Who is the top Telepath? the best telepath there is in the X-books?

[butterflykyss]

Thanks for providing these scans since I did not read the issue. Xavier clearly did not catch Jeen and the rest of the O5 by surprise with his mindwipe. He told them beforehand what he was going to do and Jean even had time to reply.

Xavier: "Come tomorrow, you'll have moved on and I won't even be a distant memory." <----So, Xavier was letting them know he was about to mindwipe them.

Jean: "So, that's it?...etc.etc.etc."

Xavier: "...I always held out..."

Mindwipe.

Nope, nobody was caught by surprise here. They had forewaring and everything.

exactly right rut. jean got put in her place and no one should be surprised. this is Xavier the most powerful telepath on the planet. these types of things is what should be expected.

[LordAllMIghty]

oh good observation lololol....
I think it was an impressive showing for x and reminder to not f@ck with him.

One of the reasons I really wanna see a limited series starring X.

[DDM]

1) Why do you deny what happened on panel in the Emma vs. Rachel fight?

Rachel came at Emma full-on with a serious attack right here:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/cAIXHeLYmb...sxym5Pnv=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/uGjEOUbui4...3vcU6BDt=s1600

Emma was the master teacher giving a lecture to a simpleton student. Look at what she's saying to Rachel and how casually she disarms her and deconstructs her psi-armor. Emma is not breaking a sweat here. She's not making any real effort while Rachel is doing all she can to try and win this psi-fight.

Then, upon failing in this regard, Rachel tries to go at Emma psychologically only to lose in that arena as well:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/gdhk9kam2_...FvnkwE9V=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/IBV_PNFog7...0dCnPDLS=s1600

Then, after all of that, Emma says Rachel is not her equal as a telepath:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/9HTIh89OXY...jMSgPNqs=s1600

Rachel was ouclassed in every way BIG time in this fight. This would also explain why Exodus could do nothing else when he fought Emma telepathically as all his focus had to be directed to her when she was his psychic opponent while he could fight like 5 other X-Men at the same time he battled Rachel telepathically.

Emma is leagues above Rachel.

But I’m not denying anything. Look at your own pages, Emma was overconfident and boastful and looked foolish when none of her direct attacks worked. She couldn’t outmuscle Rachel, she couldn’t even land a solid hit after her initial suckerpunch, everything was countered, so she had to move to a different approach. Rachel matched Emma in literally every way EXCEPT in emotional cheap shots.

Exodus is incredibly powerful, he took on multiple X-Men and Avengers and Jean AND Xavier simultaneously. He’s also portrayed incredibly inconsistently though, such as when Emma was able to take his full concentration, which is I believe the only time we’ve seen that happen with Exodus. And even then she couldn’t defeat him psychically, Dust had to do it physically.

Emma wasn't going all out with her powers when she chained Rachel up. Hence, Rachel said after she broke free, "Let's do this for real," as she manifested her psi-weapons and psi-armor.

When Emma stripped away her weapons and psi-armor, she could have gone for the kill at that point, but opted not to. Heck, she stole Rachel's own psi weapons away from her.

I love how the fight started, though. I love how Emma socked her in the face on the Astral Plane and then told her she needs to teach her some manners:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ofCHwp06em...KpTburhT=s1600

This was not a fight at all. This was Rachel biting off far more than she could chew in challenging Emma, and the White Queen going easy on Rachel just to illustrate how Rachel is not her equal.

That was parody on my part. I wanted to show you how ridiculous you sound.

As far as when Rachel said it’s not a “game” and they should do this “for real”, Emma replied “can’t it be both?”. That implies she was already fighting hard and not holding back.

If Emma had “gone for the kill” as you say Rachel would’ve countered it. Like she countered all her other direct attacks. It’s probably time for you to pull an Emma here and switch tactics, you’re getting countered pretty hard yourself.

I was going to ignore the rest of this post since I have already addressed most of these points in my earlier rebuttals to you, but I will make a few comments.

The first paragraph I have already addressed and debunked in my other responses to you. No need to say anything there. I've already proven the whole unlimited power concept with the two Grey women telepaths being connected to the whole Phoenix thing and I provided scans and issues to back it up like the Selene vs. Rachel images from Uncanny X-Men #207.

