Who is the top Telepath? the best telepath there is in the X-books?

[Havok83]

Actually, there were many allusions to Jean during the time she was dead which would indicate she was active in the White Hot Room and still active as a mind.

Still, even if she wasn't, X still mindwiped her without her even noticing. That makes him #1 as per the most current canon. Even Cassandra Nova is ahead of her in Red so far, so obviously she's not on top of her telepathic game at the moment.

yes and that stuff has been abandoned. PR is the most relevant thing to this discussion and she came back with no recollection of her time since dead.

14 yrs our time not their time. And you’ve been reading red, she’s already flexed her muscle a few times there, I wouldn’t call her rusty at all...

It was at least 3-4 years comic time. The point still remains

Red takes place after the annual. This annual is just a few short weeks after she came back from the dead. In Red she's in combat mode and fighting, which she wasnt with X. Her being rusty immediately after resurrection makes sense. She's had alot more time to settle where we are with Red

[BishopsJuice91]

yes and that stuff has been abandoned. PR is the most relevant thing to this discussion and she came back with no recollection of her time since dead.


It was at least 3-4 years comic time. The point still remains

Red takes place after the annual. This annual is just a few short weeks after she came back from the dead. In Red she's in combat mode and fighting, which she wasnt with X. Her being rusty immediately after resurrection makes sense. She's had alot more time to settle where we are with Red

Point taken, but X still had them looking amateur in the annual none the less. I still don’t buy her being the better telepath, telekinetic obviously but as far as telepathy I give Prof X the edge any day. Now I also believe her telekinesis plus telepathy allows her to pull off some amazing feats, that X just can’t do.

[Drey]

I’m prepped, it’s basically like my sex life.

Haha!

I still think that X would be stronger, especially after being in constant battle with the Shadow King. Time in the astral plane seems to work differently than in reality. Betsy fought Shadow King in Uncanny X-Force for centuries on the astral plane and probably only a few minutes passed in reality. X battled him for much longer.

[LordAllMIghty]

Stop it. X is just a better telepath then Jean at this moment.

There no need to make excuse, hell. next week Artie could mind control the planet.

[MECHANO]

Emma and Betsy over Rachel... smh

[Tazirai]

14 yrs our time not their time. And you’ve been reading red, she’s already flexed her muscle a few times there, I wouldn’t call her rusty at all...

Exactly. Jeans been dead like 4 years comic time lol. Thanks for pointing it out, Comic fans forget that sometimes a 12 issue arc, can take place in one day.

[rutog98]

1/2) Uh how? She was still his slave, still did all his bidding, still fucked over her friends at his request. Literally all her resistence was simply the Phoenix Force keeping him from raping her. And even that had to be retconned in.

3) It’s not been explicitly stated afaik, but it makes sense given her formative trauma and track record. And no I didn’t make it up, it’s a common fan theory. Like Lorna’s on susceptibility/history on the topic.

And I didn’t say Rachel’s never been enslaved via telepathy, I just said more often it’s been other things. Selene also didn’t use telepathy iirc, she used hypnotism.

4) So he says, personally I wouldn’t take his word on anything. Farouk is the first body we know of at least.

5/6/7) No, that’s not clear at all. There was no clear struggle even, you’re completely fabricating this.

Linking minds is logically easier (and faster) than going through memories. It’s only contact versus searching and digging. Granted Xavier linked all those minds simultaneously, which we don’t know how many minds Rachel was searching at once, but both are pretty impressive global displays of telepathy. Something on a scale we haven’t seen from many other telepaths. Once more, could you name some?

Emma was lashing out initially, she changed course partway through the fight. That doesn’t mean she was holding back though, it just means she had a different goal. And while Rachel was out for blood, no she didn’t want to destroy Emma either. And you’re wrong on the fight itself, Rachel wasn’t defensless against Emma and she successfully countered every move Emma made (to Emma’s own surprise) until that final emotional manipulation involving daddy. Then Rachel just gave up.

I’m not overblowing anything, I’m just listing some of Rachel’s actual on panel feats. What’s actually happening here is you’re trying your hardest to downplay them, and doing a pretty terrible job of it imo. Just accept it and move on.


