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  1. #91
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalsrix View Post
    I agree with you.

    There are just too many X-books around and it's confusing in terms of continuity.
    One X-writer doesn't know what the other is writing.

    I would think there are only 4 X-teams.

    X-Men Gold
    X-Men Blue
    X-Men Red
    Astonishing X-Men (I hope they can rename this to X-Men 'color' to be more consistent with the rest).

    New Mutants dead souls is really just a very short mini and will be forgotten quickly after its finale.
    Since Gold and Blue are ending in September, it's actually Red that needs renaming.

  2. #92
    My Mutant Muses TRIFECTA! Heroine Addict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coin Biter View Post
    I said that it might be different, not that it would be There are two points that I'd make:

    1. Your original statement that there is a decline in attention span. That is not something that is possible to judge by book, comics and periodical sales in any event, because people are consuming entertainment in all kinds of different forms. So I'd question whether evidence for such a statement could be anything other than anecdotal to begin with. So I'll introduce another anecdote Television drama, in particular, has featured an unprecedented quantity of demanding drama series over the last 20 years - certainly a greater number than in my childhood, where the more demanding dramas in the UK (such as Edge of Darkness, or literary adaptations, such as A Jewel in the Crown) were spoken of in hushed tones.

    I don't, in short, believe that people are rejecting comic books because they lack the attention span to appreciate them.

    2. There are particular reasons why comic books are suffering significantly, even in comparison to other written material. What, after all, were AvX, or Civil War 2, or Battle of the Atom, or the "marriage" of Kitty and Colossus, or any other of the events or mini-events or crossovers, other than to attempt to maximise sales among the currently existing readership? Comic books are facing a greater challenge than many other forms of entertainment because while the skill of the talent may be considerable, the superhero genre itself is stale, the outlets of distribution are consciously limited, the sales techniques are geared towards current readers buying multiple periodicals, and the fictional universes set a higher entry for the new reader than you'd find in the works of George Eliot. I honestly don't think this is that controversial.

    But whether it's possible to expand the interest in the genre to new readers while not losing existing ones... why, there's the question.
    That you did, so touchť.

    1. Perhaps shortened attention spans was the wrong choice of words, and too general. I believe that due to the acceleration of digital technology over the last two decades, people are far less inclined to want to put forth the time & effort involved, with acquiring & absorbing comics, periodicals, and yes, even books. Now more than ever, interest is fleeting, and novelty wears off just that much quicker. I never said complexity was the problem, as I think it's more about changing consumer habits. They want it all, and they want it now. Nobody wants to wait, and they're always ready to move on to the next big thing. Boredom sets in far faster, than it used to.

    In short, written works - even those with accompanying, pretty pictures - just can't compete anymore, in today's market. As they lack the necessary stimuli, potential buyers have grown increasingly accustomed to, that'll attract & hold their... attention.

    I do think there might be something that can help, though, and it may be just around the corner. To sum it up in a single word, interactivity.

    2. Emphatically agree with the first, but not necessarily the second, so much. Not sure content's the issue, as much as the format is. Superhero movies, serialized shows, and video games, are all at the height of popularity, for the most part. Why is there no carryover?

    On the third, honestly... don't think it's even possible, to any significant degree, as is. I say, just enjoy it while it lasts, 'cause their days are numbered.
    Last edited by Heroine Addict; 07-10-2018 at 02:45 PM.
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  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by DearMachine View Post
    This is a valid point. The New 52 did simplify continuity a lot, and restore some characters to more classic states. I was sad about the Batgirls and Oracle.

    Even so, I sometimes wonder if X-Men would benefit from a very soft reset. I'm not proposing washing away continuity or eliminating characters, but rather writing stories that maybe rely less on knowing a character's history, and focus more on the core of who the X-Men are (what Westworld would call their keystones). I'll give you an example. X-Men Gold #31 relies heavily on the reader's knowledge of history. Unless you know about Rachel as a hound and, to a lesser degree, the rest of Days of Future Past, the story is opaque. It also does a cheap trick, where it pretends at first to be from Kitty's perspective, but is really Rachel's delusion. Compare that to Iceman, where it touches lightly on aspects of Bobby's history but doesn't rely on them and tells you everything you need to know about him to follow the story.