Regarding your second paragraph, as I've stated, only a few people outside of the Grey line were able to host the PF for years which put them in a special class for being able to house the comic bird. Furthermore, Stryfe, X-Man, and Cable without the techno virus are more powerful than non-Phoenix Force Jean and this has been consistently established throughout canon. In other words, Sinister has been proven right in his estimations regarding the progeny of Cyclops and Jean Grey being more powerful than either parent. He did not make a mistake in this assumption.

You’ve debunked nothing and your Selene scan is irrelevant. Rachel’s limitless potential was confirmed AFTER she already seperated from the Phoenix in the 2000s and again recently in Gold. Likewise Jean’s Omega status was confirmed in the 90s when she was entirely separated from the Phoenix and it was already considered an external cosmic entity. Anyone with even a basic grasp of continuity can see your little theory here is too full of holes to take seriously.

And the fact you’re floating this “made up” theory isn’t lost on me. It’s nowhere in any comic and so by your own previous debate standard last page, it’s not canon. It’s just made up.

[butterflykyss]

One of the reasons I really wanna see a limited series starring X.

I could get behind this book.... Xavier seems very dark now. it kinda reminds me of ororo when she got back from space and went punk.

[Strong Girl Daken]

exactly right rut. jean got put in her place and no one should be surprised. this is Xavier the most powerful telepath on the planet. these types of things is what should be expected.

Ew. Are you happy that Jean "got put in her place" by the X-men's patriarch? Gotta keep those omega level mutant women in their place.

[butterflykyss]

Ew. Are you happy that Jean "got put in her place" by the X-men's patriarch? Gotta keep those omega level mutant women in their place.

no not happy but I think powerwise jean is over hyped. many of her big feats occurred when she had Phoenix. so some fans being outraged that a character who has always been described as the world most powerful telepath mind wiping her just seems really silly considering she doesnt have Phoenix anymore. has nothing to do with gender beloved.

[rutog98]

But I’m not denying anything. Look at your own pages, Emma was overconfident and boastful and looked foolish when none of her direct attacks worked. She couldn’t outmuscle Rachel, she couldn’t even land a solid hit after her initial suckerpunch, everything was countered, so she had to move to a different approach. Rachel matched Emma in literally every way EXCEPT in emotional cheap shots.

Exodus is incredibly powerful, he took on multiple X-Men and Avengers and Jean AND Xavier simultaneously. He’s also portrayed incredibly inconsistently though, such as when Emma was able to take his full concentration, which is I believe the only time we’ve seen that happen with Exodus. And even then she couldn’t defeat him psychically, Dust had to do it physically.


That was parody on my part. I wanted to show you how ridiculous you sound.

As far as when Rachel said it’s not a “game” and they should do this “for real”, Emma replied “can’t it be both?”. That implies she was already fighting hard and not holding back.

If Emma had “gone for the kill” as you say Rachel would’ve countered it. Like she countered all her other direct attacks. It’s probably time for you to pull an Emma here and switch tactics, you’re getting countered pretty hard yourself.


You’ve debunked nothing and your Selene scan is irrelevant. Rachel’s limitless potential was confirmed AFTER she already seperated from the Phoenix in the 2000s and again recently in Gold. Likewise Jean’s Omega status was confirmed in the 90s when she was entirely separated from the Phoenix and it was already considered an external cosmic entity. Anyone with even a basic grasp of continuity can see your little theory here is too full of holes to take seriously.

And the fact you’re floating this “made up” theory isn’t lost on me. It’s nowhere in any comic and so by your own previous debate standard last page, it’s not canon. It’s just made up.

1) Emma totally held back. When she stripped Rachel of her psi-weapons, knocked her to the ground, and deconstructed her armor, she could have gone for the kill right there, but instead, she elected to allow Rachel to recover and come at her again. Emma's goal in this encounter was not to destroy Rachel, however, Rachel's aim was to annihilate Emma. The White Queen was only seeking to make a point. That's all, and she was entirely successful in this endeavor despite Rachel going all out.