Except that’s not what she said. She said it in the present tense, she never said never.

Rachel has limitless potential, Emma doesn’t. That’s established canon. Emma may be conceited but she’s not stupid.

1&2) There was no retcon to establish the Phoenix Force keeping Mesmero from raping Jean. All Classic X-Men #17 did was fill in the gaps as to what happened prior to the event of the X-Men being presented as carnival side shows. The issue clearly established Mesmero not to be a match for the Phoenix, which completely blows your argument that he can take control of a Phoenix Force character without the element of surprise.

3) So, again, you are making that up about Rachel being vulnerable to mind control because of her hound days because nothing in canon has stated that.

4) I believe it was one of the later issues of the Official Handbook that stated something like he was born from the first nightmare. If he made that comment in canon, though, it would be fact.

5/6/7) I'm not fabricating anything. The issue made it clear that Rachel was putting herself in danger by maintaining the global scan effort.

8) You are overplaying Rachel, hence she doesn't stack up well to other telepaths when she is pitted against them.

9) Rachel does not have unlimited potential on her own. Let's look at her fight with Selene in Uncanny X-Men #207:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ozR0hL2dTB...Y-mYvSPi=s1600

Selene: "I knew she possessed awesome potential, but I never dreamed it would be so quickly realized."

In this story, Rachel being Phoenix was the potential Selene was referring to.

Here are the rest of the scans of their fight:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/f7J8hl7rJ6...arClfJe_=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HHBcIMobF...6WzP5Z0z=s1600

This is before the retcon where the Phoenix Force was established to be a sentient entity all on its own. It was still viewed as being part of Rachel's innate potential, and not a cosmic abstract entity. That later changed to Jean, Rachel, and future psis in the Grey bloodline being able to wield the PF when it became a cosmic being separate from them while only a few others outside the Grey lineage could. In other words, Rachel's potential was hinged on her being able to host the Phoenix Force. This would also explain Emma's comment about Jean being underwhelming as a basic telepath (in other words, without the PF).

So, with that being the case, without the Phoenix Force, Emma>>>Rachel.

[rutog98]

"Omega Level Telepath" just mean the highest order of telepathic skill.

It doesn't mean you have an unlimited potential/energy to perform limitless telepathic feats.

The definition of omega mutants has evolved. It doesn'tmean what it used to, and I don't think it applies any longer to people like Jean and Rachel in the way it once did. Back then, after Marvel decided to make the Phoenix Force it's own unique being, only Grey-telepaths and a few others could wield the Phoenix Force which granted them unlimited power. Now, anyone can serve as its host which weakens the whole original omega concept. Phoenix Ressurection story clearly established Jean being much weaker without the PF during her conversation with it in the last issue when she turned down its power. This means while she remains an omega mutant, she doesn't have "unlimited potential" on the merits of her own innate power since it was hinged on the whole Phoenix thing. Otherwise, neither she nor Rachel would need the Phoenix Force to reach PF-level psi powers. So, what was established in Phoenix Ressurection also applies to Rachel. (See my post above with the Selene vs. Phoenix Rachel scans as it applies to both characters.)

I don't want to discuss Jean, but I mention her in passing since her situation parallels so much with Rachel's (and Jean was classified as one of the omega mutants from the start) and both of their potentials has historically been centered on the whole Phoenix Force thing (whether it was a part of their innate potential according to the canon prior to the whole Phoenix retcon, or it being something only psis of the Grey bloodline could wield after the retcon...and then was made moot over the years culminating in AvX where anyone could serve as host to the comic Tweety Bird). In order to get a good understanding of the whole Phoenix/Grey concept, one would have to study it in regards to both women to fit all the pieces of the puzzle together and get an accurate picture of this whole "ulimited power" thing where both characters are concerned. That said, if anyone wants to debate this with me, I will only do so in the context of Rachel since I've talked about this to death in past threads in regards to Jean Grey.

Moving on, let's face it, even Elixer as been categorized as an omega mutant at this point. He would not fit the original definition of what an omega mutant was (technically, neither would Iceman eventhough Bobby was named as one when the class first originated.)

