Official Speed Ranking of DC Heroes & Villains (DC Nation #2)

[leo619]

Just my 2 cents on this thread, but I'd point out that although the Speed Force has the potential to grant the highest end speed, that doesn't mean everyone connected to it can tap the full potential. I mean, even among Speed Force users you got some who are slower than others. It's not exactly a new idea that Barry or Wally are faster than Jay(who's age has started to slow him down a bit) and Jesse Quick. So the idea that Kid Flash might not be quite as fast as say, Superman, who is really fast, doesn't seem all that weird.

Besides, the comment basically says that with time he could definitely move up the list, and mentioned that Godspeed was probably higher up when he first appeared, so these aren't fully set in stone for the rest of time. It's literally just a ranking of who is faster right now.

It would make sense for there to be hierarchy within the speed force, no one disagrees with that. But there's a huge difference between someone having a greater grasp then you in the speed force, and someone being faster than you that doesn't have the speed force. That's my biggest issue.
Ultimately, the speed force is meant to be the source that grants an individual the highest speed capabilities. This is essentially what separates the flash from someone like Wonder Woman and Superman, who are incredibly fast but also have a long list of powers not associated with speed. To have people not granted the speed force somehow faster than those who are while also carrying other powers as well is where the huge issue lies.

Because now with Nu Wally state, not only do you have people who are faster than him, like Shazam, but they also can fly, have the strength to carry a mountain, and shoot lightning bolts. Ultimately, he got a pretty crappy deal.

[Frontier]

But that goes back to my original point. It's this idea that because he's a kid, that somehow means he won't be able to compete in higher ends of the spectrum. Nevermind the fact that you have 10 year piano players that blow away 40 year olds with 3 times the amount of experience, artist who's are 18 years old that shock the concept art industry, so forth and so on.

It is also just as believable for someone to not reach their full potential until they grow older, with more experience and time.

Wallace definitely has an aptitude for the Speed Force, but I don't think that makes him naturally faster at his level and age.

So that's what I mean, it's not some predetermine factor that because he's a kid, he has to be considered slower. The writers choose for him to be run of the mill when it comes to the speed force. They could have easily have him be as someone who's talented in the speed force. Hell, they did that on the show, Wally was still a newb and inexperience in the speed force, but because of his talent was faster than Barry.

Wally wasn't really faster then Barry because of his talents, it was more his speed just developed at a faster rate then Barry's did.

(And then Barry still ended up being much faster then Wally).

[JackDaw]

Are there really any cogent rules around the speed force?

That would probably be an interesting thread by itself.

But I’ll state my bias. I don’t think there are. I think..for example..it could just as easily be a convenient energy source for some speedsters, as opposed to the energy source ALL real speedsters must use.

And certainly different speedsters accessing it, might still have very different ability levels, with some channelling it far more effectively than others.

I’d personally be sad to see some “rule” that said ALL characters that can access speed force are faster than all other characters. To take that line ignores rich history of many other key characters such as Wonder Woman and Superman...these have been top echelon speedster throughout their history.

And I certainly agree with the point I think Frontier is making...we don’t want to have one blanket prescription for young speed force users, some should be lightning fast from beginning, others shouldn’t. Otherwise, stories are limited needlessly.

Surely no one has forgotten that one of most interesting aspects of Wally’s own “career” was when his speed was severely limited.

[The Other SpiderMan]

Because now with Nu Wally state, not only do you have people who are faster than him, like Shazam, but they also can fly, have the strength to carry a mountain, and shoot lightning bolts. Ultimately, he got a pretty crappy deal.

To be fair the Speed Force gives more powers than just superspeed. Wallace can also shoot lightning bolts, run through solid objects and destroy anything he happens to run through, etc. We also know Wallace has insane potential and got a glimpse of it when his older self was able to outclass even future Barry Allen during the New 52 Flash run so if he's ever allowed to age he has that to look forward to.

I think it's fair to have him on the lower half of the top 10. They could've did him dirtier and not have him on the list at all. It's not like this list even matter. It's just one writer's opinion on a race that will never happen and I doubt he even put too much thought into it. I don't like how he's below Godspeed though. He should be even less experienced with the Speed Force than Wallace since he's had it and trained with it for less time than him.

[leo619]

It is also just as believable for someone to not reach their full potential until they grow older, with more experience and time.

