Who is the top Telepath? the best telepath there is in the X-books?

[rutog98]

1) It doesn’t matter, that’s also how he caught Rachel in Excalibur but the fact of the matter is Mesmero’s a strong enough hypnotist to have 2 Phoenixes under his belt. And again his hypnotism isn’t necessairily psychic even, in their actual telepathic fight Rachel KO’d him in seconds.

2) Ororo’s indomitable will isn’t a trained defense, it’s natural. I guess Mesmero’s will is just stronger.

3) Because the Rachel and Mesmero story is a pretty shameless knockoff based on it? You keep using Mesmero as evidence of Rachel’s psychic inability but continue handwaving a nearly identical situation with Jean. The bias is clear.

4) I’m not making up anything regarding the Shadow King, it’s been established repeatedly he feeds on negative emotions and this is where he derives his power from. In Xavier’s first encounter we have nothing to go on but Xavier’s own recollections of the fight and he thought Farouk was just a powerful telepath like himself. The Muir Island stuff is pretty clearly laid out though and was something built up over almost 40 issues. SK took Legion, then slowly took everyone else, then lucked out and got Lorna (whose encounter with Zaladane had left her as something of a repository for exactly what SK uses), then amped up by Lorna he started drawing others to Muir and controlling others outside Muir like Val Cooper, Guido, Rogue, Colossus, etc. He’s not really on Xavier’s level naturally, he even admitted that in Astonishing when he revealed he was feeding off Proteus to gain any upper hand.

5) Well yeah it probably took awhile, 7.5 BILLION minds is a lot to look through. How long do you think it’d take you to look through 7.5 BILLION anything much less full minds? And if it’s so easy name all the other telepaths who’ve done anything similar without running to Cerebro.

And you’re making things up. The Phoenix echo she lost in the Starjamners mini she only gained shortly before partway through Brubaker’s RAFOTSE arc. She drew it out of Korvus’ Phoenix Blade but she didn’t have it before that, and definitely not during Claremont’s run beforehabd.

6) That makes no sense, why would getting unhinged from time even allow that? She wasn’t in the timesteam when she telepathically contacted Cable either, she was at the end of time and heing held prisoner. What enabled her to do it were her own omega mutant abilities.

7) We actually don’t know the extent of Bovan’s abilities, he tends to prefer operating through others which is why he likes telepathic puppets like Emma and Rachel. Also good to consider when Claremont wrote that encounter Psylocke wasthe telepath he had in mind as Bogan’s pet doing everything.


No, Rachel gave up because Emma emotionally disarmed her. She made Rachel face Scott’s genuine love for herself, but there was no KO. She outmaneuvered Rachel because she can’t outpower her.

1) Again, Phoenix Jean was caught unawares by Mesmero. I don't know what happened between Phoenix Rachel and that character. That said, if Phoenix Jean was caught off-guard, then a mental antagonist could be successful in subduing her. Mastermind proved that, however, when she caught onto him, he was completely powerless against her just as Mesmero would be.

2) Claremont didn't start really developing Storm's mental defenses until Uncanny X-Men #151-152. Period. Prior to that, she got clobbered by any mental attack that came her way.

3) The Mesmero/Rachel situation is different from the Mesmero/Phoenix Force Jean thing. Phoenix Force Jean Grey wasn't aware of the threat of Mesmero nor was she on the look-out for him. Rachel, on the other hand, was aware of his threat and was searching for him, and still lost.

4) Shadow King can feed off of negative emotions, but he has always been on Xavier's level naturally. Also, in Muir Island Saga, he grew to dwarf Xavier. He was so much stronger than the Prof. X that he was toying around with him and still managed to hit him with enough psychic energy to begin to crush Xavier's physical bones to powder. That is how Xavier lost his ability to walk again. At his base level, when he is at full strength, he matches Xavier's powers. However, he can grow to far exceed that if he wants.

5) Again, anybody with a global reach telepathically should be able to sift through all of those minds just like Rachel did. If they have a global reach, that means they can reach minds across the planet. So, that would encompass the entire human population. They would just have to spend the length of time it would take to sift through all of those minds.

6) IIRC, she had some of the Phoenix inside of her, and she just added to echo to what she already had.

7) She was unhinged in time because of what Cable did. I can see why that would allow her to send TP messages through time. She's no longer locked at a particular time spot meaning that opened the possibility for her to do what she did.

