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  1. #1
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    Default A response to Tom King

    SPOILERS for Batman volume 3 #50

    In the issue, Catwoman is seized by an attack of conscience, and decides not to marry Batman, on the grounds that making him happy would destroy the “engine” that drives the Dark Knight and he would no longer be able to protect people who need him.
    If this feels somewhat familiar, it is because her argument – that Batman is driven not by a need to see real justice but by the psychological damage wrought by watching his parents slaughtered as a child, so effective therapy or the right situation at home could end his reign – is one that (often half-serious) fans have made, and even creators like Frank Miller seem to at least sort of believe if you read between the lines of their work.“I think there is a difference between Batman and Superman on this level. Maybe Spider-man’s a better example,” King told ComicBook.com at New York Comic Con last year (you can see the video above). “I think when people see the marriage between Spider-Man and Mary Jane, a lot of people see the end of a story. ‘You’ve given Spider-Man happiness, so there’s sort of nowhere to go.’ That’s why you get Mephisto and you get the reversal of the whole thing. I think Batman is the exact opposite.You give him happiness and you’re creating conflict. You’re not ending conflict, you’re creating something. You can’t go darker on Batman. Everything darker has been done….Batman has been as dark as he can be, but you give a character that dark, that painful, a touch of happiness, you’re adding fuel to a fire that’s never gotten fuel on it before. I think there’s a lot more story there.”


    Tom King author of Batman volume 3 #50

    ...

    I just wanted to do what I thought would be the first realistic superhero. Up until then, superheroes didn’t really have problems. They only had one problem, and that was how to beat up every villain…I told John [Romita] that I thought Peter should end up with Gwen…I thought she’d be the perfect wife for Peter…[When asked how he thinks Spider-Man has grown over the years] Oh terrifically! He started off as a shy teenager and now he’s a happily married man. He doesn’t have children yet but he may sometime down the line. He’s still got those two personalities. He’s Peter Parker and he’s Spider-Man and he still has a million problems which I think is very important to the strip. I think Peter Parker should always have problems I know I still have my share. Why should he be any different?
    Stan Lee, co-creator of Spider-Man.


    https://i.giphy.com/media/15BuyagtKucHm/giphy.webp

  2. #2
    iMan 42s
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    Spider-man getting married means that the thing is over and that there is nowhere to go?

    That.Is.Insane.

    No. Spider-man lost his marriage because someone in the company wanted books resembling what they enjoyed as opposed to something the audience could get behind. Never-mind if you like it or not, the decision wasn't made to escape creative bankruptcy, it was made for that. Do not insinuate that marriage is some sort of garden of Eden that comes with no problems. That's short sighted, grossly inaccurate, and on some level offensive. It's a big deal, but not one that results in complete and total happiness day in and day out. Especially considering the nature of superhero comics and how that might break the industry somehow if a character gets married. That is laughably stupid.

    We got Mephisto because Joe Quesada is a complete hack who wrote meandering trash for no other reason than to say the stories he grew up with are the things that the character must be for the foreseeable future. I know that sounds like a ton of complaints on the internet attached to "video-essays" which have characters with googly eyes on the thumbnail, but that is what happened. One More Day sucks for good reason, there is good reason why it's the epitome of dumb shit not worth the paper its printed on in modern comics.
    -----------------------------------
    For anyone that needs to know why OMD is awful please search the internet for Linkara' s video's specifically his One more day review or his One more day Analysis.

  3. #3

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    You might be overthinking the significance of an improvised comment in which he acknowledged an argument, but didn't endorse it.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  4. #4
    Mighty Member whiteshark's Avatar
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    I wonder where all this criticism about characters having to be married comes from
    When i started Reading comics as a kid i don´t remember going to the shop buy my comics and thinking on the way (Please let there be a weeding this month in the stories,please let there be a weeding)and crossing my fingers untill i reached the store.
    And ranting while talking to my friends about comics because there was not a single weeding in the comic books i bought.lol
    Same way now as a adult comic book reader.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    How come I can think of many interesting things to do with a married Spiderman or Batman (short term or long term, either option could work) but Tom King can't? I doubt I am more creative than him. Perhaps he is merely stubborn, set in his ways?
    "You'll never learn to fly now 'til you're standing at the cliff."

  6. #6
    Spider-Ninja
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    I wonder where all this criticism about characters having to be married comes from
    Probably from a bunch of married writers who think their lives ended with getting married and want to reflect themselves in the comics they write.