All of this said, I would think being called an omega level telepath would equate to a person being an omega mutant under what the term has evolved into. We may have to agree to disagree on this, though.

[rutog98]

Okay, so what I guess I am saying in a nutshell is when the Phoenix concept was first introduced, it was intended to be the full expression of the potential of psis in the Grey bloodline. When the retcon came along and established the Phoenix Force to be a separate entity all on its own, Marvel tried to keep the whole "unlimited potential" concept going within the ranks of the Grey telepaths by stating while its separate from them, only they could wield it.

(However, there is a problematic story arc that messes this whole thing up. It's called "Inferno". If any Grey telepath had this potential to wield unlimited power, then Sinister would not have made that HUGE effort to get Pryor to procreate with Scott to birth baby Cable. He would have simply stopped with the clone.)

Anyway, moving past that, the number of people who could wield the PF kept increasing over the years under various writers until finally anyone could do it. So, I'd take comments regarding people like Rachel having "unlimited power" with a grain of salt because of everything I typed here and in my 2 posts above. Sure, if she wielded the PF, it would grant her unlimited power, but I simply don't buy her having that level of power on her own. The canon has tied this kind of power level to the whole Phoenix Force thing.

[DDM]

Jean and Rachel’s omega status has nothing to do with the Phoenix. Same as Cable.

1&2) There was no retcon to establish the Phoenix Force keeping Mesmero from raping Jean. All Classic X-Men #17 did was fill in the gaps as to what happened prior to the event of the X-Men being presented as carnival side shows. The issue clearly established Mesmero not to be a match for the Phoenix, which completely blows your argument that he can take control of a Phoenix Force character without the element of surprise.

3) So, again, you are making that up about Rachel being vulnerable to mind control because of her hound days because nothing in canon has stated that.

4) I believe it was one of the later issues of the Official Handbook that stated something like he was born from the first nightmare. If he made that comment in canon, though, it would be fact.

5/6/7) I'm not fabricating anything. The issue made it clear that Rachel was putting herself in danger by maintaining the global scan effort.

8) You are overplaying Rachel, hence she doesn't stack up well to other telepaths when she is pitted against them.

9) Rachel does not have unlimited potential on her own. Let's look at her fight with Selene in Uncanny X-Men #207:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ozR0hL2dTB...Y-mYvSPi=s1600

Selene: "I knew she possessed awesome potential, but I never dreamed it would be so quickly realized."

In this story, Rachel being Phoenix was the potential Selene was referring to.

Here are the rest of the scans of their fight:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/f7J8hl7rJ6...arClfJe_=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HHBcIMobF...6WzP5Z0z=s1600

This is before the retcon where the Phoenix Force was established to be a sentient entity all on its own. It was still viewed as being part of Rachel's innate potential, and not a cosmic abstract entity. That later changed to Jean, Rachel, and future psis in the Grey bloodline being able to wield the PF when it became a cosmic being separate from them while only a few others outside the Grey lineage could. In other words, Rachel's potential was hinged on her being able to host the Phoenix Force. This would also explain Emma's comment about Jean being underwhelming as a basic telepath (in other words, without the PF).

So, with that being the case, without the Phoenix Force, Emma>>>Rachel.

1/2) So Mesmero wasn’t a match for Phoenix Jean because a cosmic entity wouldn’t let him make her his sex slave, yet he still made her his functional slave in every other way anyway. Got it.

Mesmero also didn’t make Rachel his sex slave either btw. She and Jean served him in identical capacities so the distinction you’re grasping at here isn’t even relevant.

3) Nothing’s being made up here, I always presented it as just a theory rooted in logic+canon and it’s not even mine at that. This isn’t like you and your “Rachel would hurt herself” nonsense.

4) If he made it in canon (and he did, actually he also said he predates humankind) all it means is he said it. Not that it’s true.

5/6/7) No it didn’t. For someone who constantly accuses others of making things up it’s staggering how shamelessly you do exactly that.

If you look at the panel Storm was worried, both ethically and for Rachel’s well being. Rachel ignored her, brushed aside her concerns and didn’t appear to be struggling at all. And she was mass reading and scanning minds at once, in the billions going by the counts she gave. There’s no indication that Rachel would’ve hurt herself here, or also that it’s taken or will take long for this global scan, what she was looking for was the psi-Shielded HFC Inner Circle and their school.

