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  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Infinite mass punch to the face can break even superman's face. Hello! Did you read flash war? Hunter Zolomon basically laid out the entire league.it was Wally who beat him.
    That doesn't make him super strong. That's just a different application of his speed. Superman's strength and speed are two different abilities entirely.

  2. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That doesn't make him super strong. That's just a different application of his speed. Superman's strength and speed are two different abilities entirely.
    That's like saying potato to me in two different ways. They even have a strength force thing.

  3. #258
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That doesn't make him super strong. That's just a different application of his speed. Superman's strength and speed are two different abilities entirely.
    But logically it does mean his invulnerability is up there with Superman’s...when Flash hits something with his hand or arm, an equal and opposite force is applied to him, to the thing he hits.

    If he hits some one super tough..like a White Martian or Superman..is hand should be totally obliterated. (Think Morrison in JLS showed him breaking arm as a result of infinite mass punch..damage should have been much more extreme.)

    In general the “argument” that Flash can only run fast has been cobblers for a long time now...he has a wide range of other abilities.

  4. #259
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    But logically it does mean his invulnerability is up there with Superman’s...when Flash hits something with his hand or arm, an equal and opposite force is applied to him, to the thing he hits.

    If he hits some one super tough..like a White Martian or Superman..is hand should be totally obliterated. (Think Morrison in JLS showed him breaking arm as a result of infinite mass punch..damage should have been much more extreme.)

    In general the “argument” that Flash can only run fast has been cobblers for a long time now...he has a wide range of other abilities.
    You can always write it off as "Speed Force" .

  5. #260
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    Fact of the matter is that Superman can be killed without the use of "magic" or "kryptonite", by any number of characters including a certain "furry black ops" specialist with a penchant for "bats". After all, in spite of his great powers and diverse power-set, Clark is still a MAN, and therefore is a mortal.

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    That's like saying potato to me in two different ways. They even have a strength force thing.
    The Flashes don't have that. And being able to punch hard due to how force works is not super strength. The flash cannot life the book of infinity, The Flash can not throw a mountain.

  7. #262

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    The Flashes don't have that. And being able to punch hard due to how force works is not super strength. The flash cannot life the book of infinity, The Flash can not throw a mountain.
    Well, it is in their ball park. Didn't barry grow muscles or something? It doesn't matter anyway. Lifting strength means squat. It is never used in team surroundings. A speedster beat the entire league and they call superman op.

  8. #263

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    Quote Originally Posted by dswynne View Post
    Fact of the matter is that Superman can be killed without the use of "magic" or "kryptonite", by any number of characters including a certain "furry black ops" specialist with a penchant for "bats". After all, in spite of his great powers and diverse power-set, Clark is still a MAN, and therefore is a mortal.
    So, you wouldn't mind if he goes back to precrisis powerlevel and powerset. Since, he is so human.

  9. #264
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    The Flashes don't have that. And being able to punch hard due to how force works is not super strength. The flash cannot life the book of infinity, The Flash can not throw a mountain.
    Flash could throw handfuls of dirt and rock from the mountain so fast that it would have the same effect as throwing the whole mountain at once. He could run in a circle so fast he could create a tornado that could lift the book.

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Well, it is in their ball park. Didn't barry grow muscles or something? It doesn't matter anyway. Lifting strength means squat. It is never used in team surroundings. A speedster beat the entire league and they call superman op.
    It is not in their ballpark. It was a temporary introduction to it.

    Zolomon isn't even a speedster most of the time, but yes, Speedsters are very dangerous in fights. But how many times has a Superman villain taken out the entire JL? It's a very common trope, stop being up in arms about it because it happened to Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    Flash could throw handfuls of dirt and rock from the mountain so fast that it would have the same effect as throwing the whole mountain at once. He could run in a circle so fast he could create a tornado that could lift the book.
    His vortexes have always had a much greater limit to it than that, and no, he could not lift the book of infinity. That was specifically a Superman and Captain Marvel team up deal showing how special they are.

    Even when The Flash has thrown rocks at superspeed it was never that powerful because it'd be dangerous as they're outside of his aura.

  11. #266

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    It is not in their ballpark. It was a temporary introduction to it.

    Zolomon isn't even a speedster most of the time, but yes, Speedsters are very dangerous in fights. But how many times has a Superman villain taken out the entire JL? It's a very common trope, stop being up in arms about it because it happened to Superman.
    That is a whole different deal.( Superman villains being treated as league villains)superman was never meant to be weak. Was he? The character was never claimed to be weak. He was always meant to be a cut above the rest. Atleast that is the concept of the character. You may think that's bad. But, other characters are supposed to get to his level. Instead , cutting his footing and nerfing him has done nothing for the character. So naturally, his villains could take on the league except for a few exceptions. I mean, his villains can even eclipse superman. Superman is op.he was always meant to be. But, saying flash isn't op or strong is disingenuous. That is what we are talking about.

