View Poll Results: Who is the best Telepath?

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  • Jean

    152 43.18%
  • Xavier

    90 25.57%
  • Emma

    45 12.78%
  • Rachel

    11 3.13%
  • Psylocke

    21 5.97%
  • Sinister

    1 0.28%
  • Exodus

    3 0.85%
  • Cassandra Nova

    4 1.14%
  • Quentin Quire

    4 1.14%
  • Legion

    8 2.27%
  • Shadow King

    6 1.70%
  • Other

    7 1.99%
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  1. #316
    Ultimate Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    Your Avengers link is broken.

    You’re dead wrong on the rage/charts stuff but I already covered that. Weird that you’d double down on something like this though but desperate times call for desperate measures I guess.

    Also in your link Pak says it’s open ended. Maybe Celeste’s just stronger power wise or stronger emotionally, it could be either. It’s notable he gives the power answer first though as that’s the more obvious read and consistent with Emma’s history, who’s always been depicted as a step below Jean.

    Emma went nuts pretty fast only hosting half the Phoenix, none of the P5 could cope with being avatar long. Meanwhile Rachel did it for years and even willed it dormant at one point.
    No because he has Celeste host the force and the other Cuckoo's couldn't and Emma in his incredible Hercules. And Emma take control over a thousand Cuckoo's. The P5 had the Force for more then a few weeks. And she held a 5th of it without burning out. Meaning the second explanation is more plausabke given paks actions I'll get you the scan from avengers Academy 32

  2. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    There is definitely a correlation. It's in the same issue. It's written by the same writer. You're the one grasping at straws here.
    It’s out of order and there is no clear correlation. It doesn’t even make sense. And now you’re just getting upset.

    Emma referencing Rachel’s rage was just that, blind rage and no finesse. Emma tells Rachel that harnessing emotion is something that can be used but she has to do that. It’s a comment on training, not power. Emotion isn’t raw power and Rachel never said her rage levels were off the charts (as lol as that would be, I’d sort of love it).

  3. #318
    Ultimate Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    It’s out of order and there is no clear correlation. It doesn’t even make sense. And now you’re just getting upset.

    Emma referencing Rachel’s rage was just that, blind rage and no finesse. Emma tells Rachel that harnessing emotion is something that can be used but she has to do that. It’s a comment on training, not power. Emotion isn’t raw power and Rachel never said her rage levels were off the charts (as lol as that would be, I’d sort of love it).
    It's a comment on power not training. "Can be used to fuel our power" and she then comments on Rachel being fueled by rage. They are connected.

    Additionally, your comment about Rachel having more raw power is not corroborated by the issue. As again no commentary is made. So that is false

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    No because he has Celeste host the force and the other Cuckoo's couldn't and Emma in his incredible Hercules. And Emma take control over a thousand Cuckoo's. The P5 had the Force for more then a few weeks. And she held a 5th of it without burning out. Meaning the second explanation is more plausabke given paks actions I'll get you the scan from avengers Academy 32
    What do you mean no? Pak literally says it could be either. Your one sided reading really knows no bounds here.

    During the P5 Emma started losing it when they were down to 3 avatars, at 2 avatars she was cooking psychic cannibal dinners. All in a matter of just weeks, really days after losing the Rasputins... if only she were as strong as Jean, Rachel or Hope.

  5. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    It's a comment on power not training. "Can be used to fuel our power" and she then comments on Rachel being fueled by rage. They are connected.
    She doesn’t say Rachel is fueled by rage, she just comments on Rachel’s rage and recognizes herself in that. Harnessing emotion to fuel power would be a skillset, it’s a comment more on training rather than raw natural power levels. In fact Emma’s criticism would be more that Rachel isn’t using her rage to power herself.

  6. #321
    Ultimate Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    What do you mean no? Pak literally says it could be either. Your one sided reading really knows no bounds here.

    During the P5 Emma started losing it when they were down to 3 avatars, at 2 avatars she was cooking psychic cannibal dinners. All in a matter of just weeks, really days after losing the Rasputins... if only she were as strong as Jean, Rachel or Hope.
    No, Warsong came before Incredible Hercules. Pak have two possible explanations. Celeste is identical to her Cuckoo sisters and was the only one able to host it. Emma commented because she was not cold or cynical. Pak then proceeded to make Emma host it in Incredible Hercules and then Emma hosted it in AvX despite not being able to in endsong. Something changed and that was Emma as a person. Emma burnt out with seconds with a fragment because she was a cold cynical person. She changed and could host it after.

