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  1. #76
    Spectacular Member Serpico Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    If they keep making mediocre movies like the last jedi then yes, it could mean trouble.

    And, oh, look at that, Ryan Johnson has a new shinny trilogy of movies to make lol.

    Is anyone at Disney even still giving a damn at this point?

    Episode 9 still is going to be a commercial success though, there is no question about that. Jar Jar Abrams is back at the helm, some seems to believe it's a good news, it's the last movie of the prequels (thanks god) and people who have watched the two first want to know of course and far it's going to fall.
    That Rian Johnson trilogy is not happening, imo.

  2. #77
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    This editorial bringing up interesting things


    It looks like things are so bad with the fanbase that at least one director lost any interest in franchise even though he was offered nothing in relation to it. Media outlets are attacking fans over the franchise recent failings is just throwing gas into a wildfire.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    This editorial bringing up interesting things


    It looks like things are so bad with the fanbase that at least one director lost any interest in franchise even though he was offered nothing in relation to it. Media outlets are attacking fans over the franchise recent failings is just throwing gas into a wildfire.
    Well maybe fans should make an effort to not be so loathsome?

  4. #79
    Mighty Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjowski View Post
    Well maybe fans should make an effort to not be so loathsome?
    They can't, it's in their nature.

  5. #80
    Lv 67 Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    She told all the people who needed to know, which did not include Poe and his buddies?

    What? You think she was refuelling those ships herself?

    Poe just got a lot of people killed while disobeying orders, and got demoted for it by Leia herself. Why on earth would Holdo trust Poe with the big plan?
    Justifiedly so because Poe is the one that leaked it to some guys who were on the enemy flagship.
    Part of leadership though is negotiating with already existing power structures. If you have a charismatic person whose words carry a lot of clout within your group, you will generally try to coax this person to your point of view, not push them away. This is especially true for a person that just assumed the role of leadership. Even then, why keep your plan a secret? Your just putting already stressed people further into distress. The movie actually provides a good allegory as to why such behavior is poor leadership because it sparks a mutiny. If Poe was problematic fine (If this was an episode of Star Trek he'd be arrested or confined to quarters if he was such a problem), but that still doesn't explain why so many felt the way Poe did and suggests that there was a broader leadership failing than Poe's personnel resentment.

    Obviously Holdo herself didn't go about fueling these escape pods, but the people she did confine in kept her plan a secret, otherwise word would have reached Poe and his cohorts.
    Last edited by Pinsir; 07-08-2018 at 09:55 PM.
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  6. #81
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Part of leadership though is negotiating with already existing power structures.
    Which demoted Poe isn't a part of. The existing power structure got blown out of the window.

    Obviously Holdo herself didn't go about fueling these escape pods, but the people she did confine in kept her plan a secret, otherwise word would have reached Poe and his cohorts.
    Good on them. They are obviously able to do their duty.

    Again, Poe is the guy that leaked the plan to the First Order as soon as he found out about it. Holdo clearly was right not to trust him.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  7. #82
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpico Jones View Post
    That Rian Johnson trilogy is not happening, imo.
    One can only hope.

  8. #83
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    And the one thing he's good at, flying an X-Wing, was rendered moot when they blew up the hanger with all the fighters. Even if he wasn't just demoted, Poe has no expertise or skills relevant to any plan they could possibly come up with. Fighter pilots are not privy to every decision made by the navy when there are no fighter planes to fly.
    Again, in the comic book there is more to Poe than being a pilot and that is all cannon. This would be crisis situation where you would want every one on the same page and to work together, there really is no reason to ice any one out. Holdo's "spark" speech makes not sense in the situation. It is a dire need to survive and the plan could have been laid out there pure and simple to have every one working on the main goal not a speech of the "spark" of the future with no detail on what is actually going on. Haldo was the arrogant one thinking she could save a sinking ship with out telling every one where the life boats are so that they can learn a valuable life lesson. It's crappy writing.