  7. #7
    Amazing Member Knightmare10880's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themasething View Post
    Probably from a bunch of married writers who think their lives ended with getting married and want to reflect themselves in the comics they write.
    I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks this and if it's true I feel very, very for these people and their spouses.

  8. #8
    Mighty Member whiteshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themasething View Post
    Probably from a bunch of married writers who think their lives ended with getting married and want to reflect themselves in the comics they write.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knightmare10880 View Post
    I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks this and if it's true I feel very, very for these people and their spouses.

  9. #9
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    A lot of what Brian Micheal Bendis has said about Lois and Clark's relationship in his run really makes me think he's about to take the concept of married superhero to a unique level. Check this interview out with him:

    Jon and Lois, though, were sent away in Man of Steel. Lois shows up already in Action #1001. She’s already back. And we’ve already hinted on the cover, that Jon comes back in just a couple issues. They’re not gone for the duration of my run or anything like that. They are gone, and Superman can feel how much he misses them and loves them and then they come back with a whole lot of story. Jon’s coming back saying “Oh my god, Grandpa’s crazy” and Lois has a lot going on with her too. So in the next few issues, right away, we’re not going to be throwing out the Superman family but reestablishing what that family unit means and how they interact with each other. And if I can overly answer the question, it’s a very special thing to me. I’m very engaged in Superman’s very special family and how they can love and relate to each other. It’s something that I think a lot of people in our own world can relate to, their special family they’ve created for themselves. We all have special family. And taking that idea into the future for Superman, it’s something that I am probably the most excited about.
    https://www.comicsbeat.com/interview...n-comics-1001/

    Wouldn't you love to see someone at Marvel say the same thing about any other couple or family besides Reed and Sue?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    I wonder where all this criticism about characters having to be married comes from
    When i started Reading comics as a kid i don´t remember going to the shop buy my comics and thinking on the way (Please let there be a weeding this month in the stories,please let there be a weeding)and crossing my fingers untill i reached the store.
    And ranting while talking to my friends about comics because there was not a single weeding in the comic books i bought.lol
    Same way now as a adult comic book reader.
    Marriage is a form of growth and progression and character development as most people in life get a long term life partner to share in their lives.

    Character development is good and 99% of the time key to good storytelling or at least a vital component to it.

    Character development was a foundation stone of the Marvel Universe which changed comic books forever to the point wherein DC reorientated their universe to better incorporate character development. Hence you got a Superman and Lois Lane who’s relationship actually developed instead of being stuck perennially in second gear. And you got a Batman who went through the loss of Jason Todd, decided to be alone, accepted Tim Drake and we saw Tim grow into a fully fledged partner.

    Also it wasn’t even exclusive to post-crisis DC. Wolfman’s Titans work saw characters grow and evolve and in a way Marston’s Wonder Woman did the same as the Baroness transitioned from a Nazi villainess into an Amazonian sister.

    People WANT growth and progression.

    Oversimplyfying things to a wedding specifically without looking at what they really want, growth, is misreading the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by themasething View Post
    Probably from a bunch of married writers who think their lives ended with getting married and want to reflect themselves in the comics they write.
    Yep.

    Coping with your midlife crises whilst vicariously living through your childhood hero is a powerful thing apparently.

    Hence Spider-Man can't be married to MJ because 'it's unrelatable to be married to a supermodel' but what he can do once his marriage is erased is have kinky no strings attached mask sex in hotel rooms he's illegally broken into whenever he wants from a platinum blonde haired nymphomaniac catburgler super villainess clad in skintight leather.



    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Right back at you buddy.

    Care to use you know...words to argue shit or do you want to keep posting memes in lieu of those things?


    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    A lot of what Brian Micheal Bendis has said about Lois and Clark's relationship in his run really makes me think he's about to take the concept of married superhero to a unique level. Check this interview out with him:



    https://www.comicsbeat.com/interview...n-comics-1001/

    Wouldn't you love to see someone at Marvel say the same thing about any other couple or family besides Reed and Sue?
    People forget this but family in a different way to the F4 is a key theme of Spider-Man too.

    Spider-Man is Spider-Man due to the death of and life lessons from his father.

    Spider-Man's biggest civilian life responsibility under Ditko's run was providing for his mother.

    J. Jonah Jameson in ASM #1 was seemingly crusading against Spider-Man because he felt the attention upon him detracted from his son.

    Norman Osborn was a major enemy to Spider-Man and being a father was critical to defining who he was.

