Red Hood and the Outlaws #24 Preview / Discussion (Spoilers)

[Zaresh]

I like the detailed analysis. Especially the part where the author points out



Concerning Penguin's involvement in his father's fate there was no one Jason could have talked to:

-) Bizarro was in a critical condition and even if he was fine I don't think Jason would have gone to Bizarro with his thoughts about wanting to kill the Penguin for what he did. In issue 7 Bizarro said "But Red Him show me how and me [Bizarro] promise to be the best Bizarro me can be." Jason knows that he is a role model for Bizarro and does probably not want to disappoint Bizarro.
-) Artemis was away to that time (meeting Lex Luthor) and was already worried about Bizarro. I don't think Jason wanted to take any attention away, especially since Bizarro had already nearly died in the past.
-) Jason hasn't even talked to Roy or Kori in Rebirth and only knows from Killercroc that Roy isn't in a perfect happy state either. Again: Jason does not want to be an additional burden on another person.
-) Forget the batfamily. I think Jason would fear that they would be more concerned about Penguin's life then helping Jason through this chaos of dark thoughts and emotions. Which is a little bit ironic. Compare this to the rebirth issue when Jason asked Bruce why he didn't just trust him. For me, the real question is: Does Jason trust Bruce? Does Jason trust Bruce to save him when he is in danger, even if the enemy is Jason himself? I don't think so.

In issue 10 when Jason hallucinated about the Joker and his younger self in the warehouse he says to Robin Jason "But things are different now. Roy. Kori. Artemis. Bizarro. When I was your age I never let anyone in. I thought I could do everything alone."

So in theory Jason knows that he should talk with people about his problems but as the article says



I don't know if Jason chooses to actively avoid contact with his teammates in the end when Artemis can't reach him or if this was due to the fail-save-protocols of the headquarters. I suspect the second. Although it's sad that Jason is always alone in his darkest moments. Even Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne had moments when they tried to kill someone. But there was always someone to stop them in the last second.

Confronting Penguin was not a spur of the moment. There was at least some planing and little bit of waiting involved. As the issue shows there was a bomb planted at that opening event Penguin attended. Jason had probably done this the night before. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread Jason is unshaved (and has probably not been sleeping since he found the empty coffin). I wondered why Jason would try to kill Penguin live on TV. There had to be some purpose because Jason would have found easy ways to kill Penguin secretly. First I thought this should be a warning to other villains to start pissing their pants because Red Hood is going back to his roots. But now I believe this was meant as a farewell to Bruce and the rest of the batfamily. Jason's plan probably was to use the headquarters to flee Gotham together with Artemis and Bizarro so he doesn't have to face Batman face-to-face.

Maybe it was also subconsciously meant as some cry for help. But I don't think Batman is "helping" in the next issue. But since Roy has an appearance in the annual he probably saw the news.

Yeah, great analysis, @Sergard. I, too, wish there was some kind of giving such good contributions a way of acknowledging. I guess quoting is the best we can do.

Even so Penguin now knows who RH is and it could, theoretically, mean that Jason has just outed the entire family to him. If he survives and remembers it could pose a threat to the others. I don't think that under normal circumstances that Jason would intentionally endanger the others. That could also be the mistake he's referring to.

Penguin will have some kind of short term amnesia, probably. It's not really unbelievable.

[G-Potion]

Even so Penguin now knows who RH is and it could, theoretically, mean that Jason has just outed the entire family to him. If he survives and remembers it could pose a threat to the others. I don't think that under normal circumstances that Jason would intentionally endanger the others. That could also be the mistake he's referring to.

Yeah because he didn't intend for Penguin to get out alive to tell anyone in the first place, and this is very personal so Jason might have felt the need to discard the hood for a bit. By having Penguin state the risk of what Jason's done though, I think Lobdell is prepared to take care of this problem in case Penguin has to stay alive.

[G-Potion]

Confronting Penguin was not a spur of the moment. There was at least some planing and little bit of waiting involved. As the issue shows there was a bomb planted at that opening event Penguin attended. Jason had probably done this the night before. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread Jason is unshaved (and has probably not been sleeping since he found the empty coffin). I wondered why Jason would try to kill Penguin live on TV. There had to be some purpose because Jason would have found easy ways to kill Penguin secretly. First I thought this should be a warning to other villains to start pissing their pants because Red Hood is going back to his roots. But now I believe this was meant as a farewell to Bruce and the rest of the batfamily. Jason's plan probably was to use the headquarters to flee Gotham together with Artemis and Bizarro so he doesn't have to face Batman face-to-face.

