Grant Morrison's T-shirt and Jeans Superman Returns.

[superduperman]

Remember that episode of Voyager where Red Foreman kept trying to go back in time to prevent the death of his wife and every time he changed history it made things worse? I kind of feel like Superman is that. They keep trying to go back and change his history and all it does is create more problems every time they do.

[Ascended]

Remember that episode of Voyager where Red Foreman kept trying to go back in time to prevent the death of his wife and every time he changed history it made things worse? I kind of feel like Superman is that. They keep trying to go back and change his history and all it does is create more problems every time they do.

I don't remember that episode, (hated Voyager! Worst captain ever! ) but you're totally right. Reboots never help, they always hurt. Always.

But it does provide a nice short term boost. Which is why they keep doing it.

Considering the overall trajectory this industry is on.....I wonder if the publishers are even capable of looking to the long term anymore, or if the struggle to just stay relevant is so overwhelming there's no opportunity to plan and build long term anymore.

[Vordan]

Remember that episode of Voyager where Red Foreman kept trying to go back in time to prevent the death of his wife and every time he changed history it made things worse? I kind of feel like Superman is that. They keep trying to go back and change his history and all it does is create more problems every time they do.

It’s a problem with DC in general. When Marvel does something people don’t like, they tend to just drop and ignore it, like what they did with Sins Past. When DC does something people don’t like, they try to “fix” it with a big continuity-changing event that changes jack **** and instead makes everything worse.

[Miles To Go]

It’s a problem with DC in general. When Marvel does something people don’t like, they tend to just drop and ignore it, like what they did with Sins Past. When DC does something people don’t like, they try to “fix” it with a big continuity-changing event that changes jack **** and instead makes everything worse.

Marvel did that with OMD

[manofsteel1979]

Man, I can't count the number of reboots and smaller retcons Clark has had since 86.

Fortunately not as many as Wonder Woman (seriously DC, where's the respect?), but still far too many for my tastes.

Let's see...

Man of Steel 1.0 (1986)Full reboot for Superman with time gaps placed between issues to allow some precrisis stories to maybe sorta take place.

Zero Hour (1994) new condensed timeline for everyone said gaps in MOS removed meaning post crisis is the only history. Fleshed out more in the 95 year one annuals. Kenny Braverman/Conduit retconned in as one of Clark's Smallville gang.


Superman For all Seasons (1998/99) Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale's year one series uses Byrne's basic framework and doesn't contradict much of what was laid down, but some subtle retcons were instituted. Also a tonal change leading into Loeb's own run.

The Loeb Kelly sort of reboot (2000) Byrne Krypton revealed to be a falsehood. Krypton pretty much reverrts to full on silver age version as a mechanism to bring back Krypto and other preCrisis elements. Sets up the possibility that Clark changed history by reversing Krypton's destruction and a possible "merged preCrisis/post crisis Krypton. Ultimately quietly undone by Geoff Johns and Joe Kelly a year later as a ruse by Braniac to trap Superman.

Birthright/Superman #200/Jim Lee boot- With the TV show Smallville being popular Dan DiDio comissions Mark Waid to write BIRTHRIGHT, a maxiseries that was sold at first as a companion piece to Byrne's 86 reboot, then a pilot for an "ultimate Superman" book to being wedged into existing continuity as the sorta new origin tale with the ending of Superman 200, leading to the Jim Lee and Brian Azzarello lead relaunch of the Superman books. Continuity officially becomes a cluster f--k.

Infinite Crisis (2006) PreCrisis and Post crisis histories merged. Both MOS and Birthright out. New origin implied and promised...but not seen until 2009. Continuity still a cluster f--k.

New 52- Superman's second hard reboot. We all know the score.

Return of Krypton crossover (2013?) teased as the first major arc of the new 52. Lead by Scott Lobdell. Ends in Clark and Co. Possibility undoing the destruction of Krypton and setting up more retcons ( sounds familiar...) But quickly and mercifully forgotten.

Convergence (2014) Not going to talk much about thus as my brain will melt, but ultimately sets up the next retcon by revealing PreFlashpoint Superman and Lois Lane somehow escaped Erasure, had a son named Jon,and ended up on New 52 Earth and has lived there in secret for years.

Rebirth(2016) New 52 Superman dies, PreFlashpoint Superman takes up the mantle and takes over his life ( because Comics) eventually resolved by the New 52 Superman and PreFlashpoint Superman merging and the resulting fall out is a new timeline that is a mix of both histories. Continuity is still a cluster f--k but a managable one. Oh and Jor-El is still alive somehow. Because Comics.

Man of Steel 2.0 (2018) we find out a newly created villain may have destroyed Krypton.

With more retcons and reboots to come!

[Kuwagaton]

Reboots seem traumatic in the sense that half of what you list are things that don’t cause readers elsewhere to think twice. Hundreds of stories are just as minor in effect as ZH or For All Seasons (like Hush giving Batman his own Conduit) and although Superman is the longest running character, the slding timescale alone will account for the same proportion of changes in something like Spider-Man or the X-men. Miles To Go pointed out OMD which was easily messier and as drastic as anything we’ve seen from DC. The story was awful and unlike Grounded, was used as a springboard for more in its direction. But for Superman readers it’s like “here we go again.” It’s countable (gets harder once you add on the reboots, imaginary story sequels, and retcons pre 1986) but probably won’t end until the character ends.