Wallace definitely has an aptitude for the Speed Force, but I don't think that makes him naturally faster at his level and age.

Wally wasn't really faster then Barry because of his talents, it was more his speed just developed at a faster rate then Barry's did.

(And then Barry still ended up being much faster then Wally).

Barry was never indicated as being much faster than Wally on the television show. It just that even with Wally's enhance speed, he still couldn't save Iris during that time.

With that said, I disagree, the more aptitude you have at a younger rate, the higher you excel than someone who doesn't have this aptitude. Of course that doesn't mean it's a guarantee that it's you will always excel. (Someone without as much aptitude but puts in more hard work could surpass you for example.) But again, all of that is determine by what the writer decides to do with the character. And that's why I said I'm not surprised that they went this route.

With that said, my primary issue isn't the fact that he's among the slower end of the speed force users. My main issue is the fact that he's below non-speed force users. That's where it's extremely off putting.

[leo619]

To be fair the Speed Force gives more powers than just superspeed. Wallace can also shoot lightning bolts, run through solid objects and destroy anything he happens to run through, etc. We also know Wallace has insane potential and got a glimpse of it when his older self was able to outclass even future Barry Allen during the New 52 Flash run so if he's ever allowed to age he has that to look forward to.

I think it's fair to have him on the lower half of the top 10. They could've did him dirtier and not have him on the list at all. It's not like this list even matter. It's just one writer's opinion on a race that will never happen and I doubt he even put too much thought into it. I don't like how he's below Godspeed though. He should be even less experienced with the Speed Force than Wallace since he's had it and trained with it for less time than him.

But all of that is based around his speed. For example, if you took away the strength of hercules from Shazam, he still would have all of his other remaining powers, because they are all separate powers that combines into a uber powerful package. The same with Superman. Superman ability to shoot lazers out of his eyes is determined by his strength, each component is separate that creates the powerhouses that they are.

That doesn't apply with the speed force. Wallace lightning bolts, run through solid objects etc is all based around his speed. You take away his speed, and that's it, there's no other abilities that's associated with it. Ultimately, he uses his speed to branch off into other abilities, but the core dynamic is still the speed force.

So as stated before, IMO, they did him very dirty. It doesn't matter that it could be worse. For me, it's the same behavior we seen with their half attempt with cyborg. It's a common behavior we've seen especially when it comes to black characters. Top 10 strongest heroes created by DC list?
Good luck with that. They happen to toss a bone with Mr.Terrific in terms of 10 ten most intelligent (though who knows where he stands now in rebirth status) But ultimately, IMO, there's no way he should be below non speed force users. The speed force users should be the top of the charts when it comes to speed and non speed force users should be below them. The fact that shazam, superman, and wonder woman can survive a tank blast straight to the face while Wally can't, or can lift a white whale to safety and wouldn't even need their speed is reasons enough

[Waterfall]

Wonder is part of Trinity so she's there for the same reason as Superman. Cheetah is her archenemy. Shazam is there because he is powered by Mercury himself and has the feats of going to Rock of Eternity within a second. Having Speed Force doesn't matter if you can't make educated use of it.

That being said, the list after Barry & Wally are open to change and once Bart & Jay come in, we will have a different list altogether.

[Waterfall]

Barry was never indicated as being much faster than Wally on the television show. It just that even with Wally's enhance speed, he still couldn't save Iris during that time.

With that said, I disagree, the more aptitude you have at a younger rate, the higher you excel than someone who doesn't have this aptitude. Of course that doesn't mean it's a guarantee that it's you will always excel. (Someone without as much aptitude but puts in more hard work could surpass you for example.) But again, all of that is determine by what the writer decides to do with the character. And that's why I said I'm not surprised that they went this route.

With that said, my primary issue isn't the fact that he's among the slower end of the speed force users. My main issue is the fact that he's below non-speed force users. That's where it's extremely off putting.

Season 4 had Wally admitting Barry was the true fastest man alive. Legends also referred to him as the "second fastest".

But all of that is based around his speed. For example, if you took away the strength of hercules from Shazam, he still would have all of his other remaining powers, because they are all separate powers that combines into a uber powerful package. The same with Superman. Superman ability to shoot lazers out of his eyes is determined by his strength, each component is separate that creates the powerhouses that they are.