Maybe it was also subconsciously meant as some cry for help. But I don't think Batman is "helping" in the next issue. But since Roy has an appearance in the annual he probably saw the news.

Great writeup @Sergard, and I really like this part especially. It might as well be true because Jason pretty much resigned himself to be a damned prince of Gotham right there and then. He knows that it's over for him, what could have been.

[Arsenal]

Quick round of applause for Roy showing he's a real friend for taking care of his bro in a time of need.


Only if a certain billionaire with a bat fetish could learn to do the same.

[JasonTodd428]

Penguin will have some kind of short term amnesia, probably. It's not really unbelievable.

Probably that or something similar because I doubt any other writer would even pick up that thread anyway and I can't see the Bat office allowing Penguin to actually be dead. That why I was saying 'theoretically'. That said I still felt something about Jason's actions were a bit off. It could be the emotional baggage he's dealing that is making me feel that way I suppose.

[magpieM]

Well I do like those interpretations, but some of the details began to contradict each other. I see that why he had to kill penguin first. By declaring he is his father's son, he's embracing his original family. He even revealed his identity before shooting penguin, indicating he was really determined to kill him right at the scene. There's no turning back in his plan. And his action was premeditated because he set up the bombs before the event, which means he knew it was a public event and there would be audience and media at the scene.

But he suddenly changed his mind not to kill penguin at the last moment before pulling the trigger? He suddenly recalled that oops I'm on camera I can't let the Bats see me? Or he suddenly recalled that I need to be a good example for Bizarro? They don't make sense. I think he thought he messed up because he had ignored Bizarro after he read the letters and he wasn't there when things had gone wrong in the headquarters.

So if penguin survived after being shot at the point-blank range in the head by Red Hood, who clearly knows how to use a handgun, there need to be more explanation...

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

People can rationalize as they want but the matter of the fact is that Jason attacking of the Penguin was about moving the story in a specific way to the detriment of the actual development seen through the past 23 issues (and the previous) series. Lobdell is a skilled writer enough to give the audience enough enjoyable elements for them to overlook the overall sloppiness of the scene.

[magpieM]

People can rationalize as they want but the matter of the fact is that Jason attacking of the Penguin was about moving the story in a specific way to the detriment of the actual development seen through the past 23 issues (and the previous) series. Lobdell is a skilled writer enough to give the audience enough enjoyable elements for them to overlook the overall sloppiness of the scene.

Thank you for letting me realize that my thoughts about the story were bullshit and that my enjoyment of rationalizing Lobdell's writing for RHATO was wasting my time. I didn't know that the sloppiness was always supposed to be part of the reading experience. I doubt if it is what Lobdell really meant to be, or just some of his online 'spokemen' trying to teach people how to read.

[Zaresh]

No need to be sarcastic or defensive, hey. Dark was just pointing out that there is probably a reason for contradictory behaviour between previous issues and last. Besides, it's a matter of how each one take on the whole scene. For me, Jason meant to kill Penguin until the end. But he realized just to which point he drove himself by his blinding emotions afterwards, and how much he messed up. Maybe because I can relate to that.

Let's chill and discuss as friends.

[JasonTodd428]

Well I do like those interpretations, but some of the details began to contradict each other. I see that why he had to kill penguin first. By declaring he is his father's son, he's embracing his original family. He even revealed his identity before shooting penguin, indicating he was really determined to kill him right at the scene. There's no turning back in his plan. And his action was premeditated because he set up the bombs before the event, which means he knew it was a public event and there would be audience and media at the scene.

But he suddenly changed his mind not to kill penguin at the last moment before pulling the trigger? He suddenly recalled that oops I'm on camera I can't let the Bats see me? Or he suddenly recalled that I need to be a good example for Bizarro? They don't make sense. I think he thought he messed up because he had ignored Bizarro after he read the letters and he wasn't there when things had gone wrong in the headquarters.

So if penguin survived after being shot at the point-blank range in the head by Red Hood, who clearly knows how to use a handgun, there need to be more explanation...

1. Honestly I think there are multiple reasons that he might feel he made a mistake here. I'm not saying that he feels that he made a mistake in shooting Penguin because he clearly felt he had justification to do so. I just think that his saying he made a mistake could be read in several different ways and that he could also have several reasons for saying so including the one you mention. Also I just personally felt that something was off, not with Jason wanting to take out Penguin, but with the way he went about it. If Solitary isn't Willis Todd (and granted that's HUGE if) then its distinctly possible he's been manipulating everything in order to put Jason in this position were he's leaning more toward his biological father than toward his adoptive one. We actually know very little about his power set so perhaps he can cause people to see illusions or some such. We'll have to see how this all resolves.

