out most of the United Planets and set up the Legion of Super-Villains as their policing force. Splinter the LoSH out as they're forced into hiding and reintroduce them slowly to get new readers up to speed.
Then have the Legion fight against the oppressive government to win back power for the United Planets.

And as long as the series is kept fresh by switching back and forth between the Star Trek/Star Wars models every ten years or so, it could last as long as sci-fi fantasy continues to be a genre.

[scary harpy]

As a nice-white-kids club for Superboy? Yes, that time has long since passed!

As DC’s version of the Hunger Games? I hope that time has passed too. I find it difficult to invest too much interest in any character knowing that s/he could die in any story arc.

As a far distinct future that has no influence on the current DCU? I think that’s another problem that needs to be addressed. I feel the LSH’s remoteness from the Justice League prevents wider appreciation. I think greater interaction between the two might increase the Legion’s popularity.

I understand not interfering in your own history…but I don’t understand why Earth 2’s LSH couldn’t travel back to Earth 1 and vice versa (especially if the LSV would have no compunction against doing so.)

[Cap808]

As sad as it makes me to say this, I think a good way to fix the Legion is to reduce the roster.

And this makes me a hypocrite, but I really don't know who you could leave off.....

[Zero Hunter]

Don't even try to depict a distant future that's convincing. That's not going to happen. Besides, there was nothing about that setting that was essential to the comic. Just bring them to this time period, along with the JSA. Problem solved. And as an added benefit, you could then use them in crossovers.

One fellow who posts here got so upset when I proposed that idea that he's still mad about it. But it makes perfect sense, and it might get LoS back into print as a successful ongoing.

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!! You can not just bring the Legion to the present day. It takes away their whole reason for being. They would just become the also rans to the Justice League like every other team in the present day. That is the thing about the Legion in that in their time they are THE team. You keep saying this bad idea and people keep telling you why it is such a bad idea but you just won't listen.

[Robotman]

I think the underlying concept of the LoS is more relevant than ever. A group of diverse beings from different cultures working together to fight corruption and crime and to overcome a xenophobic populace. Real world situations but on a cosmic scale. Earth Man’s Justice League of Earth (earth for earthlings!) seems very appropriate to current circumstances as well.

[Jim Kelly]

I think the original post makes it clear that it wasn't the concept that was wrong it was the management at DC. They had one of the biggest successes in their line. Most of the cancellations prior to Crisis were due to management mucking around with the Legion, because they were trying to promote Supergirl and Superboy--and the direct sales market wasn't a thing yet. But by Crisis, fandom was very important to DC and the LSH was one of the big sellers at the shops. So if DC had just let it continue on the same track without interference, it could have continued to build its following just like the X-Men did.

The problems with Legion have always been with DC mishandling the property--until the original fandom died off and new kids didn't know which Legion they were reading (as it had become multiple choice). The original Legion developed its fandom over several years--so if you're starting at zero again, you need to give them time to bring in new readers. Yet DC keeps switching out different versions of the Legion, so there's no chance for them to develop a fanbase, once more.

As far as the concept goes, it's pretty simple--a bunch of young super-heroes in the far future who have interpersonal relationships and go on challenging adventures. The science fiction is borrowed from whatever other science fiction is popular at the time. But I think it's telling that most of the really good LSH creators have an oddball sense of humour and don't stick to realistic story-telling.

This means that when you look at the Legion, you can't really trust that everything is as it seems. Consider the oddball art of John Forte, where everything is a little bit off. Or other freakiy artists like Mike Grell and Keith Giffen. Then there's bizarro writers like Jerry Siegel and Jim Shooter. The Legion is never quite normal, so there must be other explanations for why the future is so weird.

And as it so far in the future, it's easy to come up with some far-out theories. A thousand years is just about right. If it was in the next hundred or two hundred years, then you would expect the future to be more in line with advances in the present. And if it was tens of thousands of years in the future, you'd expect the world to be almost completely unrelatable. But a thousand years is just right for humans to take two steps forward, three steps back and one step forward again. This seems plausible. So their future is at once familiar and totally strange.

And if Stan Lee can get away with saying that his and Jack Kirby's X-Men was a reaction to the civll rights movement--even though there was no character of colour in their version of the team--then I think we can agree that the classic Legion was outside the box for its time. Writers and artists may have failed to get black teen characters past the editors--but they were able to show characters that were orange and blue and green. And there was far more representation of female heroes on the team than what you saw in the other super-groups at the time. And the team continued to be more inclusive and diverse as it progressed through the decades.

[Captain Craig]

I began my comics "career" in the mid 80s, about the time Crisis happened and according to the OP doomed the LEGION.
Not that that mattered as I wouldn't discover the LEGION till the early 90s. When I did try them I wasn't wowed, there was no hook that made me interested to know more. I'd see them or members of LEGION pop up through the 90s and I never went and dug up back issues.

The same major players appeared later in Smallville and now on Supergirl so I still feel I essentially know "everything I need to know about Legion" via Mon-El/Valor, Saturn Girl and Brainiac-5.

I do intended to read classic Silver Age LEGION at some point. Both their OMNIs are cheap and on my too read pile(vol.2 arrives later this week to me).

I feel the concept needs more variation for a series set in the future. More aliens, more serious(not dark) stories, be tied to larger DC lore, have a broader "Future-verse" within which to play. Marvel created GotG in modern day because as cool as the original 31st century team was it was disconnected from their continuity attempts. Even the 90s GotG series frequently had new updated characters picking up some random thread from "present day" to follow.
Either bring LEGION into "present day" or have a "Future-verse" line of books set in their era.

[DrNewGod]

One problem that tends to plague "in the future" concepts have is the temptation to have them recycle "the current" concepts greatest hits. Both Infinity, Inc., and almost all of Marvel's M2 line fell prey to this. Even the Beyond titles tended to indulge in this kind of recycling.

Interestingly, The Legion was resistant to this problem. Somebody will point out that one of their greatest story arcs, "The Great Darkness Saga," used Darkseid, but at the time, Darkseid wasn't the Dr. Doom quality marquee villain he would later become (indeed, it might be argued that "The Great Darkness" was one of the things that helped build Darkseid's Big Bad Credentials in a sense broader than Kirby's early efforts). Sure, there were callbacks to The Legion's source (Superboy) in the form of Brainiac 5, Pulsar Stargrave, Mon-el, and Ultra Boy, but for the most part, writers and editors managed to provide The Legion with their own, unique, and distinctive characters, threats and solutions.

So The Legion has a lot going for it. However, I repeat that it's got a serious handicap in that it's vision of the future has to be mutable to keep from looking overly dated. That makes it hard to establish a consistent feel for the book. Both the editors and the audience have got to be cool with a shifting aesthetic. You've also got to climb over a hurdle of ignoring the fact that in a Star Trek-level environment, a Lightning Lad ain't all that impressive.

I don't know the exact answers, but there's some real problems.

[Robotman]

I think Johns’ Superman and the Legion of Superheroes set a great groundwork for future LoS series. Sadly, Levitz went for very generic stories when he took over.