Why Does Anyone Continue?

[The Dying Detective]

I'm a bit confused about what you're saying here. Are you asking why bother reading DC/Marvel when they pull stuff like this past Batman issue? I mean, would I have liked things to turn out different? Yes. But I wouldn't say that it really affects me enough to put me off of comics...

In a way that is what I am saying to a degree. And often some peopel boycott the merchandise and what not some permanently some temporarily until something draws them back in.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

In a way that is what I am saying to a degree. And often some peopel boycott the merchandise and what not some permanently some temporarily until something draws them back in.

Well, my response to that would probably be that these "soap opera-esque" twists and plot developments are part of why people buy comics in the first place. You don't want everything to go smoothly for the hero after all because otherwise there'd be no conflict, whether we're talking literal or personal conflict. This past Batman issue seems more along the lines of that as opposed to any editorial mandate or interference insisting on a specific status quo.

[DevilBat66]

People get mad but I doubt anyone on this forum is ever going to be mad enough to get rid of all their DC comics and trades
And that's exactly why nothing changes because all the outrage amounts to nothing.
Batman will still be DC's top book

I've perma-dropped a alot of books in the last few years. People do it all the time. That's why sales go down instead of up. Cancellation territory was over 100,00 copies a month when I was a kid and now it fluctuates around 15,000. Tells me that lots of folks drop books and never come back.
I also tend to sell off my stuff when I drop it. Pretty much why I only have around 2000 comics after collecting for over 4 decades.

Loud mouthed fans on the internet are not representative of the average buyer. Most people don't buy things that they do not enjoy just to bitch about it. Especially for years. They just stop.

It always bugs me when people say that folks don't drop stuff. Yeah, it's true for the small percentage of fandom that lives on the internet but the overwhelming majority of readers, it's not. Just ask your retailers how many of their customers they have that they had 10 or 15 years ago.


That being said, this wedding thing isn't going to effect my buying at all. While I wish it went through, I only half expected it to in the first place. Not the end of the world and definitely not the worst thing to ever happen in a comic I read.

[astro@work]

I tend to buy a lot of comics, but when something sours me I'm going to cull down the pull list for a while.

Why do I continue buying at all? Because I've been reading long enough not to over-react to a one issue twist that reeks of "temporary".
Example" Wally's very temporary "death" in recent issues of Titans. No reason to panic, and quickly undone.

I also have a great fondness for the secondary characters, and know that when sales are really low on a 2nd/3rd tier character, they're not going to cancel the book and bring it right back. They are more likely to cancel the book and shelve the character for a good 5 years before bringing them back. I'm currently disheartened by the shelving of Lillith/Omen, Mal, Garth, Bumblebee in Titans because I know darn well it's going to be forever before we see them again. (Ugh).

So, I'm willing to read less-than-perfect runs (aren't most of them?). What I'm not willing to read is a run that utterly destroys a character and turns them into something I don't recognize. Or boring runs on the big 3 (or big 7 really) that just don't interest me. Droppped the GL books during nu52 for instance, and Green Arrow as well.

I'm likely to pick up a so-so run of JSA, Hawkman, Booster Gold. But I wouldn't buy a run of JSA where the roster is full of people with no connection to the team, or Hawkman is flat out bland and directionless (previous run). I dropped the X-Men for ten years because of too many All-New! All-Different! directions where storylines were dropped in the middle and unresolved. I dropped Avengers for 7 years because they seemed to have no purpose.

[The Dying Detective]

Well, my response to that would probably be that these "soap opera-esque" twists and plot developments are part of why people buy comics in the first place. You don't want everything to go smoothly for the hero after all because otherwise there'd be no conflict, whether we're talking literal or personal conflict. This past Batman issue seems more along the lines of that as opposed to any editorial mandate or interference insisting on a specific status quo.

Well either way it's kind of ridiculous to boycott something only to come back to it but yeah nevertheless it's probably those things that make peole come back to DC and Marvel regardless of the things they have done and even if a some people drop them it's often no big loss.

[cgh]

Well, my response to that would probably be that these "soap opera-esque" twists and plot developments are part of why people buy comics in the first place. You don't want everything to go smoothly for the hero after all because otherwise there'd be no conflict, whether we're talking literal or personal conflict. This past Batman issue seems more along the lines of that as opposed to any editorial mandate or interference insisting on a specific status quo.