    One of the issues that I had with TLJ is it makes Leia look like a incompetent leader. When she told Poe to break off and return she also has the power to tell every fighter and bomber to also break off too but she does not and just sit by and watches them all get destroyed. Then Poe takes all the blame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Again, Poe is the guy that leaked the plan to the First Order as soon as he found out about it. Holdo clearly was right not to trust him.
    Holdo's leader ship style helped lead to the First Order finding out the plan. Holdo's show of dominance was more important than creating confidence in her leadership. Confidence in leadership is key especially in a crisis. Holdo's lack of instilling confidence in her people led to a mutiny and the desire to find a soliton to the crisis as there is no confidence in her leadership to do so. Having been in the military myself in a leadership role, I learned to create this trust in confidence is essential to having orders followed no matter the situation. Poe's actions though wrong are a result of Holdo's lack in leadership. She should share the blame in the First Order's knowledge of the escape plan as Leia should share the blame for the destruction of the Dreadnought attack ships that she could have called back but didn't. Again it all comes down to poor writhing.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 07-09-2018 at 10:24 AM.
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  9. #84
    Fantastic Member ClanAskani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    She told all the people who needed to know, which did not include Poe and his buddies?
    The error was including Connix in Poe's group. Poe didn't need to know because of what just happened. Finn, Rose, random Resistance fighters didn't need to know. Connix being included implies everyone on the bridge didn't know what the plan was. She's just a Lieutenant but there was no reason not to tell her the plan since there work that needed to be done to implement it behind the scenes. Holdo's on the bridge giving instructions and some or maybe most of the other officers there aren't in the loop or she's having to deceive? That's just doesn't make sense. But this all seems so much more Star Trek than Star Wars.

    It was nice for Billie to be included as part of Poe's groups especially following Carrie's passing. But she's not the great of an actress and it made Holdo's actions make less sense.

    What would have worked better was if Holdo is from the New Republic fleet. She's taken over command of the Raddus, kicked out the Resistance command staff from the bridge and has her people implementing her plan.
    Last edited by ClanAskani; 07-09-2018 at 12:18 PM.

  10. #85
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    The error was including Connix in Poe's group. Poe didn't need to know because of what just happened. Finn, Rose, random Resistance fighters didn't need to know. Connix being included implies everyone on the bridge didn't know what the plan was. She's just a Lieutenant but there was no reason not to tell her the plan since there work that needed to be done to implement it behind the scenes. Holdo's on the bridge giving instructions and some or maybe most of the other officers there aren't in the loop or she's having to deceive? That's just doesn't make sense. But this all seems so much more Star Trek than Star Wars.

    It was nice for Billie to be included as part of Poe's groups especially following Carrie's passing. But she's not the great of an actress and it made Holdo's actions make less sense.

    What would have worked better was if Holdo is from the New Republic fleet. She's taken over command of the Raddus, kicked out the Resistance command staff from the bridge and has her people implementing her plan.
    I myself thought it was odd that a group large enough to take over the ship and not one of them even second hand knew about the plan. Or when Poe took over no one yelled "Hey moron we have an actual plan to escape". I can understand a slip or two in common sense to move a plot along but the Poe and Holdo conflict just seems that too much was suspended to much move the story along. I understand the story the Johnson was trying to tell but his execution was horrible.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  11. #86
    "Emma is STILL right! Vegeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    I myself thought it was odd that a group large enough to take over the ship and not one of them even second hand knew about the plan. Or when Poe took over no one yelled "Hey moron we have an actual plan to escape". I can understand a slip or two in common sense to move a plot along but the Poe and Holdo conflict just seems that too much was suspended to much move the story along. I understand the story the Johnson was trying to tell but his execution was horrible.
    True, the fact that no one on the command bridge moves to prevent Poe's mutiny makes it seem that Holdo didn't inform anybody important about her intent, and that none of the Resistance leaders had any faith in her.

    Poe gets a lot of blame, but General Leia and Admiral Holdo were the ones who allowed him to continue running around the command center when he probably should have been thrown in the brig. It just makes them seem incredibly incompetent as leaders, particularly when they are ogling Oscar Issac.
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  12. #87
    Fantastic Member ClanAskani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta View Post
    True, the fact that no one on the command bridge moves to prevent Poe's mutiny makes it seem that Holdo didn't inform anybody important about her intent, and that none of the Resistance leaders had any faith in her.
    I don't understand what exactly was the message was suppose to be about Holdo. She's a essentially a secretive dictator who the audience is suppose to think was right. Poe was wrong for questioning authority when the authority figure gave him no reason to trust her.

    Star Wars doesn't need to be preachy in terms the the message but there are familiar themes. It's fine to turn those themes upside down and show the characters failing. But these are kids' movies. I don't think blindly follow orders is the message that should be portrayed. The Resistance is a volunteer force of freedom fighters - not the Imperials.