2. As for Penguin surviving, its inevitable. I really don't see the Bat office allowing him to be dead permanently. Heck, they had Black Mask running around in a different book as if nothing had happened to him even though he was basically made into a vegetable earlier in this same run. Penguin will very likely be in critical condition for a bit, then in a coma and then he turn up in some Bat title down the line. They simply aren't going to keep him in this state and I doubt we'll even get an explanation either unless Lobdell provides one. No one bothered to explain why Black Mask was whole again either. I don't like it either but it is what it is and it doesn't really change the intent behind the action a bit even if he does survive.

[JasonTodd428]

No need to be sarcastic or defensive, hey. Dark was just pointing out that there is probably a reason for contradictory behaviour between previous issues and last. Besides, it's a matter of how each one take on the whole scene. For me, Jason meant to kill Penguin until the end. But he realized just to which point he drove himself by his blinding emotions afterwards, and how much he messed up. Maybe because I can relate to that.

Let's chill and discuss as friends.

Yeah, I agree with you that it is possible that Jason changed his mind at the last minute and that's why Penguin isn't dead outright. There is a previous instance of him doing something similar. Back in UTRH Jason had put a bomb on the Batmobile intending to blow Batman sky high but then he couldn't go through with it. He may have told Talia that he didn't do it because he wanted Batman to know who killed him but I also thought that he might have has second thoughts about killing Bruce. Later on in the story Bruce and Jason are face to face at last and yet he still doesn't even attempt to kill him when he could have until Bruce refuses to shoot the Joker.

[JasonTodd428]

People can rationalize as they want but the matter of the fact is that Jason attacking of the Penguin was about moving the story in a specific way to the detriment of the actual development seen through the past 23 issues (and the previous) series. Lobdell is a skilled writer enough to give the audience enough enjoyable elements for them to overlook the overall sloppiness of the scene.

Honestly, I didn't really find that scene sloppy at all though I did feel like something was off with the way Jason went about this. I didn't feel this was up to his usual standards at all. That's not necessarily indicative of sloppiness in the writer's craft but more so of Jason's mental state at the moment which is, in all honesty, a complete mess right now. Whether this turn of events is ultimately detrimental to Jason's character and his development up to this point by Lobdell we'll have to wait and see. At the moment I'm going to give the direction the benefit of a doubt although I remain concerned about it.

[G-Potion]

No need to be sarcastic or defensive, hey. Dark was just pointing out that there is probably a reason for contradictory behaviour between previous issues and last. Besides, it's a matter of how each one take on the whole scene. For me, Jason meant to kill Penguin until the end. But he realized just to which point he drove himself by his blinding emotions afterwards, and how much he messed up. Maybe because I can relate to that.

Let's chill and discuss as friends.

This is what I feel as well. Red Hood will kill when there's no alternative, but in this instance it's pretty much driven by rage and grief. Jason knows that he damned himself by letting this happen. And his argument for Red Hood's method is less strong because of it. And honestly, this is something he has to go through at some point, make a mistake, blinded by emotion, be in the wrong etc etc. Pretty early on since Rebirth I said the same thing, so to me this is a natural progression and I don't feel any big contradictions myself.

[magpieM]

No need to be sarcastic or defensive, hey. Dark was just pointing out that there is probably a reason for contradictory behaviour between previous issues and last. Besides, it's a matter of how each one take on the whole scene. For me, Jason meant to kill Penguin until the end. But he realized just to which point he drove himself by his blinding emotions afterwards, and how much he messed up. Maybe because I can relate to that.

Let's chill and discuss as friends.

I just have a feeling that Dark thinks that I'm attacking Lobdell and that he feels the need to defend him (like a spokeman). Hell no! This issue is way beyond my expectations and right now, I care about Jason more than ever because of Lobdell's writing. I was commenting on the recent comments and thoughts. They are all golds because now RHATO story is experiencing some critical changes. But there are inconsistencies between different interpretations so I want to point out. If I really dislike Lobdell's writing or editor's decisions, I would name names directly in my post.

[G-Potion]

True. It's a good thing when the writing allows for various interpretations and a good round of discussion. On this board RHATO is one of the few books that manages to do so almost every issue.