2) Exodus NEVER took on multiple X-Men and Avengers alongside Xavier in Bloodties. All Xavier did to him in that story was distract him with a mindblast so that Black Knight could chop him down with his energy sword...and it worked. Bloodties clearly stated in plain English that Xavier was a more powerful psi than Exodus, so stop making stuff up that didn't happen.

3) The issue didn't say that Emma could not defeat Exodus. Dust intervened before that contest could be settled. That said, in a future story, Emma, who was sitting on a couch on the opposite end of the world, was able to block the combined psi-power of Exodus and Sinister. So, it's really Emma>>Exodus>>>>>Rachel.

4) When the Phoenix Force was established as being separate from the Grey telepaths, it was likened to Excalibur. In other words, it was destined for those telepaths to wield it just like it was for King Arthur to wield the sword, Excalibur. Okay? So, again, Rachel's full potential was to be able to serve as host to the Phoenix Force. I have already explained this at length in my other posts and I will not repost that information again.

5) I think that some writers are still holding onto the whole unlimited power thing with Jean and Rachel for nostalgic puposes, really. However, Jean's conversation with the Phoenix Force settles the arguement, eventhough it is a conclusion you don't like.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qyBeYc08A...600/RCO026.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UDz88yMgH...600/RCO027.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VK1Crs15K...600/RCO028.jpg

This blows a big hole in your whole agument. Read the conversation.

The Selene vs. Phoenix Rachel fight has Selene identifying the whole Phoenix powers as Rachel's full potential. This is the way it was for Jean as well. It was a bloodline inheritance. However, later, they removed it from being an internal aspect of the characters to an external entity they were destined to host. In other words, they don't have that power level on their own as clearly shown in the discussion with Jean and the Phoenix Force in the scans above. Come on, man, accept the facts. I'm through going over this with you now. If you want to continue this discussion, maybe somebody else can try and explain to you another way.

[rutog98]

Ew. Are you happy that Jean "got put in her place" by the X-men's patriarch? Gotta keep those omega level mutant women in their place.

Yeah, Butterflykyss is so prejudiced against women that Storm is his favorite character...

People really should stop trying to throw around these kinds of comments you are accusing him of so freely. There are true misogynists out there, but when the label is misapplied, it loses its oomph.

[butterflykyss]

Yeah, Butterflykyss is so prejudiced against women that Storm is his favorite character...

People really should stop trying to throw around these kinds of comments you are accusing him of so freely. There are true misogynists out there, but when the label is misapplied, it loses its oomph.

thank you rut. beautifully said. I didnt even want to state the obvious but I'm so happy you did.

[ExodusCloak]

Completely forgot about Wells Emma

3) The issue didn't say that Emma could not defeat Exodus. Dust intervened before that contest could be settled. That said, in a future story, Emma, who was sitting on a couch on the opposite end of the world, was able to block the combined psi-power of Exodus and Sinister. So, it's really Emma>>Exodus>>>>>Rachel.

Blocked Lady Mastermind too she was there and could only use her powers when Pixie distracted Emma

Another reader -- "Magneto," no less -- was rubbed the wrong way by a current event as well, and is seeking some clarification. "Exodus seemed so weak in 'Uncanny' #205. Nightcrawler got rid of him easy. Shouldn't someone as powerful as Exodus be more of a challenge?"

Carey: It was meant to be a take-out play, removing him from the battle before he had a chance to bring his powers to bear. Yeah, you're right. Exodus is one of the mutants Sinister had in mind when he said that some of his team could take out the X-Men single-handed. But remember that Kurt is psi-shielded by Emma, so Exodus's first instinct -- to fry his brains inside his skull -- wouldn't work. By the time he starts to go for Plan B, he's miles away."

[DDM]

1) Emma totally held back. When she stripped Rachel of her psi-weapons, knocked her to the ground, and deconstructed her armor, she could have gone for the kill right there, but instead, she elected to allow Rachel to recover and come at her again. Emma's goal in this encounter was not to destroy Rachel, however, Rachel's aim was to annihilate Emma. The White Queen was only seeking to make a point. That's all, and she was entirely successful in this endeavor.

