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  1. #61
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    I'm honestly kinda surprised that more writers don't want to write about married heroes. It just feels like an obvious relatively untapped gold mine of new stories to tell that hasn't really been explored.
    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    To be totally honest, having read some of the earlier ASM stuff through the Epic Collections, I'm not sure that the drama and hijinks were that great to begin with. Peter's relationship with Betty Brant in the Lee/Ditko stuff is excruciating and I really don't understand why Gwen Stacy was so great (but that's a character I've never really liked that much in the first place, so confirmation bias). Like anything, I will concede it's all in the writing, though. USM, for example, did have similar kinds of drama, but I didn't have a problem with that, given that I think that the situations were given more nuance and worked to build the characters more.
    Even though I know Peter's relationship drama does eventually get better/interesting, since I'm currently reading the original stuff (at issue 28 atm) I just wanna say that the stuff with Betty has been pretty bad so far. Don't even get me started on the love triangle between Peter, Betty and Liz...

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmernudie View Post
    Really?

    Flash and Iris
    Luke and Jessica Jones
    Jean Grey and Scott
    Bruce and Betty
    Vision and Scarlett Witch
    Batman and Talia
    Antman and Wasp
    Black Panther and Storm
    Big Barda and Mr Miracle
    Hawkeye and Mockingbird
    Green Arrow and Canary
    Quicksilver and Crystal
    Superman and Lois
    Reed and Sue


    These are not only examples to writers who can't think of stories to tell if characters are married but to how they can also have changes in various ways...these are not "end of stories" as King explains.
    The majority of this list is super powered people married to other super powered people. Makes it a LOT easier to work with.

    Of the couples where that is not true (Flash & Superman), most of the stories told involve saving their spouse or keeping them out of harm's way. Which was what a lot of married Spider-man stories focused. Some of them were good, but that gets repetitive.

    I don't read Renew your Vows, but it seems MJ has the ability to fight alongside Peter in this universe (daughter also)? Again, makes it easier to write about...

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendOfTheAngryBlonde View Post
    I'm honestly kinda surprised that more writers don't want to write about married heroes. It just feels like an obvious relatively untapped gold mine of new stories to tell that hasn't really been explored.
    It it were a gold mine, it would be tapped by now.

    In a 22 page ACTION comic, how much of it can you devote to the marriage aspect? For the couple in which both are super-powered, it's easy, as they can both be part of the fight, otherwise it's a damsel (or guy) in distress story.

    If you focus too much on the marriage (i.e. the actual stuff of making a relationship work) then where does the action come in?

    Back in the day when they did the love and romance comics, is where this could work.

    Don't get me wrong, there were some good married Spider-man stories told, but I also recall a lot of damsel in distress stories, or stories that involved "Hey, MJ stay with so and so or chill in Avengers mansion until this villain of the month issue is resolved" or "Bye, honey I'm off to to save the day, see ya when I get back, smooches".

    I've spent just as much time with single Spidey and married Spidey. I admit to preferring single, but honestly don't care what his status is. Just give me a good story!

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    The idea that a skilled writer would find it more difficult to find at least as many plot lines for a married Peter as a single one never occurred to me.

    I always assumed that Marvel were delivering what they believed most fans really want...a teen-age (at most early twenties) Spider-man, single, hence with licence to have a string of girl friends.

    And I still think that’s the most likely driving force...I think it was sales driven, rather than worrying about whether individual writers found it easier to write stories using an unmarried Peter.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmernudie View Post
    Really?

    Flash and Iris
    Luke and Jessica Jones
    Jean Grey and Scott
    Bruce and Betty
    Vision and Scarlett Witch
    Batman and Talia
    Antman and Wasp
    Black Panther and Storm
    Big Barda and Mr Miracle
    Hawkeye and Mockingbird
    Green Arrow and Canary
    Quicksilver and Crystal
    Superman and Lois
    Reed and Sue


    These are not only examples to writers who can't think of stories to tell if characters are married but to how they can also have changes in various ways...these are not "end of stories" as King explains.
    Many of these marriages focus on characters who aren't leads, and some of the others also came to an end within a few years. Batman and Talia lasted for the duration of a one-shot. Quicksilver and Crystal were basically supporting characters.

    Which of these relationships featured significant change, what were those changes, and how could that be used in the Spider-Man comics?
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    Mets wanna know why your argument is broken?

    Because

    a) Polyamourous couples are a thing

    b) Couples with open relationships/'arrangements' are a thing

    c) Spider-Man sleeping with the Black Cat isn't a story. It's Spider-Man sleeping with the Black Cat.

    d) Spider-Man sleeping with the Black Cat (or anyone) is not an acceptable trade off to NOT having the marriage. Thinking it is is evocative of the very type of hack superficial BS the person you replied to was saying

    e) Spider-Man sleeping with Black Cat as happened under BND wasn't a valid story direction regardless of him being married or not.

    Spider-Man is NOT someone who'd enter into a sex friends relationship.

    Black Cat is NOT someone who'd want that out of a relationship with Spider-Man.

    Spider-Man would NOT break the law by breaking and entering to have sex.

    Spider-Man would NOT let a thief walk free merely because she is having sex with him.

    Spider-Man knows better than to trust Felicia at this point romantically.

    It NEVER made sense as was and he was not married to her anyway.

    Oh and you know...it blew up all her character deveopment since about 1983.