You are exactly correct. People seem to place more emphasis on "I want the characters to be happy!" rather than "I want good stories". You don't have good stories without tension, conflict, drama, betrayal and so forth. Clearly the story of Batman and Catwoman is unresolved. Let's see how it plays out before denouncing DC as a corrupt entity intent on screwing over loyal readers.

This whole thing reminds a lot of when Ned Stark was killed on Game of Thrones. Always remember that "kill your darlings" is a rule of fiction.

Finally, I'm not defending bad storytelling. Clearly much or even most superhero comics range from forgettable to lousy. But a story isn't necessarily bad just because things don't go the way you want them to.

[Restingvoice]

I want to add that in some cases DC does show that they turn around, like for example from New 52 to Rebirth. The classic pairings are being paired again, Wally's brought back... sure, the screw it up again, but at that time it was a definitive sign that they listen to fans.

After that, it depends on the fans. Some refuse to take the bait until they see a return to proper form, some jumped in straight away, and others are more cautious, ready to drop them at the first sign of trouble.

[JasonTodd428]

For me, it's the execution of the gimmick, more than the gimmick itself, that will make me leave a book.

That's me too. I felt that the 1-900 gimmick used with Jason Todd's death back in the 80s was absolutely deplorable so I quite reading Batman and DC at that time. I find the marketing gimmick used for Batman #50 to be likewise so again I've dropped Batman and DC. I may come back again later as I did before but for the moment I loath how this was handled and hitting DC in the wallet is the only way, aside of a letter which I've already done, to make that displeasure known.

[skyvolt2000]

I want to add that in some cases DC does show that they turn around, like for example from New 52 to Rebirth. The classic pairings are being paired again, Wally's brought back... sure, the screw it up again, but at that time it was a definitive sign that they listen to fans.

If they didn't screw it up in the first place you wouldn't need to hear it from fans.

Trashing certain characters for your pets only added fuel to the first. Especially when many of the removed sold books and had stronger following than who you tried to force on fans in the first place.

As for the soap opera aspect-you can't expect fans to keep buying depressing stories all the time or get beaten down by the SAME crap. How many times can John Stewart be called out for that planet? Hal's girl killed his wife. Or how many more times can Cyborg cry about Daddy not loving him or getting hacked or torn up by Dc's version of Black Panther.

If you truly listen to fans the same crap does not keep getting repeated.

[The Dying Detective]

As for the soap opera aspect-you can't expect fans to keep buying depressing stories all the time or get beaten down by the SAME crap. How many times can John Stewart be called out for that planet? Hal's girl killed his wife. Or how many more times can Cyborg cry about Daddy not loving him or getting hacked or torn up by Dc's version of Black Panther.

If you truly listen to fans the same crap does not keep getting repeated.

There is a difference between the soap opera stuff that draws people and simply flat out lacking any creative thought. That's on both the writers and editors who fail to realise the need to evolve.

[SwampyCA]

Droppped the GL books during nu52 for instance, and Green Arrow as well.

Hopefully you read the Lemire/Sorrentino Green Arrow cuz that was an amazing run.

[millernumber1]

In light of this unfortunate conclusion of the Wedding in Batman. I found myself asking a big question for all this is why is everyone complaining about Marvel and DC when there are people still buying their stuff? People went into a tirade over the Death in the Family where a hotline was set up to vote for a conclusion that was already decided and they still buy from them. And then came the Death of Superman and they still bought from DC even though complaints came about being cheated. Civil War happened and they still bought from them. One More Day happened and Spider-Man is still in print and selling. The New 52 happened and people still buy DC. Civil War II happened and Marvel still sells somewhat. The mass replacement and downgrade of all Marvel's flagship characters came and people still buy from them. Secret Empire happened and for all the anger regarding Captain America people still buy from Marvel. And now this. Let me ask for all the complaints and predictions that either company would die out one day from all this why is it aside from the odd person out there who has left them out of disappointment why does anyone from them after so many scandals and issues still even buy their stuff? And why should anyone believe that either company would die or a certain franchise would take a hit when the past thirty or so years have proven otherwise for some reason regardless of the bungling of the publishers, public relations guys, editors, and writers?

PS: And no independent publishers are not to be trusted either I know I certainly don't because they are human and can make the same mistakes DC and Marvel have committed.