    I know the obvious counterargument is that Gold is outselling the rest of the books, but I don't think it would do worse with a more new reader friendly approach that still respected history.



    Yeah, but I don't think those 7 million copies were a sign of much more than the rampant speculation in the 90s. I'm sure some collectors picked up hoarder-level numbers of all five covers in the hopes that they would get rich off them in the future. There is probably some dude with a thousand copies in his attic, mournfully regretting his choices.

    I don't know I always thought or at least the last decade, it isn't the history that bogs stories down it's the lack of interconnectivity. Nothing matter any more not even in the context of the stories, to the characters, or their development.

    With each new writer or relaunch all the characters are rebooted essentially anyways, more often than not none of the consequences of the story prior to the current will matter. It's why so many characters are written wildly different between issues. I personally never bought the idea that continuity constrains writers creativity.

    Why would any reader care about the character if their not based on their personal experiences, interactions, or relationships. And while in the last few years Marvel has gone on record as saying they don't wanna tie writers to huge decades worth of continuity. Even when they supposed were monthly we'd see writers, and editors ignore or cherrypicking things they prefer about a character.

    I feel like what Marvel and DC should have been doing is honoring and celebrating these massive and complex histories they've created instead of downplaying them or throwing them away, many of us grew up with these characters.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    I don't know I always thought or at least the last decade, it isn't the history that bogs stories down it's the lack of interconnectivity. Nothing matter any more not even in the context of the stories, to the characters, or their development.

    With each new writer or relaunch all the characters are rebooted essentially anyways, more often than not none of the consequences of the story prior to the current will matter. It's why so many characters are written wildly different between issues. I personally never bought the idea that continuity constrains writers creativity.

    Why would any reader care about the character if their not based on their personal experiences, interactions, or relationships. And while in the last few years Marvel has gone on record as saying they don't wanna tie writers to huge decades worth of continuity. Even when they supposed were monthly we'd see writers, and editors ignore or cherrypicking things they prefer about a character.

    I feel like what Marvel and DC should have been doing is honoring and celebrating these massive and complex histories they've created instead of downplaying them or throwing them away, many of us grew up with these characters.
    So much this. Itís absurd they have these characters with decades of past experiences and yet most of it is ignored. Up to and including characters entire personality varying by the writer. (Iím looking at you, kitty in space)

    They make no attempt to help anyone follow their favorite characters through the many book renames and relaunches and writers will ignore the ending of the prior plot without considering any consequences that might have resulted from it. Essentially Marvel has been producing a bunch of fan fiction-tier plots and writing that literally read like youíre going from one story to another. It discourages older fans from being able to get caught up with what they missed (when the spoiler is that you didnít really miss anything, but good luck getting them to trash their own past writers and storyís that way), so they donít know where to jump back in and just get discouraged. Similarly, new people donít know how to read up on the pasta of the characters they might find they enjoy, save googling their name and looking up their summary on a wiki.. which does nothing to get marvel any income, but itís the best bet for a reader.

    Honestly, I donít know how this isnít a higher priority for them.

  5. #95
    Ultimate Member Ambaryerno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anchorsify View Post
    So much this. It’s absurd they have these characters with decades of past experiences and yet most of it is ignored. Up to and including characters entire personality varying by the writer. (I’m looking at you, kitty in space)

    They make no attempt to help anyone follow their favorite characters through the many book renames and relaunches and writers will ignore the ending of the prior plot without considering any consequences that might have resulted from it.
    This. SO much this. It can be very hard to follow characters when different writers present them as completely different people. Marvel may talk about continuity being a barrier to entry, or make pithy remarks about it getting in the way of storytelling, but it's confusing and disorienting for the same characters to be written with completely different personalities between books, and for developments in one book to not be acknowledged in another. To say nothing of not even knowing where one book fits in the the TIMELINE in relation to another.