    Generation Tech has a great video about how the message in SW changed from the OT to the ST and it's part of the core elements that just isn't working.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8EF07AiI-I


    Maybe the two new tv shows will be interesting, but the fundamental story being a forgone conclusion (the New Republic fails to realize the First Order is a threat) makes them predictable. And the demilitarization and deescalation by the new Republic will be the fatal flaw. Had the New Republic kept a strong military, The First Order would never have taken over. Does that really feel like Star Wars?

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    I don't understand what exactly was the message was suppose to be about Holdo. She's a essentially a secretive dictator who the audience is suppose to think was right. Poe was wrong for questioning authority when the authority figure gave him no reason to trust her.

    Star Wars doesn't need to be preachy in terms the the message but there are familiar themes. It's fine to turn those themes upside down and show the characters failing. But these are kids' movies. I don't think blindly follow orders is the message that should be portrayed. The Resistance is a volunteer force of freedom fighters - not the Imperials.

    Generation Tech has a great video about how the message in SW changed from the OT to the ST and it's part of the core elements that just isn't working.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8EF07AiI-I


    Maybe the two new tv shows will be interesting, but the fundamental story being a forgone conclusion (the New Republic fails to realize the First Order is a threat) makes them predictable. And the demilitarization and deescalation by the new Republic will be the fatal flaw. Had the New Republic kept a strong military, The First Order would never have taken over. Does that really feel like Star Wars?
    I think this arc was the victim of the director wanting to subvert the viewers expectations. Poe is the hot head,rash character that the viewers want to get behind.Holdo is the hardass boss that prevents the hero from doing his job.

    So the director being wanted to screw with that mindset by Holdo being right in the end.
    Last edited by Baseman; 07-09-2018 at 06:32 PM.

  14. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Actually showing the First Order stealing babies might be a bit too dark for Lucasfilm.
    Considering everything in this series. I can't see too much trouble fitting this in here. Besides Lucasfilm made it part of Finn's backstory. You're not getting that genie back into the bottle.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    The error was including Connix in Poe's group. Poe didn't need to know because of what just happened. Finn, Rose, random Resistance fighters didn't need to know. Connix being included implies everyone on the bridge didn't know what the plan was. She's just a Lieutenant but there was no reason not to tell her the plan since there work that needed to be done to implement it behind the scenes. Holdo's on the bridge giving instructions and some or maybe most of the other officers there aren't in the loop or she's having to deceive? That's just doesn't make sense. But this all seems so much more Star Trek than Star Wars.

    It was nice for Billie to be included as part of Poe's groups especially following Carrie's passing. But she's not the great of an actress and it made Holdo's actions make less sense.

    What would have worked better was if Holdo is from the New Republic fleet. She's taken over command of the Raddus, kicked out the Resistance command staff from the bridge and has her people implementing her plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    I myself thought it was odd that a group large enough to take over the ship and not one of them even second hand knew about the plan. Or when Poe took over no one yelled "Hey moron we have an actual plan to escape". I can understand a slip or two in common sense to move a plot along but the Poe and Holdo conflict just seems that too much was suspended to much move the story along. I understand the story the Johnson was trying to tell but his execution was horrible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta View Post
    True, the fact that no one on the command bridge moves to prevent Poe's mutiny makes it seem that Holdo didn't inform anybody important about her intent, and that none of the Resistance leaders had any faith in her.

    Poe gets a lot of blame, but General Leia and Admiral Holdo were the ones who allowed him to continue running around the command center when he probably should have been thrown in the brig. It just makes them seem incredibly incompetent as leaders, particularly when they are ogling Oscar Issac.
    I have to agree Holdo's leadership leaves much to be desired. To ask people to follow you blindly is foolish IMO. It's much like the Jedi Council in the Kotor games. They go on about how Revan shouldn't have gone to the republic's aid but they won't explain why. I definitley don't get why Holdo would say she likes him. That made no sense.

  15. #90
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    Maybe the two new tv shows will be interesting, but the fundamental story being a forgone conclusion (the New Republic fails to realize the First Order is a threat) makes them predictable. And the demilitarization and deescalation by the new Republic will be the fatal flaw. Had the New Republic kept a strong military, The First Order would never have taken over. Does that really feel like Star Wars?
    The fundamental story being a forgone conclusion didn't seem to hinder the Prequels, the Clone Wars, Rebels, or Rogue One.
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