8) I’m not overplaying, I’m just listing examples of her actual canonical ability. You’re also overplaying her vs track record though, particularly when many of the same oponents (Emma, Exodus, etc) have also beaten Jean, Xavier, etc.

9) Wrong. Rachel’s own mutant potential is limitless. Claremont established that several times in his Reload run and Guggenhiem recently reconfirmed it in Gold where it was revealed Rachel was basically inhibiting her own potential unconsciously. It has nothing to do with the Phoenix or Selene.

Emma has hard limits, Rachel doesn’t. Not that it matters, it’s not the size but how you use it.

Most Powerful =/= Best

[rutog98]

Jean and Rachel’s omega status has nothing to do with the Phoenix. Same as Cable.


1/2) So Mesmero wasn’t a match for Phoenix Jean because a cosmic entity wouldn’t let him make her his sex slave, yet he still made her his functional slave in every other way anyway. Got it.

Mesmero also didn’t make Rachel his sex slave either btw. She and Jean served him in identical capacities so the distinction you’re grasping at here isn’t even relevant.

3) Nothing’s being made up here, I always presented it as just a theory rooted in logic+canon and it’s not even mine at that. This isn’t like you and your “Rachel would hurt herself” nonsense.

4) If he made it in canon (and he did, actually he also said he predates humankind) all it means is he said it. Not that it’s true.

5/6/7) No it didn’t. For someone who constantly accuses others of making things up it’s staggering how shamelessly you do exactly that.

If you look at the panel Storm was worried, both ethically and for Rachel’s well being. Rachel ignored her, brushed aside her concerns and didn’t appear to be struggling at all. And she was mass reading and scanning minds at once, in the billions going by the counts she gave. There’s no indication that Rachel would’ve hurt herself here, or also that it’s taken or will take long for this global scan, what she was looking for was the psi-Shielded HFC Inner Circle and their school.

8) I’m not overplaying, I’m just listing examples of her actual canonical ability. You’re also overplaying her vs track record though, particularly when many of the same oponents (Emma, Exodus, etc) have also beaten Jean, Xavier, etc.

9) Wrong. Rachel’s own mutant potential is limitless. Claremont established that several times in his Reload run and Guggenhiem recently reconfirmed it in Gold where it was revealed Rachel was basically inhibiting her own potential unconsciously. It has nothing to do with the Phoenix or Selene.

Emma has hard limits, Rachel doesn’t. Not that it matters, it’s not the size but how you use it.

Most Powerful =/= Best

I've already straightened you out on all of this. I don't think you want to accept the facts, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I will, however, address Emma/Exodus beating Xavier. Where has Emma beaten a fully powered Professor Xavier in a head-on fight where neither had the advantage of surprise on each other nor anything boosting her powers? I don't recall any instance like that. Also, a weakened Xavier beat Exodus.

PS. You are right about Jean's and Rachel's omega status having nothing to do with the PF at this point because omega mutant doesn't mean what it used to.

[DDM]

I've already straightened you out on all of this. I don't think you want to accept the facts, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I will, however, address Emma/Exodus beating Xavier. Where has Emma beaten a fully powered Professor Xavier in a head-on fight where neither had the advantage of surprise on each other nor anything boosting her powers? I don't recall any instance like that. Also, a weakened Xavier beat Exodus.

PS. You are right about Jean's and Rachel's omega status having nothing to do with the PF at this point because omega mutant doesn't mean what it used to.

This isn’t agree to disagree. If you don’t want to continue a point by point response anymore fine but you were wrong on most of those points. Period.

There’s contextual factors all the time. Show when Emma beat Rachel without using a guilt trip. Show me when Madelyn beat Rachel without a surprise sucker punch. Show me when Selene beat Rachel without her being incredibly weakened. etc.

I’ll agree on this last point though, the definition of Omega mutant has been inconsistent and misapplied for a long time. If we wanted to shortlist a group of mutants with limitless potential though both Jean and Rachel would be on it. They both fit the original definition.

