Was Cyclops right?

[capandkirby]

Without any examples that's just biased hyperbole. Also, the Plague? Like, THE Plague? You're really going to compare the Avengers morals to a virus? what does that even prove, not to mention, you seem to ignore the countless time the avengers have saved cities, countries, and worlds.

Just a warning: that user, CuteClops, uses every opportunity in the book to drag the Avengers. The term 'stuck in a cognitive bias' doesn't even begin to cover the extent of it, I mean it's been YEARS since AvX.

I've never seen the likes of it, even considering stan culture.

#iwishstanculturewoulddie #itskillingstarwarsfandom

[Danileriver23]

The Avengers acted like a bunch of fascists, the killed many people, destroyed entire planets, committed genocides, killed billions of innocent people, AND "not to mention, you seem to ignore the countless time CYCLOPS has saved cities, HUMANS, countries, and worlds.."

Read the books.

I didn't ignore that. I didn't even say anything about Cyclopes other than he's boring and obstinate. But again, you fail to provide any examples so it's clear your argument is essentially "I like Cyclops" which isn't an argument or a view point, but I'm pretty sure I won't find any asking for them anyways.

[Danileriver23]

Steve was fine except for totally ignoring all of Secret Empire. Did HE ever take "some time" for himself after that debacle? Tony was a total douche though and that was annoying. They've all done bad sh!t before, whether they meant to or not. It's moments like this that really make it tough to like the Avengers all the time.

Steve did an apology tour across the nation and saved the entire country from a tyrannical dictator and gave his life to preserve the country, although that story kind of sucked, but its still canon.

[Danileriver23]

Just a warning: that user, CuteClops, uses every opportunity in the book to drag the Avengers. The term 'stuck in a cognitive bias' doesn't even begin to cover the extent of it, I mean it's been YEARS since AvX.

I've never seen the likes of it, even considering stan culture.

#iwishstanculturewoulddie #itskillingstarwarsfandom

I'm starting to think I'm getting trolled and he's secretly a cap fan...lol

[Knives]

Without any examples that's just biased hyperbole. Also, the Plague? Like, THE Plague? You're really going to compare the Avengers morals to a virus? what does that even prove, not to mention, you seem to ignore the countless time the avengers have saved cities, countries, and worlds.

And Cyclops and the X-men did not do the same? Save Earth and mankind so many times.
So why only Cyclops became the mutant Hitler while he caused less damage and deaths than most Avengers or Inhumans in their worst moments?

Is it just because he's mutant or an X-men?

[DurararaFTW]

To speak to the bolded:
1 The Avengers did not "launch an assault" they came to reason with Scott. If you remember, scott threw the first punch, er, eye blast. Most people will say "Well why did the avengers bring a helicarrier if they didn't want a fight?" because they're not stupid. They were going to an island which was essentially foreign soil that had powered people run by Scott, who is incredibly obstinate and unstable, and also his two advisors, Emma frost and Magneto, who both are psychopaths and terrorists. Only a fool would go their defenseless.
2. Your analogy about a hero mistakenly killing someone is flawed. It's different from Spiderman jumping out of the way and gobbling impaling himself, because in spiderman's scenario, he's trying to stop the goblin, because, you know, he's evil. Charles tried to stop Scott because he was out of control and Scott killed him for it. Charles wasn't doing anything wrong except trying to rein him in. And as you said, "Cyclops having the Phoenix powers didn't remove his free will..."

I wasn't talking about the first fight (though Cap wasn't there to reason, reasoning is a two way street, Cap can't say "I'm not asking" and claim he's reasoning). I'm talking about the last fight. Charles and the Avengers assembled an army, some of which put in writing that they were not even gonna try to take Cyclops in non-lethally, went to Cyclops' island uninvited to unilaterally declare this is the end, give up or else. They decided it had to end that very day, no matter what Cyclops was or wasn't actively doing. Xavier said it outright, "I'm making you [give up the phoenix]." Either Cyclops free will was threatened by the Phoenix or Xavier. I don't see how one can argue he was simply exercising it unprovoked.