I mean...I only buy titles where there's an element of trust already there. That means a writer who I trust to tell me a story I know I'll enjoy all the way through (right now, that's Priest and Tynion), or a character I've loved long enough that I can deal with some out of character stuff just to see them progress (Stephanie Brown and Helena Bertinelli for me). Very occasionally I'll take a chance on something new, like I currently am on Nightwing. However, those chances are really few and far between. I keep my buying pretty low (only about one or two titles a week), and Detective Comics is the biggest name of those titles. I've found that the bigger name books are usually the ones that disappoint the most, because editorial tends to mess with those the most (or the writers preemptively meddle with them to avoid editorial).

So I don't buy crossovers or events. I don't buy the big titles. Knowing what you like, and being able to find joy in that narrow band of things I think is the way to go. If you put too much hope or emotional weight on the big things that can't carry them, or in too many series so the overall quality of a line can sap at your energy, I think it can cause more problems. So I keep it small, and the stuff I love intensely, and I've been pretty happy for three years.

[The Dying Detective]

I mean...I only buy titles where there's an element of trust already there. That means a writer who I trust to tell me a story I know I'll enjoy all the way through (right now, that's Priest and Tynion), or a character I've loved long enough that I can deal with some out of character stuff just to see them progress (Stephanie Brown and Helena Bertinelli for me). Very occasionally I'll take a chance on something new, like I currently am on Nightwing. However, those chances are really few and far between. I keep my buying pretty low (only about one or two titles a week), and Detective Comics is the biggest name of those titles. I've found that the bigger name books are usually the ones that disappoint the most, because editorial tends to mess with those the most (or the writers preemptively meddle with them to avoid editorial).

So I don't buy crossovers or events. I don't buy the big titles. Knowing what you like, and being able to find joy in that narrow band of things I think is the way to go. If you put too much hope or emotional weight on the big things that can't carry them, or in too many series so the overall quality of a line can sap at your energy, I think it can cause more problems. So I keep it small, and the stuff I love intensely, and I've been pretty happy for three years.

Well that's what you do I'm mind boggled by how DC and Marvel still sell and some people think it's their fault for creating a culture where people still buy from them regardless of any feelings of disrespect. As far as buying anything from them i generally refrain from comic book collecting in general because of how expensive it can be in the long over here they cost twelve Ringgit for a floppy.

[Jon Clark]

You are exactly correct. People seem to place more emphasis on "I want the characters to be happy!" rather than "I want good stories". You don't have good stories without tension, conflict, drama, betrayal and so forth. Clearly the story of Batman and Catwoman is unresolved. Let's see how it plays out before denouncing DC as a corrupt entity intent on screwing over loyal readers.

This whole thing reminds a lot of when Ned Stark was killed on Game of Thrones. Always remember that "kill your darlings" is a rule of fiction.

Finally, I'm not defending bad storytelling. Clearly much or even most superhero comics range from forgettable to lousy. But a story isn't necessarily bad just because things don't go the way you want them to.

But there is a sense of despair, or even just boredom, when you know the characters will never get ahead. Over at Marvel, I dropped Spider-man after One More Day not because I didn't want a single Peter parker but because the story effectively removed any drama from Spider-romance. If the goal was to avoid a married Spider-man then regardless of who Pete dated the end result would ALWAYS be a break-up. I didn't need to see peter date to enjoy a story, but since one of the stated goals was to open up his dating pool according to Quesada and Breevort it seemed that would be a focus. Having also seen Aunt May and Harry Osborn resurrected meant death wasn't going to stick for characters here either. So I stepped off the merry-go-round.

I can easily see someone having come to the same conclusion about DC. Going from a young Superman who dated Diana to a return of the Pre-Flashpoint status quo could convince you Superman is just going to keep running in place and that anything interesting that occurs is just a blip that isn't worth getting attached to. Or maybe you finally realized that even 20 years in the role isn't enough to prevent having the status quo steal your hero's spot? Or having that dead character suddenly come back to life (Jason) or that living character suddenly revised to have been long dead (the Kents). I mean at some point it hits you that you've seen it all before and that the next big story twist for 2019 is exactly where you came in a few decades ago.

[numberthirty]

Yeah Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis were prime examples of how disposable the lower tier characters can be to DC and Marvel. Still thos count as I was referring to scandals in general that upset and cause uproars so loud you'd think it time for either company to go under.

Uh, no. I really wouldn't.