  7. #322
    Ultimate Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    She doesn’t say Rachel is fueled by rage, she just comments on Rachel’s rage and recognizes herself in that. Harnessing emotion to fuel power would be a skillset, it’s a comment more on training rather than raw natural power levels. In fact Emma’s criticism would be more that Rachel isn’t using her rage to power herself.
    Rage is a primal emotion and Rachel was using her Rage which is something Emma acknowledged she use to do but not anymore


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    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 08-17-2018 at 09:37 AM.

  8. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    No, Warsong came before Incredible Hercules. Pak have two possible explanations. Celeste is identical to her Cuckoo sisters and was the only one able to host it. Emma commented because she was not cold or cynical. Pak then proceeded to make Emma host it in Incredible Hercules and then Emma hosted it in AvX despite not being able to in endsong. Something changed and that was Emma as a person. Emma burnt out with seconds with a fragment because she was a cold cynical person. She changed and could host it after.
    Emma wasn’t even ever sole avatar in AVX and she still started cracking fast. They all did, that’s what happens when you throw 5 Alphas at an Omega level minimum requirement. Emma couldn't really cope with the Phoenix in 616 at any point ever, while Rachel was sole avatar for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Rage is a primal emotion and Rachel was using her Rage which is something Emma acknowledged she use to do but not anymore


    Emma doesn’t say that and the scans don’t support your argument. There’s no throughline to Rachel’s rage being her power, you’re conflating two different things here. In backwards order too.

    Emma also doesn’t say she doesn’t use her own rage or other emotions, in fact she implies the opposite.


    As for your AA scan, I don’t see Emma? What issue is that, I only read the AVX issues from that series?

  9. #324
    Ultimate Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    Emma wasn’t even ever sole avatar in AVX and she still started cracking fast. They all did, that’s what happens when you throw 5 Alphas at an Omega level minimum requirement. Emma couldn't really cope with the Phoenix in 616 at any point ever, while Rachel was sole avatar for years.


    Emma doesn’t say that and the scans don’t support your argument. There’s no throughline to Rachel’s rage being her power, you’re conflating two different things here. In backwards order too.

    Emma also doesn’t say she doesn’t use her own rage or other emotions, in fact she implies the opposite.


    As for your AA scan, I don’t see Emma? What issue is that, I only read the AVX issues from that series?
    She had a larger portion of the Force in AvX then in Endsong and she was it's sole Avatar in Incredible Hercules. Cyclops also hosted the full force and he's not Omega. You don't have to be an Omega mutant to host the PF. You don't even have to be a mutant as proven by Thane or that Firefly.

    Given that Greg Pak gave two explanations and Celeste could while yjr other Cuckoo's could not means Paks emotion explanation is correct.

    No you're just being obtuse. It's correlates. Also Emma states she used to do that when she was younger. That implies she doesn't do that anymore because it's pointless. As she explains raw power isn't for the likes of us.

    Avengers Academy 32. It's referring to Emma unless you want to be obtuse about that as well.

    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 08-17-2018 at 10:34 AM.

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    1) Mesmero caught Phoenix Rachel by surprise too, along with the rest of Excalibur minus Kitty. It was during the Girls School from Heck arc. The point though is that he’s a top tier hypnotist that’s snagged literally the most powerful TP on Earth (a Phoenix) twice.

    2) Irrelevant. Mesmero’s will is canonically stronger.

    3) I was comparing Mesmero/Rachel to Mastermind/Jean. Yes there are differences but that’s the obvious homage/ripoff. And sure there are some big differences, one was a genocidal cosmic scale powerhouse tor example.

    4) Xavier’s only ever faced a powered up SK thpugh. Again, there is no baseline for him, he’s only as contextually powerful as he’s managed to make himself and we’ve seen him far weaker than Xavier before too. He’s a parasite and always in flux.

    5) If anybody could do why don’t they? Still waiting for One Single Name out if you for this ridiculous position of yours.

    6) You remember wrong. Reload era Rachel had zero Phoenix Force. Her Phoenix periods are well established (Uncanny 200-Excalibur 75 and the Blue Echo in RAFOTSE-Starjammers).

