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  1. #91
    Fantastic Member ClanAskani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    The fundamental story being a forgone conclusion didn't seem to hinder the Prequels, the Clone Wars, Rebels, or Rogue One.
    The question is whether all of those could have been bigger if there was more of an element of surprise. That's the commonly cited reason prequels and origin stories don't do as well. You know Han doesn't die in Solo because it's a prequel. I do argue that everyone knows James Bond isn't going to die in the next movie. Everyone can absolutely predict what what will happen in the majority of movies and there's no legit fear the main character is in any danger. For example, The Rock's Skyscraper movie which is coming out this weekend - is the fact it's not a prequel make the audience actually fear that The Rock's character will be killed during the action scenes. It's a script that could easily have been written by matinees and it utterly predictable. But, there is an attitude by audiences that prequels aren't must see movies or tv.

    The fundamental story is also important and that didn't necessarily appeal to a broad audience. That's where I really wonder about the tv shows and what's been set up. Maybe Jon Favreau's show focused on other elements, but the core problem is the New Republic doesn't see the threat and tries a peaceful solution. It's like Game of Thrones where the White Walkers are the First Order, the Resistance is Jon Snow and Mon Mothma is Cersei. The difference is Mon Mothma and the New Republic have a point about demilitarization. The Resistance aren't rebels rising up against an oppressive government, they're rising up because the democratically elected government is choosing non-violence. There is something unsettling about that premise.
    Last edited by ClanAskani; 07-10-2018 at 08:19 AM.

  2. #92
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    The question is whether all of those could have been bigger if there was more of an element of surprise. That's the commonly cited reason prequels and origin stories don't do as well. You know Han doesn't die in Solo because it's a prequel. I do argue that everyone knows James Bond isn't going to die in the next movie. Everyone can absolutely predict what what will happen in the majority of movies and there's no legit fear the main character is in any danger. For example, The Rock's Skyscraper movie which is coming out this weekend - is the fact it's not a prequel make the audience actually fear that The Rock's character will be killed during the action scenes. It's a script that could easily have been written by matinees and it utterly predictable. But, there is an attitude by audiences that prequels aren't must see movies or tv.

    The fundamental story is also important and that didn't necessarily appeal to a broad audience. That's where I really wonder about the tv shows and what's been set up. Maybe Jon Favreau's show focused on other elements, but the core problem is the New Republic doesn't see the threat and tries a peaceful solution. It's like Game of Thrones where the White Walkers are the First Order, the Resistance is Jon Snow and Mon Mothma is Cersei. The difference is Mon Mothma and the New Republic have a point about demilitarization. The Resistance aren't rebels rising up against an oppressive government, they're rising up because the democratically elected government is choosing non-violence. There is something unsettling about that premise.
    I think one of the reasons (of many) that Solo was not as successful was that much of the audience thought already knew what the move was going to be all about. Many of the comments that I read before the move were, He is going to join the empire, save Chewy's life, do the Kessel Run in under 12 parsecs, win the Millennial Falcon from Lando, Lose Jabba's cargo, and get chased by Boba Fett. Most of the predictions were sadly true, with some surprises. A good number of prequels are stories that people think they already know and don't feel a need to waste time and money on them. In Titanic we know the boat is going to sink, but we don't know the story of Jack and Rose before watching it. In Solo we know the out come and have many details of the story before watching it. I would like to add though that Solo opened up new territory outside of the "Jedi/Sith - Empire/ Rebel" story lines that have been the main trend in Star Wars and that is a good thing.

    The idea of Resistance relationship to the New Republic is also lost to people who only watch the movies as much have that story line in now form outside sources.

    I'm hoping that Favreau does take a route that is separate form the main story elements, A Firefly type group of smugglers that is not connected to a faction like in Solo maybe. The MCU is proof that it is hard to maintain TV and Movie story lines running parallel.
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  3. #93
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    The question is whether all of those could have been bigger if there was more of an element of surprise.
    No way to know.
    But considering how much most peoplejust love spoilers, I doubt it.

    That's the commonly cited reason prequels and origin stories don't do as well. You know Han doesn't die in Solo because it's a prequel. I do argue that everyone knows James Bond isn't going to die in the next movie. Everyone can absolutely predict what what will happen in the majority of movies and there's no legit fear the main character is in any danger. For example, The Rock's Skyscraper movie which is coming out this weekend - is the fact it's not a prequel make the audience actually fear that The Rock's character will be killed during the action scenes.
    If people think The Rock might get killed off in the first movie of a new franchise then I have a bridge to sell them.
    Also, am I the only one who thinks this is a thinly veiled Die Hard remake?

    The fundamental story is also important and that didn't necessarily appeal to a broad audience.
    Odds are the 'fundamental story' won't even have anything to do with the sequel trilogy.

    Maybe Jon Favreau's show focused on other elements, but the core problem is the New Republic doesn't see the threat and tries a peaceful solution.
    "Focused on", past tense? More like "could focus on", "might focus on"... You speak as if you're from 2025 and doing a retrospective on this series which us 2018ians actually don't know a whole lot about
    And, you know, tv series. It doesn't even need to focus on just one little thing.