That doesn't apply with the speed force. Wallace lightning bolts, run through solid objects etc is all based around his speed. You take away his speed, and that's it, there's no other abilities that's associated with it. Ultimately, he uses his speed to branch off into other abilities, but the core dynamic is still the speed force.

So as stated before, IMO, they did him very dirty. It doesn't matter that it could be worse. For me, it's the same behavior we seen with their half attempt with cyborg. It's a common behavior we've seen especially when it comes to black characters. Top 10 strongest heroes created by DC list?
Good luck with that. They happen to toss a bone with Mr.Terrific in terms of 10 ten most intelligent (though who knows where he stands now in rebirth status) But ultimately, IMO, there's no way he should be below non speed force users. The speed force users should be the top of the charts when it comes to speed and non speed force users should be below them. The fact that shazam, superman, and wonder woman can survive a tank blast straight to the face while Wally can't, or can lift a white whale to safety and wouldn't even need their speed is reasons enough

I despise this character but I will still give you this much: If Wally never returned, Wallace would have been higher on this list, I agree. But the thing is Wallace was a misstep from the inception and I WISH, we had a new black speedster altogether. From his name to his introduction everything was stacked against him and if he wasn't called Wally West but John Smith, didn't have his first appearence as paintspraying a wall, he would have been more successful. For that I blame DC too.

[leo619]

Season 4 had Wally admitting Barry was the true fastest man alive. Legends also referred to him as the "second fastest".



I despise this character but I will still give you this much: If Wally never returned, Wallace would have been higher on this list, I agree. But the thing is Wallace was a misstep from the inception and I WISH, we had a new black speedster altogether. From his name to his introduction everything was stacked against him and if he wasn't called Wally West but John Smith, didn't have his first appearence as paintspraying a wall, he would have been more successful. For that I blame DC too.

Eh not really, New Superman had none of those issues and he still had a low selling series. But the success of minority heroes is for an entirely different thread. I definitely had an issue with him tagging and his original behavior, but DC did a lot for me to reprimand the original stereotypical background they went with Wally. So I'm definitely much happier with the character now.

[Frontier]

Barry was never indicated as being much faster than Wally on the television show. It just that even with Wally's enhance speed, he still couldn't save Iris during that time.

In season 3 neither one was presented as being necessarily faster then the other, and Wally's speed wasn't so much enhanced as just growing at a different rate, though Barry pretty much eclipsed Wally in season 4.

With that said, I disagree, the more aptitude you have at a younger rate, the higher you excel than someone who doesn't have this aptitude. Of course that doesn't mean it's a guarantee that it's you will always excel. (Someone without as much aptitude but puts in more hard work could surpass you for example.) But again, all of that is determine by what the writer decides to do with the character. And that's why I said I'm not surprised that they went this route.

But even with that aptitude, a lack of experience and physical development means you may not necessarily have the same kind of exceptional ability you would have at a later age.

It all just really depends on the individual.

With that said, my primary issue isn't the fact that he's among the slower end of the speed force users. My main issue is the fact that he's below non-speed force users. That's where it's extremely off putting.

Non-Speed Force users have been shown to be on par with the Flashes at certain point, even if they're not able to surpass them.

And natural speed also doesn't seem to be the be-all of the list, as Wonder Woman's training as an Amazon seems to factor into her placement.

Season 4 had Wally admitting Barry was the true fastest man alive. Legends also referred to him as the "second fastest".

Thanks to a speed boost from the Speed Force.

[Waterfall]

Eh not really, New Superman had none of those issues and he still had a low selling series. But the success of minority heroes is for an entirely different thread. I definitely had an issue with him tagging and his original behavior, but DC did a lot for me to reprimand the original stereotypical background they went with Wally. So I'm definitely much happier with the character now.

Without going too OT (and my last answer on the matter);

New Superman is actually a success. It gained a great fan traction and characters are fan favorites. Jessica Cruz is also incredibly successful.

I find his character very inconsistent (per TT special), his origins convoluted and he is a burden on Wally's shoulders. As long as he's not completely divorced from Wally himself (changing the name a bit is a step but the name isn't distinctive enough for me & he still steals from Wally like Chunk and blowing up power up etc.), we will see problems like this again.

[leo619]

In season 3 neither one was presented as being necessarily faster then the other, and Wally's speed wasn't so much enhanced as just growing at a different rate, though Barry pretty much eclipsed Wally in season 4.