[rutog98]

This isn’t agree to disagree. If you don’t want to continue a point by point response anymore fine but you were wrong on most of those points. Period.

There’s contextual factors all the time. Show when Emma beat Rachel without using a guilt trip. Show me when Madelyn beat Rachel without a surprise sucker punch. Show me when Selene beat Rachel without her being incredibly weakened. etc.

I’ll agree on this last point though, the definition of Omega mutant has been inconsistent and misapplied for a long time. If we wanted to shortlist a group of mutants with limitless potential though both Jean and Rachel would be on it. They both fit the original definition.

You're right, this isn't an agree to disagree. The facts back me up.


I am going to explain this one last time: Originally, the Phoenix was supposed to represent the full potential of Jean and Rachel. It was not supposed to be an entity within itself. It was merely supposed to be the full expression of their power at the height of their full potential. Clear?

Okay, moving on. When Phoenix Jean died, years later, Marvel wanted to think of a way to bring her back to life, so they retconned the whole Phoenix concept to be an external cosmic being from Jean and Rachel so they could say the real Jean was at the bottom of a bay healing up in a cocoon created by the Phoenix. This means that unlimited Phoenix potential was no longer internal, but external and Jean's conversation with the Phoenix Force in the last issue of Phoenix Ressurection when she turned its power down made this point very clear. She doesn't have those power levels without the Phoenix Force. That said, way back when right after the retcon, Marvel tried to keep the part of the canon of Jean and Rachel being able to wield that kind of power at their full potential by saying only telepaths in the Grey bloodline could host it. However, that would later change in the canon as well since eventually anybody would be able to act as host to the Phoenix Force entity. Okay?

Going forward again, this would explain why after the whole Phoenix retcon establishing the Phoenix Force to be a separate being from the Grey telepaths that Sinister was not content with a mere Jean clone and sought the creation of Cable, a more powerful mutant that either of his parents. If Rachel and Jean had that unlimited potential by themselves without the Phoenix Force as you say, Essex would not have needed Cable as Madelyne Pryor would have done the trick. This much should be obvious.

Finally, under the definition of omega mutant when the term was first created, both Rachel and Jean DID fit that category because at that time, only a few characters in creation could serve as host to the Phoenix Force, and they were among that select group. When hosting the Phoenix, it granted them the power levels to be in that category. However, while the term omega mutant has been watered down over the years, and both Rachel and Jean would fit in that group even without the Phoenix Force boosting them going by the current definition of "omega class" (Emma fits this too, by the way), at this point, neither Rachel or Jean can be considered an omega mutant according to the original concept of the term since anybody can now wield the Phoenix Force. Rachel does not have that kind of cosmic potential on the merits of her own power without the cosmic bird inhabiting her.

That said, the retcon of the Phoenix Force was the best thing that happened since some of the feats Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Jean and Phoenix Rachel pulled have nothing to do with a TP/TK powerset. What does being a telepath and telekinetic have to do with devouring stars? Absolutely nothing. Reading minds and moving chairs with your thoughts have nothing to do with having stars for breakfast. Another good retcon was Marvel deciding that anybody can host this cosmic entity since it was illogical to restrict it to only being hosted by telepathic people given the full range of powers the Force is capable of wielding many of which has nothing to do with TP and TK.

And with that, I am through with this discussion. I think at this point we are just going around in circles.

[rutog98]

Wait a minute, there is one more thing I wanted to say about the Emma vs. Rachel fight. There were two layers to the fight. Rachel tried to beat Emma in all-out psychic combat, but failed miserably to Emma's superior power and skill. After losing to Emma in this regard (keep in mind that the White Queen merely chose to hold back by disarming Rachel of her psi-weapons and knocking away her psi-armor when Rachel came at her full-on), Rachel tried to defeat Emma emotionally only to be the one to lose in this arena as well. Upon realizing that she could not overcome the White Queen in any way, shape, or form, it was at that point that Rachel gave up. She was very fortunate that Emma was not out for blood, otherwise she would have done more than simply disarm Rachel and deconstruct her psi-armor. So, Emma beat Rachel in all regards during their altercation without even breaking a sweat.

[butterflykyss]

I would say Xavier. how is this even a debate?