    It's like Game of Thrones where the White Walkers are the First Order, the Resistance is Jon Snow and Mon Mothma is Cersei. The difference is Mon Mothma and the New Republic have a point about demilitarization. The Resistance aren't rebels rising up against an oppressive government, they're rising up because the democratically elected government is choosing non-violence. There is something unsettling about that premise.
    Or it's like Smallville, where you know hom 90% of the characters are going to turn out and who is definitely not going to die, and who probably will, but it still goes on for 10 years.
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  4. #94
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    "Focused on", past tense? More like "could focus on", "might focus on"... You speak as if you're from 2025 and doing a retrospective on this series which us 2018ians actually don't know a whole lot about
    And, you know, tv series. It doesn't even need to focus on just one little thing.
    Allow some one a typo now and again (being dyslectic I'm very prone to them), don't got to be so harsh.
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  5. #95
    Fantastic Member ClanAskani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    No way to know.
    But considering how much most peoplejust love spoilers, I doubt it.
    Rebels premiered incredibly well, it could have moved to ABC permenantly if it maintained those numbers. But viewers dropped and it moved to XD instead. Same with Clone Wars - huge ratings and then the number of viewers fell substancially. The general public might tune in for Star Wars and check it out, but the quesiton is why they tune out.

    Fans see Rebels and Clone Wars as successful, but Disney will be incredibly unhappy if they see those types of drops for the new shows when they're trying to drive customers to their streaming service.

    I don't see the same type of interest in what happens, spoilers and theories following TLJ. While Smallville was able to tread water the WB, Gotham hasn't on Fox. The question is whether tv audiences have changed and want something less predictable.
    Last edited by ClanAskani; 07-10-2018 at 10:46 AM.

  6. #96
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Allow some one a typo now and again (being dyslectic I'm very prone to them), don't got to be so harsh.
    Typo or not, he still talks about the show will be about with the kind of certainty you normally only get after watching it.
    We do know it is set 25ish years before the sequels, when there isn't even a First Order yet to rise up against.

    We don't know what the premise is, what kind of characters the main cast will be, what the themes will be...
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  7. #97
    Fantastic Member ClanAskani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Typo or not, he still talks about the show will be about with the kind of certainty you normally only get after watching it.
    We do know it is set 25ish years before the sequels, when there isn't even a First Order yet to rise up against.

    We don't know what the premise is, what kind of characters the main cast will be, what the themes will be...
    We know what has to happen between ROTJ and TFA - and what fails. Ultimately, everything built up will fail. The idea people will tune in for some little clue about what happened is far less than it was three years ago. Rey's parents are nobodies, Snoke is dead, Luke's Jedi order fails.

    The situation set-up by TFA - the New Republic tries a peaceful approach and that ends up being their downfall - is something that in this day & age, I'm not sure appeals to everyone. Does TFA get retconned? Maybe. But they're already well into pre-production on Favereau's show. Scripts are finished.

    And also, I'm female.

  8. #98
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    We know what has to happen between ROTJ and TFA - and what fails. Ultimately, everything built up will fail. The idea people will tune in for some little clue about what happened is far less than it was three years ago. Rey's parents are nobodies, Snoke is dead, Luke's Jedi order fails.

    The situation set-up by TFA - the New Republic tries a peaceful approach and that ends up being their downfall - is something that in this day & age, I'm not sure appeals to everyone. Does TFA get retconned? Maybe. But they're already well into pre-production on Favereau's show. Scripts are finished.
    The New Republic was succeeding up until halfway through The Force Awakens.

    But we don't know if the show is even going to deal with any of this at all, if the First Order, Snoke, Luke's Jedi... are even going to play a major role in it.
    This might as well be the story of some smugglers and bounty hunters on the outer rim.

    And also, I'm female.
    I am very sorry, I really should have remembered.
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  9. #99
    Mighty Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    There's the Resistance cartoon going on as well, although that's much closer to TFA.
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  10. #100
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    There's the Resistance cartoon going on as well, although that's much closer to TFA.
    Hmm, well, so far Star Wars hasn't really disappointed me when it comes to cartoon (never watched that weird looking 2003 show though) so i may give it a try even if the settings interest me about as much as watching a dog licking its ass.

    Could that show save the sequels as the clone wars show saved the prequels?

  11. #101
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    (never watched that weird looking 2003 show though)
    Not a Samurai Jack fan then?
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  12. #102
    Astonishing Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Hmm, well, so far Star Wars hasn't really disappointed me when it comes to cartoon (never watched that weird looking 2003 show though) so i may give it a try even if the settings interest me about as much as watching a dog licking its ass.

    Could that show save the sequels as the clone wars show saved the prequels?
    The original Clone Wars micro series? Saw that myself. The thing is Legends now and non-canon (not that that has anything to do with the story being good or not). I recall that it got huge amounts of praise, it's was better than the prequels, the CGI Clone Wars show couldn't match it at it best, etc. IMHO, the micro series is the ultimate example of all style and no substance. Beautiful 2D animation, but the "stories" are as flat as the art style. Star Wars cartoons have evolved considerably since then, with character development, pushing the envelope, and more complex storytelling.

    It's a historical curiosity, but I don't think it's worth seeing unless you're a completist.
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  13. #103
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    The micro series was important viewing back then because it filled in the gaps between the movies. The series continued directly into ROTS.
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  14. #104
    Chosen One Carabas's Avatar
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    It's not that essential for a Star Wars fan, but fans of Genndy Tartakovsky and/or Mace Windu really should have a look at it.
    "One may be intelligent, and a Nazi. Then one is not decent. One may be decent and a Nazi. Then one is not intelligent. And one may be intelligent and decent. Then one is not a Nazi"
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  15. #105
    Astonishing Member Derek Metaltron's Avatar
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    Would anyone think one of the issues facing Star Wars with these apparent divisions be that it has such a varied fanbase now? Just as with Star Trek or Doctor Who and anything else which has been around for forty plus years, you have people coming in within their childhoods at all points of the franchise and so its inevitable someone like me who was a kid when the Special Edition Originals and Prequels were out sees things differently to someone who was a kid in '77.

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