    7) Except she wasn’t even unhinged in the timestream when she contacted Cable. She was trapped at the end of time.

    8) I don’t disagree with this but it’s interesting you immediately say Claremont’s intention at the time doesn’t matter while simultaneously repeating it does matter when Mesmero effortlessly controlled Storm. That’s what we call hypocrisy.


    Stated? It’s what literally happens, Rachel has a pity party as usual and auntie Ems picks her up and they go off to trash the HFC.
    1) Mesmero snagging a Phoenix twice merely means he knows how to catch somebody unawares. That's all. It speaks nothing about his powers since he would have been creamed in Phoenix Jean had been prepared for him.

    2) Mesmero's was canonically stronger than Ororo's at that time when he overcame her. However, Storm's will grew after that. Hence, Magneto was stated to have the strongest will of all in Uncanny 150, but then Storm grew to surpass his willpower. Stop being disinginuous. Also, this thread is not about Storm, so leave her out of it. I am not going to respond to anymore Storm/Mesmero comments. Mesmero is not on the level of a psi of the highest order, and Storm can beat psis of that calibur.

    3) See number 1. We are going around in circles.

    4) You are making stuff up about Xavier only facing a powered up Shadow King. You tell me one issue that states SK is really a low-powered character who only gets strong when he absorbs negative emotions? That issue does not exist. What is clearly established, however, is Shadow King is naturally as strong as Xavier, but has more skill and experience with Xavier having a stronger will. That said, SK can increase his power by drawing from other sources to dwarf Xavier in psi-strength.

    5) Rachel would have hurt herself if she continued to do that scan thing too long. Anyone else who wants to do what she did would have used Cerebro or Cerebra to accomplish the task faster and easier. The only thing I am saying is anybody who has a global reach telepathically can opt to do what Rachel did as all they would have to do is sift through the minds on the globe until they found the person they were scanning for. You are blowing this Rachel feat way out of proportion to try and make up for the fact she loses badly against virtually every telepath she comes across in psychic combat.

    6) I no longer care enough about this Rachel/Phoenix Force thing to debate it anymore, to be honest. Whatever the case, she was nothing compared to Emma when they fought. She came at Emma with all of her strength and skill while Emma held back and defeated her.

    7) Uh-huh, now you are changing your story.

    8) Now you are making stuff up about what I said with the Mesmero/Storm situation. Mesmero was able to get to Storm mentally (as could any character with mental powers when Storm was first introduced) because CC had not started to give her mental defenses the upgrades until many issues later. I'm through with this Storm/Mesmero discussion.

  11. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    Emma made the first very direct psychic attack while taunting she’d teach Rachel a lesson. As the fight went on and she recognized something of herself in Rachel she did move more defensive but that’s not at all how she started. Basically her mommy insincts took over, Jean could learn something here.

    The implication that Rachel is more powerful is there, just as the implication that Emma is more skilled is there. If you’re going by what’s definitively stated then neither are, it’s never literally said Rachel is unskilled or Emma is more skilled. It’s implied but you can’t have it both ways.

    And you’re wrong yet again, I did comment on the Exodus fight. I said it paints Rachel in a worse light, much like Jean and Xavier’s 90s confrontations with him. For better or worse Exodus isn’t really a character who’s been consistently depicted power wise. Emma lucked out and seems like she got one of the weaker variants on record.
    Your statement here is just wrong. Exodus is not inconsistently depicted power wise. You are only trying to make this argument because you don't like what it means that Emma was able to go toe-to-toe with him. First off, in the 90s, Xavier was stated to be a more powerful psi than Exodus during Bloodties. The story merely used PIS and CIS by holding Xavier back in not having him simply engage Exodus in full-on psi-combat. The moment the story arc stated Xavier to be more powerful than he, it really nullified Exodus as a realistic threat save for the PIS and CIS of Xavier not taking him down the same way the Terrigen Mist story line was rendered pointless when Storm was shown to be able to move the T-Mist clouds on her own, but not having her deal with them to make an accurate anology.

    When Exodus fought X-Man, he was in a weakened state, but the story arc explained that. It also offered that as the reason he targeted X-Man: he wanted to feed off of Nate's power to restore himself. So, when he was written weaker in this story, a reason was given, thus this instance cannot be used to say he is inconsistently written.