8) It doesn't matter who CC intended to use at first. The fact of the matter is whichever telepath he ended up utilizing had to be applied to all of the Bogan story. Also, the issue stated clearly that Bogan was a Xavier-level psi. It is possible that maybe he can't use his psi-powers in a non-psi puppet (kind of like how Emma could not use her TP when she inhabited Iceman's body) or maybe possessing a non-psi would weaken his own psi powers since their body isn't built to harness psychic energy like a telepath's. Who knows? Bottom line is he is a Xavier-level psi and had Rachel's power added to his own.

[rutog98]

We may just have to agree to disagree, DDM.

[ExodusCloak]

Quoting another poster from the Jean thread:

That's not canon anyway and not what he wrote on the page. Additionally, hours later he tweeted he didn't agree with a fan that x couldn't mind wipe Jean. Xavier was also tired and exhausted and that was a combat situation so they all had their guard up. And he thoroughly mind wiped her

http://m.ie.ign.com/articles/2007/07...-men-2-preview

No, Rachel gave up because Emma emotionally disarmed her. She made Rachel face Scott’s genuine love for herself, but there was no KO. She outmaneuvered Rachel because she can’t outpower her.

That's not stated anywhere in those issues. What is stated is Rachel used all her power and Emma beat her without breaking a sweat without needing to increase her power.

[Revenant]

I voted for Jean but I'm not sure about it. Emma has more feats and more experience with telepathy (Jean being depowered or dead, or boosted by the Phoenix doesn't help), and like Charles, Emma doesn't have the morality that Jean as a telepath has. Still, there are not many telepaths that can create illusions as powerful as the ones Jean created in PR.

We can easily remove Quentin, Betsy, Sinister, Legion and Cassandra. I wouldn't count Shadow King because he's a psychic entity as Onslaught. I know nothing about Exodus, so I cannot debate about him.

But maybe I'm wrong, maybe the strongest telepath is Gamemaster lol. Is he still alive btw?

[DDM]

1) Again, Phoenix Jean was caught unawares by Mesmero. I don't know what happened between Phoenix Rachel and that character. That said, if Phoenix Jean was caught off-guard, then a mental antagonist could be successful in subduing her. Mastermind proved that, however, when she caught onto him, he was completely powerless against her just as Mesmero would be.

2) Claremont didn't start really developing Storm's mental defenses until Uncanny X-Men #151-152. Period. Prior to that, she got clobbered by any mental attack that came her way.

3) The Mesmero/Rachel situation is different from the Mesmero/Phoenix Force Jean thing. Phoenix Force Jean Grey wasn't aware of the threat of Mesmero nor was she on the look-out for him. Rachel, on the other hand, was aware of his threat and was searching for him, and still lost.

4) Shadow King can feed off of negative emotions, but he has always been on Xavier's level naturally. Also, in Muir Island Saga, he grew to dwarf Xavier. He was so much stronger than the Prof. X that he was toying around with him and still managed to hit him with enough psychic energy to begin to crush Xavier's physical bones to powder. That is how Xavier lost his ability to walk again. At his base level, when he is at full strength, he matches Xavier's powers. However, he can grow to far exceed that if he wants.

5) Again, anybody with a global reach telepathically should be able to sift through all of those minds just like Rachel did. If they have a global reach, that means they can reach minds across the planet. So, that would encompass the entire human population. They would just have to spend the length of time it would take to sift through all of those minds.

6) IIRC, she had some of the Phoenix inside of her, and she just added to echo to what she already had.

7) She was unhinged in time because of what Cable did. I can see why that would allow her to send TP messages through time. She's no longer locked at a particular time spot meaning that opened the possibility for her to do what she did.

8) It doesn't matter who CC intended to use at first. The fact of the matter is whichever telepath he ended up utilizing had to be applied to all of the Bogan story. Also, the issue stated clearly that Bogan was a Xavier-level psi. It is possible that maybe he can't use his psi-powers in a non-psi puppet (kind of like how Emma could not use her TP when she inhabited Iceman's body) or maybe possessing a non-psi would weaken his own psi powers since their body isn't built to harness psychic energy like a telepath's. Who knows? Bottom line is he is a Xavier-level psi and had Rachel's power added to his own.

1) Mesmero caught Phoenix Rachel by surprise too, along with the rest of Excalibur minus Kitty. It was during the Girls School from Heck arc. The point though is that he’s a top tier hypnotist that’s snagged literally the most powerful TP on Earth (a Phoenix) twice.

2) Irrelevant. Mesmero’s will is canonically stronger.