    Hell, we may be even entering a situation where one character is using ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CODENAMES between books.
    Still hoping for that Helix Reunion...

    Oh look, it's Friday, time to dump on the New X-Men. :-P


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  6. #96
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambaryerno View Post
    This. SO much this. It can be very hard to follow characters when different writers present them as completely different people. Marvel may talk about continuity being a barrier to entry, or make pithy remarks about it getting in the way of storytelling, but it's confusing and disorienting for the same characters to be written with completely different personalities between books, and for developments in one book to not be acknowledged in another. To say nothing of not even knowing where one book fits in the the TIMELINE in relation to another.

    Hell, we may be even entering a situation where one character is using ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CODENAMES between books.
    Yeah. But according to officials at Marvel, we're just a difficult fanbase. It can't possibly be that they're just not making an effort to do their job and write stories with some depth, direction, actual continuity, and repercussions.

    Look at Daken & Creed. They'll be heroes in one book, and villains in another one. Which is it? Stop bouncing back & forth whenever it's convenient.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 07-11-2018 at 05:37 AM.

  7. #97
    Fantastic Member Hellinoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Since Gold and Blue are ending in September, it's actually Red that needs renaming.
    That's why it's so hard to care... Nothings sticks that long nowadays...
    Ending Uncanny the first time was the first sign of that. With those - almost - seasonal books Marvel publish.

    Everything feels more gimmicks and marketing than substance. But I don't blame Marvel about this... As a publisher I wouldn't know what to do.
    - I love Wolverine. Really.
    - Yeah ? Which one ?

  8. #98
    Extraordinary Member Purplevit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellinoze View Post
    That's why it's so hard to care... Nothings sticks that long nowadays...
    Ending Uncanny the first time was the first sign of that. With those - almost - seasonal books Marvel publish.

    Everything feels more gimmicks and marketing than substance. But I don't blame Marvel about this... As a publisher I wouldn't know what to do.
    36 issues for Blue and Gold is a fine runs to me and it is more then enough of time to tell a good story.

    I think with Cebulski and White ongoings will live longer.

  9. #99
    Extraordinary Member Master of Sound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambaryerno View Post
    Betcha there's a TON of Gold #30 sitting on the shelves leftover after all the limited variants.
    Berging not since the 2bd and 3rd printings are made.
    Stop complaining and start dancing

  10. #100
    Poor Hacked Diamond Lil Nevets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ButterRum View Post


    But .... do you have a source for that? That's a crazy number ...

    Anyways these figures can't be surprising for Marvel considering they shafted the franchise in favor of the Avengers.
    Quote Originally Posted by jpmst17 View Post
    sure. according to this site i was off by 6 million copies.

    https://www.zapkapowcomics.com/top-1...ng-comic-books
    It was actually over 8.1 million copies. This is the breakdown:

    Cover 1A: 1,555,000
    Cover 1B: 1,782,500
    Cover 1C: 1,480,000
    Cover 1D: 1,414,900
    Cover 1E: 1,954,100

    Total: 8,186,500

    Source: http://www.comichron.com/faq/alltime...comicbook.html

  11. #101

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    It was a different time, then. Spider-Man and X-Force's new number 1's did great too, but Claremont and Lee was a dream team not to be stopped. Can anyone find the numbers for Uncanny just before the launch of X-Men #1? I think they were moving in the hundreds of thousands of copies on the regular back then.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  12. #102
    Astonishing Member wano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    It was a different time, then. Spider-Man and X-Force's new number 1's did great too, but Claremont and Lee was a dream team not to be stopped. Can anyone find the numbers for Uncanny just before the launch of X-Men #1? I think they were moving in the hundreds of thousands of copies on the regular back then.
    they sold the fantasy that those cover were going to be valuable one day, aka speculation, but I won't deny it's one of the best comics ever written

  13. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by wano View Post
    they sold the fantasy that those cover were going to be valuable one day, aka speculation, but I won't deny it's one of the best comics ever written
    I mean, that type of speculation also fueled the numbers for other books of that time, but X-Men still was the winner by far!
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

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