But even with that aptitude, a lack of experience and physical development means you may not necessarily have the same kind of exceptional ability you would have at a later age.

It all just really depends on the individual.

Non-Speed Force users have been shown to be on par with the Flashes at certain point, even if they're not able to surpass them.

And natural speed also doesn't seem to be the be-all of the list, as Wonder Woman's training as an Amazon seems to factor into her placement.

Thanks to a speed boost from the Speed Force.

And again, that's entirely my issue. Now I'm focusing on Wally because I'm a fan of his, but the point is meant for all the speedsters being granted the speed force. Avery? No where on this list, a complete insult to her. IMO, having non speedsters being able to match on par with those that focus entirely on speed dilutes the ordeal of them being speedsters. Especially when it done with individuals like Superman, Shazam, and Wonder Woman that has like an 5-8 fold powerset. Imagine being Wallace, and know that this guy is not only faster than you, the only thing you excel in, but he's able to lift a bullet train, can fly so he doesn't even need to run, and can take a nuclear explosion and survive, oh and shoots eye lasers and can freeze people in case he wanted to do things far away. It's asinine really.

[leo619]

Without going too OT (and my last answer on the matter);

New Superman is actually a success. It gained a great fan traction and characters are fan favorites. Jessica Cruz is also incredibly successful.

I find his character very inconsistent (per TT special), his origins convoluted and he is a burden on Wally's shoulders. As long as he's not completely divorced from Wally himself (changing the name a bit is a step but the name isn't distinctive enough for me & he still steals from Wally like Chunk and blowing up power up etc.), we will see problems like this again.

Disagree regarding New Superman, he has a small cult following that most people ignore because they don't interfere with the books or character they're interested in. That's the issue that separates things like Cyborg and Wally from New Superman and Silencer. Cyborg and Wally are changes to preestablished characters that disrupts their enjoyment because it's not like the past. New Superman and Silencer are new characters that does not interfere with preestablished characters and thus can be ignored. So the "issues" that people associate with Wally currently are just classic fan hiccups which doesn't bother me at all. So for me, it's not a problem.


With that said, a success is when you can actually successfully sell a solo series. That's when you have a success. So Jessica Cruz, I can see as a success, GLC was really DC's only successful minority solo series since Rebirth (and arguably new 52 for that matter) But again, this is a tangent for a different thread.

[The Other SpiderMan]

But all of that is based around his speed. For example, if you took away the strength of hercules from Shazam, he still would have all of his other remaining powers, because they are all separate powers that combines into a uber powerful package. The same with Superman. Superman ability to shoot lazers out of his eyes is determined by his strength, each component is separate that creates the powerhouses that they are.

That doesn't apply with the speed force. Wallace lightning bolts, run through solid objects etc is all based around his speed. You take away his speed, and that's it, there's no other abilities that's associated with it. Ultimately, he uses his speed to branch off into other abilities, but the core dynamic is still the speed force.

So as stated before, IMO, they did him very dirty. It doesn't matter that it could be worse. For me, it's the same behavior we seen with their half attempt with cyborg. It's a common behavior we've seen especially when it comes to black characters. Top 10 strongest heroes created by DC list?
Good luck with that. They happen to toss a bone with Mr.Terrific in terms of 10 ten most intelligent (though who knows where he stands now in rebirth status) But ultimately, IMO, there's no way he should be below non speed force users. The speed force users should be the top of the charts when it comes to speed and non speed force users should be below them. The fact that shazam, superman, and wonder woman can survive a tank blast straight to the face while Wally can't, or can lift a white whale to safety and wouldn't even need their speed is reasons enough

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. To me it's just not worth getting worked up over. Again, this isn't DC's definitive list of fastest characters in their universe, it's just one writer's seemingly lazy opinion to help fill a few pages in DC Nation and I doubt DC wanted a list showing a bunch of Flash variants and Superman. If DC came out and said this list was canon or hyped this list up to the point that it started getting more traction I'd be more upset but for now I'm just satisfied they didn't leave him off completely.

I do agree that Speed Force users should be the pinnacle of speedsters and Wallace should rank higher than any non-Speed Force user except maybe Superman but this list isn't worth getting worked up over. I am curious to see what other people's top 10 would look like since no one seems to agree with this list except for people who are happy with their favorite character's placement.

[Yonekunih]

Wow, Barry's caption box is messed up, and they said DC loves Barry wow