Which Wonder Woman villains should she be unable to beat in a fight?

[GodofBoredom]

I was thinking about Grail today, and how she started off as somebody who was above Diana within Darkseid War, but became a punching bag in James Robinson's arc.

So, on that note,
Which of Diana's villain(s) do you think that should be portrayed as above Diana beating in a direct fight, and there'd need to be specific contexts and plot-devices in order to vanquish him/her?
Ares?
Circe?
Grail?
Cheetah?

I, for one, would have Ares (their fights are almost always more about themes, rather than attacks) and Circe, consistently. I'd like for Diana to have special preparations when fighting them (armory, perhaps? magical incantations?).

I'd also like for somebody like Cheetah to be more nifty. Play up her unpredictability, try to take Diana's sword/shield and use it for herself.

Thoughts?

[Fuzzy Mittens]

A bit of an odd question since depending on the story any character will always beat any other character.
When it comes to Wonder Woman rogues im not sure I would have such a requirement. Its never been a thing for Batman and Superman, I don't see why it would be necesary with Wonder Woman.

Though as for characters who Wonder Woman shouldn't be able to win against...Im gonna have to say Hippolyta.

[GodofBoredom]

My intent was to ask for the confrontation to be without any other story-specific context. Within the story, Diana eventually trumphs, one way or the other, obviously.

To give a better example, Thor can't beat Surtur if he just appears without any warning beforehand. And against somebody like the Destroyer, he triumphs by specific soul-related plot-devices, but would lose in a direct fight. Mangog was beating Asgard in its entirety, Thor and Odin included, and Jane needed to destroy Mjolnir inside the sun with him attached to it in order to triumph.

And it's a bit recent, but Rogol Zor that just appeared in Man of Steel is, by Superman's own words, above him, and he can't beat him, only delay him until he finds a plot-device, which comes in the form of the Phantom Zone projector. Or Doomsday, in most incarnations, was above Superman (the first fight he died, and the Hunter Prey version was far above Superman). Same with Wraith, who was somebody who was above him.

Batman has had his fair amount of matches against Lady Shiva and Bronze Tiger, in which the outcome is always in doubt. Bane with Venom can generally beat him straight-up, too.

So I mean that type of villain. Genocide was the closest that comes to mind.

[AmiMizuno]

A bit of an odd question since depending on the story any character will always beat any other character.
When it comes to Wonder Woman rogues im not sure I would have such a requirement. Its never been a thing for Batman and Superman, I don't see why it would be necesary with Wonder Woman.

Though as for characters who Wonder Woman shouldn't be able to win against...Im gonna have to say Hippolyta.

Becuase she is her mother or because Hippolyta should be much stronger?

[Agent 86]

I guess ... Ares, although she should be able to fight him to a standstill. And she should be able to bind him with her lasso.

And maybe Circe, but more so because Circe conjures magical creatures for Diana to physically battle and while Diana is distracted, Circe makes her magical escape.

I guess the same would kind of apply to someone like Dr Psycho, although obviously once Diana breaks through his psychic manipulations, she can easily capture / defeat him.

Cheetah should always be a challenge because she is wild, uncontrolled and ferocious. Cheetah should "fight dirty", something which Diana is somewhat unaccustomed to. The fact that Cheetah is also Diana's beloved friend (or more) Barbara is another reason for Diana to hold back when battling Cheetah.

At the end of the day, the hero always has to be victorious. If the audience is told that Diana can never defeat ... Ares, then their battles wouldn't be particularly engaging.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

My intent was to ask for the confrontation to be without any other story-specific context. Within the story, Diana eventually trumphs, one way or the other, obviously.

To give a better example, Thor can't beat Surtur if he just appears without any warning beforehand. And against somebody like the Destroyer, he triumphs by specific soul-related plot-devices, but would lose in a direct fight. Mangog was beating Asgard in its entirety, Thor and Odin included, and Jane needed to destroy Mjolnir inside the sun with him attached to it in order to triumph.

And it's a bit recent, but Rogol Zor that just appeared in Man of Steel is, by Superman's own words, above him, and he can't beat him, only delay him until he finds a plot-device, which comes in the form of the Phantom Zone projector. Or Doomsday, in most incarnations, was above Superman (the first fight he died, and the Hunter Prey version was far above Superman). Same with Wraith, who was somebody who was above him.

Batman has had his fair amount of matches against Lady Shiva and Bronze Tiger, in which the outcome is always in doubt. Bane with Venom can generally beat him straight-up, too.

So I mean that type of villain. Genocide was the closest that comes to mind.

Ah, I see.
I guess it really depends on how Ares is approached because hes been all over the place in terms of ability. When Diana first fought him as Mars way back in the golden age, it was all Diana could do to avoid his blows and trick him into destroying his own castle while she made a run for it. Under Perez he was only beatable because Wonder Woman reasoned with him and talked things out. Takes which established him to be this powerful entity that could only be outsmarted, never defeated head on.
But then you have examples like the O'Neil version where Ares invaded the island with an army and a depowered Diana died besting him in battle and that was also kinda fascinating...
If you write him to be the sort to charge head on as a physical threat then I see him as beatable. But if you write him as a powerful god for whom physical might is the least of his abilities then he shouldn't be beatable.

Circe is a bit of a trick question because her entire style is to avoid direct confrontations in any case. Id argue shes more like Mr. Mxyzptlk in that sense. If Wonder Woman mannages to get her lasso around her I see Diana winning it but I can also see Circe using sorcery to avoid that as much as possible.

Though then you have villains like Morganna who is established to be an all powerful sorceress who dwarfs her mother Morgan Le Fay in power who even without magic is more powerful than Wonder Woman and can only be defeated with a banishing spell she invented specifically to work on herself.

Becuase she is her mother or because Hippolyta should be much stronger?

Because if your going to use Hippolyta it only makes sense to give the girdle which was a part of her myth and in the comics that girdle makes her invincible and incapable of losing.
On top of that its been a reoccuring thing every time that Hippolyta and Diana have fought that the two are roughly in the same ballpark in terms of ability and that while Diana is good, she has nothing on her mother in terms of skill and technique.

[Phoenixx9]

In the golden age, Hippolyta might have been the best Amazon in terms of strength, speed and skill.

But in the silver and modern age, Diana far exceeds Hippolyta in those same areas.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

No, during the silver age Hippolyta was still stronger. It wasn't until the 80s when the magic girdle was dropped that Hippolyta was given a drop of power and even then Diana never actually defeated Hippolyta

[Phoenixx9]

That was the time period I was thinking of--after the Crisis. I thought that was when Diana's powers were said to be more than any other Amazon?

[Fuzzy Mittens]

It was pretty inconsistent. Sometimes Diana was the only one with powers. Other times they all had powers. At one point Diana and Hippolyta were going at it and were punching eachother into space. But even then Dianas never beaten Hippolyta. She serves as this figure for Diana to aspire to

[My Two Cents]

Writers like to portray Diana like a one trick pony.
If D C was to dump all the heroes and villains on to an
island naked, Diana would be able to match and exceed
anything 99% of them could do.

[Rogue]

People like Darkseid and some gods/goddess characters.