3) I was comparing Mesmero/Rachel to Mastermind/Jean. Yes there are differences but that’s the obvious homage/ripoff. And sure there are some big differences, one was a genocidal cosmic scale powerhouse tor example.

4) Xavier’s only ever faced a powered up SK thpugh. Again, there is no baseline for him, he’s only as contextually powerful as he’s managed to make himself and we’ve seen him far weaker than Xavier before too. He’s a parasite and always in flux.

5) If anybody could do why don’t they? Still waiting for One Single Name out if you for this ridiculous position of yours.

6) You remember wrong. Reload era Rachel had zero Phoenix Force. Her Phoenix periods are well established (Uncanny 200-Excalibur 75 and the Blue Echo in RAFOTSE-Starjammers).

7) Except she wasn’t even unhinged in the timestream when she contacted Cable. She was trapped at the end of time.

8) I don’t disagree with this but it’s interesting you immediately say Claremont’s intention at the time doesn’t matter while simultaneously repeating it does matter when Mesmero effortlessly controlled Storm. That’s what we call hypocrisy.

That's not stated anywhere in those issues. What is stated is Rachel used all her power and Emma beat her without breaking a sweat without needing to increase her power.

Stated? It’s what literally happens, Rachel has a pity party as usual and auntie Ems picks her up and they go off to trash the HFC.

[ExodusCloak]

1) Mesmero caught Phoenix Rachel by surprise too, along with the rest of Excalibur minus Kitty. It was during the Girls School from Heck arc. The point though is that he’s a top tier hypnotist that’s snagged literally the most powerful TP on Earth (a Phoenix) twice.

2) Irrelevant. Mesmero’s will is canonically stronger.

3) I was comparing Mesmero/Rachel to Mastermind/Jean. Yes there are differences but that’s the obvious homage/ripoff. And sure there are some big differences, one was a genocidal cosmic scale powerhouse tor example.

4) Xavier’s only ever faced a powered up SK thpugh. Again, there is no baseline for him, he’s only as contextually powerful as he’s managed to make himself and we’ve seen him far weaker than Xavier before too. He’s a parasite and always in flux.

5) If anybody could do why don’t they? Still waiting for One Single Name out if you for this ridiculous position of yours.

6) You remember wrong. Reload era Rachel had zero Phoenix Force. Her Phoenix periods are well established (Uncanny 200-Excalibur 75 and the Blue Echo in RAFOTSE-Starjammers).

7) Except she wasn’t even unhinged in the timestream when she contacted Cable. She was trapped at the end of time.

8) I don’t disagree with this but it’s interesting you immediately say Claremont’s intention at the time doesn’t matter while simultaneously repeating it does matter when Mesmero effortlessly controlled Storm. That’s what we call hypocrisy.


Stated? It’s what literally happens, Rachel has a pity party as usual and auntie Ems picks her up and they go off to trash the HFC.

It's not what happens. Go read the dialogue. Rachel is using all her power, Emma isn't because she doesn't need to. That's what happens. No where is it stated that Rachel has more power. Rachel is mistakenly using a lot of power. However Emma does not need to. And she has it all in abundance

[DDM]

It's not what happens. Go read the dialogue. Rachel is using all her power, Emma isn't because she doesn't need to. That's what happens. No where is it stated that Rachel has more power.

Emma uses psychology and outmaneuvers Rachel. Because that’s how she operates. Rachel’s power is off the charts, Emma instead insists skill and experience are more significant. Seems pretty simple.

And yes that’s exactly what happened. There’s no KO, Emma simply manipulates Rachel into stopping the fight.

[ExodusCloak]

Emma uses psychology and outmaneuvers Rachel. Because that’s how she operates. Rachel’s power is off the charts, Emma instead insists skill and experience are more significant. Seems pretty simple.

And yes that’s exactly what happened. There’s no KO, Emma simply manipulates Rachel into stopping the fight.

You're ignoring what you stated earlier. You stated that Rachel has more power then Emma. The scan doesn't say that. Rachel used more power then Emma and Emma didn't need to use all her power for the reasons you just listed. This is a decisive win for Emma as Rachel is beat on the astral plane and concentration is broken.
Also Rachel is knocked over in the bath tub, Emma is sitting there comfortable.
The Exodus fight and the Matthew Malloy outburst also further cement Emma being better

[DDM]

You're ignoring what you stated earlier. You stated that Rachel has more power then Emma. The scan doesn't say that. Rachel used more power then Emma and Emma didn't need to use all her power for the reasons you just listed. There is a decisive win for Emma as Rachel is beat on the astral plane and concentration is broken.