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    That is a whole different deal.( Superman villains being treated as league villains)superman was never meant to be weak. Was he? The character was never claimed to be weak. He was always meant to be a cut above the rest. Atleast that is the concept of the character. You may think that's bad. But, other characters are supposed to get to his level. Instead , cutting his footing and nerfing him has done nothing for the character. So naturally, his villains could take on the league except for a few exceptions. I mean, his villains can even eclipse superman. Superman is op.he was always meant to be. But, saying flash isn't op or strong is disingenuous. That is what we are talking about.
    Superman wasn't "always meant to be a cut above the rest." Superman was the first, there was no "rest" when he was created. And many heroes have been made since who are clearly more powerful than Superman. Most notably, even in your fabled Silver Age, Spectre could stop him near effortlessly.

    The Flash has a handful of villains who could pose a real threat to the JL and Zolomon is first or second among them. My point is exactly that it's not absurd for that to happen, though I've never been a fan of that style of story.

    Of course the Flash is very powerful. But he is powerful in certain ways that are different, as is Superman. But when push comes to shove you never see a "cosmic armor" Flash saving the concept of storytelling and heroism, do you? Superman always trumps everyone in everything at the end of the day when it comes to importance and I don't see why you're so nettled that Superman should be clearly slower than the guy who's entire tagline is "The Fastest Man Alive."
    Last edited by Dred; 10-22-2019 at 05:51 AM.

  13. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Superman wasn't "always meant to be a cut above the rest." Superman was the first, there was no "rest" when he was created. And many heroes have been made since who are clearly more powerful than Superman. Most notably, even in your fabled Silver Age, Spectre could stop him near effortlessly.

    The Flash has a handful of villains who could pose a real threat to the JL and Zolomon is first or second among them. My point is exactly that it's not absurd for that to happen, though I've never been a fan of that style of story.

    Of course the Flash is very powerful. But he is powerful in certain ways that are different, as is Superman. But when push comes to shove you never see a "cosmic armor" Flash saving the concept of storytelling and heroism, do you? Superman always trumps everyone in everything at the end of the day when it comes to importance and I don't see why you're so nettled that Superman should be clearly slower than the guy who's entire tagline is "The Fastest Man Alive."
    Actually, phantom and a whole bunch of guys existed. As for the rest not existing. Well, when they began to appear. Superman went from "man of action" to "man of tomorrow". didn't he? He still was cut above the rest.

    Really? The spectre. The thing thats touted as the embodiment of god's vengeance. You don't need to go that far swamp thing can whoop him. Those are avatars or cosmic entities. They can't even be boxed in as just immortal. But, we are not talking about those things. are we?
    He is super-man. He should be a cut above anything that isn't in his paygrade like cosmic being, the angel, powerful reality warpers like dr manhattan .. Etc.He was. Wonder woman basically got her arm broken by punching mongul. That should basically tell you where clark was at. Clark used to go toe to toe against barry in speed. The guy built the fortress of solitude himself from scratch and used to outwit smart cosmic beings. Tell me how he is just supposed to be a really strong farmboy?
    His importace is being a plot device, now. That to an inconsistent one. That's not something i want.i don't think the character or ip needs right now.
    I am not really nettled at superman not being the fastest. I don't care if superman isn't the fastest.i am just questioning the mindset of guys who want him out of their characters way?.just because a speedster specialises in something doesn't mean that department becomes untouchable to the rest. leaving in the dust nonsense is never going to be welcomed. The speedsters not having competition in the speed department from other guys without "speed force" will only make flash's "run a bit faster" moments watered-down.

  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    So, you wouldn't mind if he goes back to precrisis powerlevel and powerset. Since, he is so human.
    My favorite run of Superman was John Bryne's MAN OF STEEL (followed by Joe Kelly's run). That's what got me to collect a Superman series for a number of years. Stopped collecting when the SUPERMAN: NEW KRYPTON series ended (I HATED how they resolved that storyline). But I still collect the Justice League books, and like how Superman is still "Superman" without relegating the other members of the team as either ineffective or redundant. I LIKE my Superman to be slightly handicapped, so that his feats are the more impressive artistically. You know, characterization over power-set? That's where I stand on the matter, hence, my original opinion that Superman should be the "slowest" on the "speedster" list, due to being more tied to the physics of the DCU. And, to clarify, being the "slowest" doesn't mean that special circumstances (such as a "sun dip") or intense training (which Superman did under the watch of Mongul) can't come into play. However, those factors will certainly differentiate Superman from your average Kryptonian, and certainly, this gives him an edge over his tradition rival/knockoff Shazam (who, in this continuity, has never had his powers/abilities "pressure tested" the way Superman, and even Wonder Woman, have).

    Think of this in this way: Superman is a V6 engine, while the others are a V8. However, a V6 engine is much more efficient power-wise and dependable, and can last longer than a V8 engine (which consumes a lot more power, and can be highly inefficient in comparison). In other words, Superman is the standard workhorse of the DCU. He has the power to get the job done as needed, BECAUSE HE CAN.

    But, this is just my opinion, of course...

  15. #270
    Mighty Member krazijoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    But logically it does mean his invulnerability is up there with Superman’s...when Flash hits something with his hand or arm, an equal and opposite force is applied to him, to the thing he hits.

    If he hits some one super tough..like a White Martian or Superman..is hand should be totally obliterated. (Think Morrison in JLS showed him breaking arm as a result of infinite mass punch..damage should have been much more extreme.)

    In general the “argument” that Flash can only run fast has been cobblers for a long time now...he has a wide range of other abilities.
    The air displacement he can generate could pack quite a wallop.

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