But it’s never really the same thing. Byrne and Morrison has such different problems that it’s hard to say anything was the inherently wrong with the reboots.

[Vordan]

Marvel did that with OMD

Eh kind of. They tried to have their cake and eat it with that one. All the stories still “happened” except the marriage, even if nothing made any goddamn sense now. And yeah OMD is way worse than pretty much anything DC has done imo.

[Yoda]

Eh kind of. They tried to have their cake and eat it with that one. All the stories still “happened” except the marriage, even if nothing made any goddamn sense now. And yeah OMD is way worse than pretty much anything DC has done imo.

It's amazing that all that really had to be done to make OMD somewhat more palatable to fans was swap MJ for Aunt May. Giving up your marriage to save the life of your wife is massively more heroic than doing so for your elderly aunt. The Superman 2000 proposal got that right at least.

[Vordan]

It's amazing that all that really had to be done to make OMD somewhat more palatable to fans was swap MJ for Aunt May. Giving up your marriage to save the life of your wife is massively more heroic than doing so for your elderly aunt. The Superman 2000 proposal got that right at least.

Yeah OMD has some very Oedipal tones what with Pete being unable to let go of his aunt while willingly sacrificing his wife and unborn daughter. Also not having OAA do the magic instead of Mephisto, for Pete’s sake. Satan walking off with the win while Peter comes across like a pathetic manchild was a recipe for disaster.

[Miles To Go]

Eh kind of. They tried to have their cake and eat it with that one. All the stories still “happened” except the marriage, even if nothing made any goddamn sense now

I think they've since backtracked and retconned the timeline alterations are just memory alterations now, just so the stories can still "count" to the reader, just that the characters don't remember how things were. They revealed Mephisto remembers the events of the deal and Peter vaguely recalls making the deal.

[manofsteel1979]

It's amazing that all that really had to be done to make OMD somewhat more palatable to fans was swap MJ for Aunt May. Giving up your marriage to save the life of your wife is massively more heroic than doing so for your elderly aunt. The Superman 2000 proposal got that right at least.

I've theorized that we have Mark Millar to blame for OMD. Millar was on the Superman 2000 team and it was that being scuttled that lead to Millar going to Marvel. Quesada was keen to undo the Spider-Marriagge and I'm almost sure Millar mentioned the Superman 2000 idea of the deal with Mxy being the catalyst to undo the Super-marriage. Quesada just then swapped in Peter and MJ, Aunt May for the life in the balance and Mephisto instead of Mxy. The similarities of the two story ideas is too close to be coincidence. Probably the reason they had Aunt May be the one who was dying rather than MJ so they could claim it wasn't a swipe of a Superman idea.

[Miles To Go]

I've theorized that we have Mark Millar to blame for OMD. Millar was on the Superman 2000 team and it was that being scuttled that lead to Millar going to Marvel. Quesada was keen to undo the Spider-Marriagge and I'm almost sure Millar mentioned the Superman 2000 idea of the deal with Mxy being the catalyst to undo the Super-marriage. Quesada just then swapped in Peter and MJ, Aunt May for the life in the balance and Mephisto instead of Mxy. The similarities of the two story ideas is too close to be coincidence. Probably the reason they had Aunt May be the one who was dying rather than MJ so they could claim it wasn't a swipe of a Superman idea.

One thing people love about Superman Reborn, as messy as the merger was, was that it was a reverse OMD in that it used a magical character to restore the Super-Marriage to the established timeline.

Aunt May was chosen because Quesada wanted the situation to reflect how he was feeling when his own mother was dying and he wanted Peter and MJ to perform a "selfless" act, and to "sacrifice" their love to save a life rather than give up on it

[manofsteel1979]

One thing people love about Superman Reborn, as messy as the merger was, was that it was a reverse OMD in that it used a magical character to restore the Super-Marriage to the established timeline.

Aunt May was chosen because Quesada wanted the situation to reflect how he was feeling when his own mother was dying and he wanted Peter and MJ to perform a "selfless" act, and to "sacrifice" their love to save a life rather than give up on it

Also Reborn was a half way decent story. OMD was a dumpster fire that killed any interest I had in Spidey and Marvel .

I didn't know that about Quasada, It kinda makes more sense why he decided to approach the story in the way he did, but that still could have been acheived by having MJ be in jeopardy. It would have been truly a heartbreaking and the ultimate selfless sacrifice and may have made the whole thing more palatable. Instead it made Peter regress as a character and undone 20 years of character development for the sake of a cheap stunt so Peter Parker could appear young again. Kinda like the New 52 reboot in a way did to Superman...but I digress..

[Miles To Go]

Apparently Sideways will be ending in February.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Apparently Sideways will be ending in February.

Along with the rest of the New Age of Heroes. I respect Didio's desire to create new concepts for the DCU, but this felt like such an overreach. Asking readers to suddenly jump on board for a half a dozen new books nobody had ever heard that largely looked like warmed-over Marvel or Image books from the 90s was a bit much.