    Harry Osborn was Peter's best friend defined in large part by his relationship with his Dad.

    MJ was a major love interest to Spider-Man introduced to us via her Aunt Anna, later we learn she's who she is due to an abusive father, witnessing her mother's life fall apart and breaking ties with her sister. And why? Because they got married and started families too soon.

    Flash Thompson we later learn is defined by his relationship with his alcoholic Dad.

    Joe and Randy Robertson are a thing, with Joe being a pseudo father/Uncle figure to Peter.

    Gwen and George Stacy.

    Hell Doc Ock's origin as later told is wrapped up in his parents, particularly his mother.

    Chameleon's origin is wrapped up in his brother Kraven and Kraven's Last Hunt reveals he is who he is because his family were purged in the Russian Revolution.

    Family, family, family, family.

    Why?

    Because family is a massive part of real life and a major responsibility we all deal with.

    Real life+Responsibility=the point of Spider-Man.

    So Spider-Man being a family man=totally applicable to Spider-Man and if you say otherwise you have lost the plot.

  11. #11
    Mighty Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    People forget this but family in a different way to the F4 is a key theme of Spider-Man too.

    Spider-Man is Spider-Man due to the death of and life lessons from his father.

    Spider-Man's biggest civilian life responsibility under Ditko's run was providing for his mother.

    J. Jonah Jameson in ASM #1 was seemingly crusading against Spider-Man because he felt the attention upon him detracted from his son.

    Norman Osborn was a major enemy to Spider-Man and being a father was critical to defining who he was.

    Harry Osborn was Peter's best friend defined in large part by his relationship with his Dad.

    MJ was a major love interest to Spider-Man introduced to us via her Aunt Anna, later we learn she's who she is due to an abusive father, witnessing her mother's life fall apart and breaking ties with her sister. And why? Because they got married and started families too soon.

    Flash Thompson we later learn is defined by his relationship with his alcoholic Dad.

    Joe and Randy Robertson are a thing, with Joe being a pseudo father/Uncle figure to Peter.

    Gwen and George Stacy.

    Hell Doc Ock's origin as later told is wrapped up in his parents, particularly his mother.

    Chameleon's origin is wrapped up in his brother Kraven and Kraven's Last Hunt reveals he is who he is because his family were purged in the Russian Revolution.

    Family, family, family, family.

    Why?

    Because family is a massive part of real life and a major responsibility we all deal with.

    Real life+Responsibility=the point of Spider-Man.

    So Spider-Man being a family man=totally applicable to Spider-Man and if you say otherwise you have lost the plot.
    ....Damn, that's excellent. I feel dumb with myself that I never realized just how connected that was until now.

    And that's not counting the characters who are defined by not necessarily family, but loved ones too.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  12. #12
    Mighty Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Any writer or creator who thinks that a character is limited due to having a family/marriage/kids, etc is a no talent and lazy hack.
    AKA= FlashFreak

    Favorite Characters:

    DC:
    The Flash (Jay, Wally, Barry), Hal Jordan,Ray Palmer, Jack Knight, Stargirl, Captain Marvel/Shazam! (Billy Batson), & Carter Hall.

    MARVEL:
    Daredevil, Spider-Man (Peter Parker), Iron Fist, & The Fantastic Four.


    Current Pulls:
    The Flash, Hawkman, Daredevil, Amazing Spider-Man, Venom, ASM Renew Your Vows, Marvel 2 in One, Immortal Hulk, and Fantastic Four.

  13. #13
    Tyrant Sun User leokearon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    Any writer or creator who thinks that a character is limited due to having a family/marriage/kids, etc is a no talent and lazy hack.
    Given the way they are running out of ideas, I agree
    Check out my Deviantart Page: http://leokearon.deviantart.com/

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  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    Any writer or creator who thinks that a character is limited due to having a family/marriage/kids, etc is a no talent and lazy hack.
    I think you're wrong on this in several levels.

    There are places where reasonable people can disagree, but your stated view is that to hold a particular position requires major character flaws.

    I'd argue that the character will be limited due to family/ marriage/ kids in that this balance becomes a permanent part of the series, and that there are stories that shouldn't be told (if Peter Parker is married to Mary Jane, he shouldn't be sleeping with the Black Cat.) The question isn't whether this is a limitation, but whether the tradeoffs are worthwhile.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  15. #15
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Its true. Marriage brings no conflict whatsoever. Once you get married, everything is happy rainbow unicorn poop from there on out. No problems come up whatsoever.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

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