The Exodus fight and the Matthew Malloy outburst also further cement Emma being better

Actually the scan doesn’t state what you say either. Nowhere is it stated Emma didn’t use her full power. Technically it doesn’t say Rachel is maxxing out either, all it does is imply Rachel has a raw power advantage and that it doesn’t matter. And it didn’t.

Also you’re wrong, Emma and Rachel exit astral battle simultaneously while talking. There’s no KO or even arguably a decisive win, at least in terms of force.

Exodus does paint Rachel in a worse light, although Emma didn’t psychically defeat him either. Neither could Jean or Xavier. Malloy did kill him and not Rachel though.

[DDM]

Also Rachel is knocked over in the bath tub, Emma is sitting there comfortable.

Because those were their positions when the conflict started. lol

[ExodusCloak]

Actually the scan doesn’t state what you say either. Nowhere is it stated Emma didn’t use her full power. Technically it doesn’t say Rachel is maxxing out either, all it does is imply Rachel has a raw power advantage and that it doesn’t matter. And it didn’t.

Also you’re wrong, Emma and Rachel exit astral battle simultaneously while talking. There’s no KO or even arguably a decisive win, at least in terms of force.

Exodus does paint Rachel in a worse light, although Emma didn’t psychically defeat him either. Neither could Jean or Xavier. Malloy did kill him and not Rachel though.

Rachel states her power was off the charts and Emma effortlessly disarms Rachel. It was clear that Rachel was using more of her power then Emma in that fight. That's what's established. Not that she has a "power advantage' either. That's not stated either. Just that Rachel was using more power instead of all those other stuff Emma listed because she was unskilled. Also Rachels power was off the charts according to herself so she was using a lot of other Thatl implies nothing more then that

Since when are astral fights ever about Force? Either way the statement of Rachel having more power is not stated anywhere there.

Emma stalemated him before Cyclops gave the order for Dust moved in. Rachel had a team of experienced X-Men attacking him and Rogue even managed to drain off his powers and still lost.

Matthew killed Exodus because he was "evil" he didn't want to harm Rachel. Additionally, I was actually referring to Emma knocking the X-Men on the floor when Scott died with her telepathic outburst that included Rachel and Quire. And she was not at full power either

[Triniking1234]

Can someone explain Mesmero a bit better?
In X-Men Grand Design Second Genesis #1 he manages to control PF Jean but when he does it to Rachel people were saying he shouldn't be able to do that. What's the deal?

[DDM]

Rachel states her power was off the charts and Emma effortlessly disarms Rachel. It was clear that Rachel was using more of her power then Emma in that fight. That's what's established.

Since when are astral fights ever about Force? Either way the statement of Rachel having more power is not stated anywhere there.

Emma stalemated him before Cyclops gave the order for Dust moved in. Rachel had a team of experienced X-Men attacking him and Rogue even managed to drain off his powers and still lost.

Matthew killed Exodus because he was "evil" he didn't want to harm Rachel. Additionally, I was actually referring to Emma knocking the X-Men on the floor when Scott died with her telepathic outburst that included Rachel and Quire. And she was not at full power either

You say effortlessly, but that’s not stated either. I could just as easily say Rachel “effortlessly” circumvented Emma’s restraints immediately before and it’d be just as accurate. The reality is they were trading psychic blows pretty evenly until Emma emotionally manipulated Rachel into just stopping. It’s stated Rachel’s power is off the charts, and it’s used as a distinction implying beyond Emma’s own power ceiling, and Emma acknowledges that while also mantaining her own advantages in skill, training and willpower are more vital to psychic battle. And they are. All this seems pretty straight forward and squares well with what we know about the characters.

As for Emma knocking Quire and Rachel over in her moment of distress that doesn’t mean anything. It was a surprise psychic outburst. When Rachel originally came to 616 she went nuts when she found out Jean died and had a psi-tantrum that also floored everyone, randomly throwing psibolts that were a match for Xavier. Top tier telepaths and extreme emotional distress can lead to that sort of thing.

[Havok83]

Can someone explain Mesmero a bit better?
In X-Men Grand Design Second Genesis #1 he manages to control PF Jean but when he does it to Rachel people were saying he shouldn't be able to do that. What's the deal?

Grand Design is non-canon and retconning things into one cohesive read

[DDM]

Grand Design is non-canon and retconning things into one cohesive read

It also happened in canon though.