[Danileriver23]

And Cyclops and the X-men did not do the same? Save Earth and mankind so many times.
So why only Cyclops became the mutant Hitler while he caused less damage and deaths than most Avengers or Inhumans in their worst moments?

Is it just because he's mutant or an X-men?

I said this before, but I did NOT say that Cyclops never saved anyone or anything. Someone else called the Avengers monsters with nothing to backup their statement and a simply stated that they had saved MANY people. Those 2 items are not mutually exclusive.

[Danileriver23]

I wasn't talking about the first fight (though Cap wasn't there to reason, reasoning is a two way street, Cap can't say "I'm not asking" and claim he's reasoning). I'm talking about the last fight. Charles and the Avengers assembled an army, some of which put in writing that they were not even gonna try to take Cyclops in non-lethally, went to Cyclops' island uninvited to unilaterally declare this is the end, give up or else. They decided it had to end that very day, no matter what Cyclops was or wasn't actively doing. Xavier said it outright, "I'm making you [give up the phoenix]." Either Cyclops free will was threatened by the Phoenix or Xavier. I don't see how one can argue he was simply exercising it unprovoked.

The last fight? The last fight was when the Cyclops was running rampant across the planet. And yeah, Xavier SHOULDV'E threatened his free will, because he was totally unstable and a danger to the planet, hence the ocean boiling. Unless we're saying we should never impose one someones free will under any circumstance. If that's your opinion, that's perfectly fine, but then no superhero should ever stop any villain ever because they are impose against that person free will.

[cc008]

Steve did an apology tour across the nation and saved the entire country from a tyrannical dictator and gave his life to preserve the country, although that story kind of sucked, but its still canon.

So why can't Alex try to do the same?

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

The last fight? The last fight was when the Cyclops was running rampant across the planet. And yeah, Xavier SHOULDV'E threatened his free will, because he was totally unstable and a danger to the planet, hence the ocean boiling. Unless we're saying we should never impose one someones free will under any circumstance. If that's your opinion, that's perfectly fine, but then no superhero should ever stop any villain ever because they are impose against that person free will.

At that point it was Dark Phoenix's free will, not Scott's.
I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out a nuance a lot of people seem to miss.

[Danileriver23]

So why can't Alex try to do the same?

...I mean, I never said he couldn't...

[Danileriver23]

At that point it was Dark Phoenix's free will, not Scott's.
I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out a nuance a lot of people seem to miss.

I'd argue that that's debatable, and even so, he put himself in that position anyways, but that's just a matter of opinion.

[XPac]

Tony fought alongside him and other heroes during the fight against the Apocalypse Brothers and Kang and in the fight against the Red Skull and yes Tony knows and is responsible for the condition of Havok have extended after Axis. And Steve and Thor were on the team and none of them defended Havok against Tony.

For the record this was not the only time the Avengers and Stark burned him in this issue.



While there may be other factors involved:

Attachment 67914

The point is that they used him because it was convenient to show cooperation and have an opposing figure to Cyclops and his speech however as soon as something that was not his fault happened (like Cyclops) the Avengers do not want to have any further connection with him.

By this point in time pretty much e anyone has fought alongside everyone else. But again, I wouldn't classify Stark and Alex as friends or even really colleagues. We saw th at in Steve, who likely woyld qualify. And I think Steve telling Stark easy was him protecting Alex when they were getting on his case.

But I'm not surprised Stark might have burned him here or later in the story. Again, Starks not the nicest guy in the world. He'll burn people he actually liked too.

[cc008]

...I mean, I never said he couldn't...

Right and I'm not saying you did... but the Avengers and Steve wouldn't even give him the chance. He thought he was doing the right thing.

It could have been handled much better.

[XPac]

So why can't Alex try to do the same?

I think he was effectively suggesting Alex do what Steve did. Steve took a break to try and figure things out (though in comics even breaks end up work when you have an on going book), and I think he thought it might do Alex some good too.