2) Exodus NEVER took on multiple X-Men and Avengers alongside Xavier in Bloodties. All Xavier did to him in that story was distract him with a mindblast so that Black Knight could chop him down with his energy sword...and it worked. Bloodties clearly stated in plain English that Xavier was a more powerful psi than Exodus, so stop making stuff up that didn't happen.

3) The issue didn't say that Emma could not defeat Exodus. Dust intervened before that contest could be settled. That said, in a future story, Emma, who was sitting on a couch on the opposite end of the world, was able to block the combined psi-power of Exodus and Sinister. So, it's really Emma>>Exodus>>>>>Rachel.

4) When the Phoenix Force was established as being separate from the Grey telepaths, it was likened to Excalibur. In other words, it was destined for those telepaths to wield it just like it was for King Arthur to wield the sword, Excalibur. Okay? So, again, Rachel's full potential was to be able to serve as host to the Phoenix Force. I have already explained this at length in my other posts and I will not repost that information again.

5) I think that some writers are still holding onto the whole unlimited power thing with Jean and Rachel for nostalgic puposes, really. However, Jean's conversation with the Phoenix Force settles the arguement, eventhough it is a conclusion you don't like.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qyBeYc08A...600/RCO026.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UDz88yMgH...600/RCO027.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VK1Crs15K...600/RCO028.jpg

This blows a big hole in your whole unlimited potential thing without the Phoenix Force. Read the conversation.

The Selene vs. Phoenix Rachel fight has Selene identifying the whole Phoenix powers as Rachel's full potential. This is the way it was for Jean as well. It was a bloodline inheritance. However, later, they removed it from being an internal aspect of the characters to an external entity they were destined to host. In other words, they don't have that power level on their own as clearly shown in the discussion with Jean and the Phoenix Force in the scans above. Come on, man, accept the facts. I'm through going over this with you now. If you want to continue this discussion, maybe somebody else can try and explain to you another way.

We’re back to numbers? Okay.

1) Emma allowed Rachel to recover? Can you PLEASE talk about these pages with without making stuff up entirely? Which panel exactly did that happen in, lol?

Also as I told you before, Rachel wasn’t trying to annihilate Emma. No one was trying to actually kill another X-Man here.

2) Xavier suckerpunched Exodus with a high power psi-blast and all he did was briefly stagger him. And this was after he’d had multiple fights, including one with an Eternal, had just shrugged off multiple X-Men and Avengers just panels before, including your beloved Storm like she was nothing, and at this point was confirmed fatigued on panel. This wasn’t exactly the same weakened Exodus Emma lucked out with.

3) Actually it did, Exodus told Emma as much and she acknowledged that. Then Dust (not Emma) won the fight.

Sinister’s another character who’s been displayed incredibly inconsistently. From taking on a ton of X-Men simultaneously and them being practically helpless against him to getting his ass handed to him by X-23 chopping off his hands. It’s baffling.

4) Except Rachel’s unlimited potential was after she’d entirely separated from the Phoenix and referred to just her natural telekinesis and telepathy. You’ve “explained” something that not in any actual comic.

The Greys having an aptitude for being Phoenix avatars is irrelevant. It’s not been exclusive to them in over 3 decades now.

5) You can think what you like, that doesn’t mean it’s canon. And your Phoenix scans don’t prove your point in the least, did you post the wrong pages?

And again, the Selene pages are irrelevant. Rachel wasn’t Phoenix in Reload or Gold and that’s where her unlimited potential was referenced. Her limits are only defined by her imagination, like her mom and brothers.

[rutog98]

Completely forgot about Wells Emma



Blocked Lady Mastermind too she was there and could only use her powers when Pixie distracted Emma

Carey's got my vote to write an Emma solo title. He clearly gave Exodus his full due and simply wrote Emma as being a superior telepath. Again, it's Emma>>Exodus>>>>>Rachel.

[ExodusCloak]

Carey's got my vote to write an Emma solo title. He clearly gave Exodus his full due and simply wrote Emma as being a superior telepath. Again, it's Emma>>Exodus>>>>>Rachel.

He also had Rogue say she was the world's most powerful telepath in front of exodus

[DDM]

He also had Rogue say she was the world's most powerful telepath in front of exodus

Because Xavier and Rachel were off planet at that moment.

[ExodusCloak]

Exodus ranking them all