    You cannot justify him not being married on the grounds that you couldn't do a story like that because you shouldn't be doing a story like that at all.

    e) Character development in line with the core values of the character and the series and the vision of Spider-Man's original creator is very obviously a legitimate trade off.
    a/b) Open relationships and polyamorous relationships are really only an option if you think this is a story that is worth exploring in Marvel comics for Spider-Man and Mary Jane. Does it fit your understanding of the characters and Marvel's business interests in preserving Spider-Man's brand?

    c) I agree that Spider-Man sleeping with the Black Cat isn't a story; however, it is part of a story.

    d) It isn't just about whether Peter's able to sleep with someone else, but about his efforts in making a human connection, and the things that get in the way.

    e) And an open relationship is okay?

    f) There will be a lot of disagreement on the core values of the character.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendOfTheAngryBlonde View Post
    Even though I know Peter's relationship drama does eventually get better/interesting, since I'm currently reading the original stuff (at issue 28 atm) I just wanna say that the stuff with Betty has been pretty bad so far. Don't even get me started on the love triangle between Peter, Betty and Liz...
    Amen.

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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by wleakr View Post
    Don't get me wrong, there were some good married Spider-man stories told, but I also recall a lot of damsel in distress stories, or stories that involved "Hey, MJ stay with so and so or chill in Avengers mansion until this villain of the month issue is resolved" or "Bye, honey I'm off to to save the day, see ya when I get back, smooches".
    Nothing wrong with the latter, nice slice of life, and MJ was no damsel.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    How is marriage changeable in the comics?
    Through writing, the ultimate nullifier of comics.

    Specifically its through just keeping the spouse busy, or off screen, or in extreme cases maybe in cryostatis or something (a la Dr. Freeze's wife). Marriage in comics is not like marriage irl, in hardly any case.

    Case in point - the recent ending to the Man of Steel miniseries. Bendis just made Superman effectively single again.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 07-09-2018 at 10:46 AM.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Case in point - the recent ending to the Man of Steel miniseries. Bendis just made Superman effectively single again.
    No he didn't. Lois and Jon went on a glorified summer break, Supes going to spend some time looking for them, and Bendis confirmed on word baloon today he is writing a big story involving Lois and Clark in a couple of issues time in Action Comics, which takes place after the events in the Superman title.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    No he didn't. Lois and Jon went on a glorified summer break, Supes going to spend some time looking for them, and Bendis confirmed on word baloon today he is writing a big story involving Lois and Clark in a couple of issues time in Action Comics, which takes place after the events in the Superman title.
    Be that as it may, the time Lois and Jon stay away could have been extended based on the circumstances. It still serves as an example, regardless of the future plans.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Be that as it may, the time Lois and Jon stay away could have been extended based on the circumstances. It still serves as an example, regardless of the future plans.
    Lois. Is. back. Almost. Immediately.

    It serves no example.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Lois. Is. back. Almost. Immediately.

    It serves no example.
    I believe Bendis even said Lois will be in Action Comics #1001, and then Jon shows back up a bit later, so yeah, it is immediately. Although it does ruin my joke that DC "planed" Lois and Selina on the same day
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  14. #74
    Mighty Member whiteshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    Marriage is a form of growth and progression and character development as most people in life get a long term life partner to share in their lives.

    Character development is good and 99% of the time key to good storytelling or at least a vital component to it.

    Character development was a foundation stone of the Marvel Universe which changed comic books forever to the point wherein DC reorientated their universe to better incorporate character development. Hence you got a Superman and Lois Lane who’s relationship actually developed instead of being stuck perennially in second gear. And you got a Batman who went through the loss of Jason Todd, decided to be alone, accepted Tim Drake and we saw Tim grow into a fully fledged partner.

    Also it wasn’t even exclusive to post-crisis DC. Wolfman’s Titans work saw characters grow and evolve and in a way Marston’s Wonder Woman did the same as the Baroness transitioned from a Nazi villainess into an Amazonian sister.

    People WANT growth and progression.

    Oversimplyfying things to a wedding specifically without looking at what they really want, growth, is misreading the situation.
    So you are speaking in the name of the people ?
    When was the voting to nominate you as the leader of the comic book fans,i must had missed the voting day.

    I think if it is as simple as you say,meaning good characters are only characters that are married.It´s obvious that all the super heroes would be married.But this thing called reality says that this is not the case.
    So since we estabilished by looking at the more popular super heroes that not all or even close, are married characters,so excuuuuse me if i don´t believe in the premesis of your opinion.

  15. #75
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wleakr View Post
    It it were a gold mine, it would be tapped by now.

    In a 22 page ACTION comic, how much of it can you devote to the marriage aspect? For the couple in which both are super-powered, it's easy, as they can both be part of the fight, otherwise it's a damsel (or guy) in distress story.

    If you focus too much on the marriage (i.e. the actual stuff of making a relationship work) then where does the action come in?

    Back in the day when they did the love and romance comics, is where this could work.

    Don't get me wrong, there were some good married Spider-man stories told, but I also recall a lot of damsel in distress stories, or stories that involved "Hey, MJ stay with so and so or chill in Avengers mansion until this villain of the month issue is resolved" or "Bye, honey I'm off to to save the day, see ya when I get back, smooches".

    I've spent just as much time with single Spidey and married Spidey. I admit to preferring single, but honestly don't care what his status is. Just give me a good story!
    Maybe I'm just over simplifying things but it doesn't seem that complicated to me. Why wouldn't you give it the same amount of focus you'd give any other romantic relationship?

    Just because a character gets married it doesn't mean that it has to become a driving force in the book outside of archs where it's relevant to the story being told.

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