    The only time I can think of where Exodus may have been scaled down was an instance I vaguely recall where Havok was able to give him a go for his money. (I could be remembering details wrong on that, though.) Clearly, Havok's energy blasts would pale to insignficance against a telekinetic strong enough to decimate Genosha.

    Jean was shown to be nothing compared to Exodus in all of their encounters while Emma was shown and stated to be his match and superior on numerous occassions. In fact, this was true of Emma/Exodus everytime a comparison was either made or shown between them. I get that you don't like it especially when Rachel was shown to be a gnat to Exodus even when she had like 5 other X-Men helping her out against him. Also, I proved in earlier in this discussion how even when Jean had Psylocke's TP added to her own during Revolution, Emma was still a more powerful psi than she. Again, anyone who wants to learn about this, go back and reread my posts from page 11 forward in this thread when I do my Emma/Jean comparisons. I am not going to debate Jean again. Also, Exodus has no TP feats that would refute Emma being stronger than he based on her TP feats.
    Last edited by rutog98; 08-17-2018 at 11:12 AM.

  12. #327

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    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondQueen View Post
    When was the last time Jean or Xavier projected their thoughts to the whole world without Cerebro...
    Uh, X-Men 66 (but Xavier might have been using Cerebro -- it's been a while since I've read that issue).

    Sandy Hausler

  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy Hausler View Post
    Uh, X-Men 66 (but Xavier might have been using Cerebro -- it's been a while since I've read that issue).

    Sandy Hausler
    Let me add to your post: Let's not forget when Xavier was physically on the Skrull home planet when he reached out to all 8 billion skrull minds scattered across that world and psi-linked them collectively to Galactus while he was having a psychic conversation with the world devourer.
    Last edited by rutog98; 08-17-2018 at 10:59 AM.

  14. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    She had a larger portion of the Force in AvX then in Endsong and she was it's sole Avatar in Incredible Hercules. Cyclops also hosted the full force and he's not Omega. You don't have to be an Omega mutant to host the PF. You don't even have to be a mutant as proven by Thane or that Firefly.

    Given that Greg Pak gave two explanations and Celeste could while yjr other Cuckoo's could not means Paks emotion explanation is correct.

    No you're just being obtuse. It's correlates. Also Emma states she used to do that when she was younger. That implies she doesn't do that anymore because it's pointless. As she explains raw power isn't for the likes of us.

    Avengers Academy 32. It's referring to Emma unless you want to be obtuse about that as well.

    From my understanding that Incredible Herc arc was basically in an AU and nothing much was clairified regarding Phoenix Emma except she was an Avenger and too weak to penetrate Stark’s psi-shielding. Seems pretty irrelevant.

    Pak giving two explanations and intentionally leaving it open is just that. It blows my mind you simultaneously use that interview to support your argument and in the next breath contradict it. Pick one.

    It’s not about being obtuse, it’s about reading what’s there. You’re making leaps of logic that aren’t narurally supported in the text. It’s a grasping read at best which is hilarious given your previous hardline on it never specifically saying Rachel had higher raw power levels, even though that’s the obvious implication in their exchange. Emma doesn’t say that’s what she did when younger either, all she says is Rachel’s full of rate and it reminds her of herself when she was her age (like 20 years ago). For someone who argues a literalist reading you sure do take a lot of liberties when it suits you.

    And now I see why you selectively edited that AA scan. It was Phoenix Emma being an omega level muntant threat, not Emma herself being classed as an omega mutant. But hey, I’ll take obtuse over disingenuous.

  15. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    Let me add to your post: Let's not forget when Xavier was physically on the Skrull home planet when he reached out to all 8 billion skrull minds scattered across that world and psi-linked them collectively to Galactus while he was having a psychic conversation with the world devourer.

    For those who may want to look this up, this happened in X-Men #90. Xavier did all of this without Cerebro.

    Corrections: I used to say that Galactus was in space at the time. I just reread the issue and saw that he came to the Skrull World. However, Xavier still had the psychic strength and will to engage him in telepathic communication and psi-linked 8 billion Skrull minds scattered across the planet to Galactus at the same time.
    Last edited by rutog98; 08-17-2018 at 11:02 AM.

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