Who is the top Telepath? the best telepath there is in the X-books?

[rutog98]

I would say Xavier. how is this even a debate?

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[butterflykyss]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

and let's not forget in the most recent issue of Astonishing Xavier mind wiped jean without even breaking a sweat.

[rutog98]

and let's not forget in the most recent issue of Astonishing Xavier mind wiped jean without even breaking a sweat.

Again, true.

[DDM]

You're right, this isn't an agree to disagree. The facts back me up.

Emma did not beat Rachel by using a guilt trip. When Rachel came at Emma with everything she had with her psi-weapons and armor, Emma easily outfought her with barely any effort at all. She didn't use psychology to disarm Rachel and knock her psi-armor off of her. She simply outfought her with barely any effort at all. Rachel had no shot at winning this fight from the start, and it wasn't because of some guilt trip.

Now, onto the other stuff.

I am going to explain this one last time: Originally, the Phoenix was supposed to represent the full potential of Jean and Rachel. It was not supposed to be an entity within itself. It was merely supposed to be the full expression of their power at their full potential. Clear?

Okay, moving on. When Phoenix Jean died, years later, Marvel wanted to think of a way to bring her back to life, so they retconned the whole Phoenix concept to be an external cosmic being from Jean and Rachel so they could say the real Jean was at the bottom of a bay healing up in a cocoon created by the Phoenix. This means that unlimited Phoenix potential was no longer internal, but external and Jean's conversation with the Phoenix Force in the last issue of Phoenix Ressurection when she turned its power down made this point very clear. She doesn't have those power levels without the Phoenix Force. That said, way back when right after the retcon, Marvel tried to keep the part of the canon of Jean and Rachel being able to wield that kind of power at their full potential by saying only telepaths in the Grey bloodline could host it. However, that would later change in the canon as well since eventually anybody would be able to act as host to the Phoenix Force entity. Okay?

Going forward again, this would explain why after the whole Phoenix retcon establishing the Phoenix Force to be a separate being from the Grey telepaths that Sinister was not content with a mere Jean clone and sought the creation of Cable, a more powerful mutant that either of his parents. If Rachel and Jean had that unlimited potential by themselves without the Phoenix Force as you say, Essex would not have needed Cable as Madelyne Pryor would have done the trick. This much should be obvious.

Finally, under the definition of omega mutant when the term was first created, both Rachel and Jean DID fit that category because at that time, only a few characters in creation could serve as host to the Phoenix Force, and they were among that select group. When hosting the Phoenix, it granted them the power levels to be in that category. However, while the term omega mutant has been watered down over the years, and both Rachel and Jean would fit in that group even without the Phoenix Force boosting them going by the current definition of "omega class" (Emma fits this too, by the way), at this point, neither Rachel or Jean can be considered an omega mutant according to the original concept of the term since anybody can now wield the Phoenix Force. Rachel does not have that kind of cosmic potential on the merits of her own power without the cosmic bird inhabiting her.

That said, the retcon of the Phoenix Force was the best thing that happened since some of the feats Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Jean and Phoenix Rachel pulled have nothing to do with a TP/TK powerset. What does being a telepath and telekinetic have to do with devouring stars? Absolutely nothing. Reading minds and moving chairs with your thoughts have nothing to do with having stars for breakfast. Another good retcon was Marvel deciding that anybody can host this cosmic entity since it was illogical to restrict it to only being hosted by telepathic people given the full range of powers the Force is capable of wielding many of which has nothing to do with TP and TK.

And with that, I am through with this discussion. I think at this point we are just going around in circles.

Nothing on panel indicated Emma did anything “easily” or “with barely any effort”. That once again is you inserting a whole cloth fabrication based on apparently nothing into the issue. Emma didn’t even outfight Rachel, in reality Rachel countered every single move she made, to Emma’s clear on panel surprise, until Emma droped the daddy bomb. The “win” here was literally just Emma convincing Rachel to quit. She outsmarted her, outmaneuvered her, but when she was engaged in actual direct combat the best she did was stalemate Rachel.

As for your Omega diatribe there, the issue is you’re conflating Jean and Rachel’s omega classification with the Phoenix connection. Unfortunately that’s irrelevant since both characters were confirmed omegas or as having unlimited potential after they were entirely separated the Phoenix. One has nothing directly to do with the other and your linking of them doesn’t even work in continuity.

Those outside the Grey line have been able to host the Phoenix since the 1980s (Xavier) and 1990s (Feron, Giraud, etc) so even that statement’s off and was disproven before the Omega stuff. And some of those aren’t even mutants. You’re also holding on to Sinister and Madelyne as some sort of rationalization but that’s not foolproof either. Sinister makes mistakes, hell he couldn’t even get Maddie’s X-Gene to register or manifest and thought she was a waste at first. His motivations for creating Nathan have been all over the map too over the years (genetic research, access to power, as a host, as a host for Apocalypse, to kill Apocalypse, etc). None of this somehow disproves Jean being an Omega and it doesn’t even apply to Rachel at all.

[DDM]

Wait a minute, there is one more thing I wanted to say about the Emma vs. Rachel fight. There were two layers to the fight. Rachel tried to beat Emma in all-out psychic combat, but failed miserably to Emma's superior power and skill. After losing to Emma in this regard (keep in mind that the White Queen merely chose to hold back by disarming Rachel of her psi-weapons and knocking away her psi-armor when Rachel came at her full-on), Rachel tried to defeat Emma emotionally only to be the one to lose in this arena as well. Upon realizing that she could not overcome the White Queen in any way, shape, or form, it was at that point that Rachel gave up. She was very fortunate that Emma was not out for blood, otherwise she would have done more than simply disarm Rachel and deconstruct her psi-armor. So, Emma beat Rachel in all regards during their altercation without even breaking a sweat.

Fortunate how, what could Emma really do? Rachel “effortlessly” deconstructed her psi-restraints and “with barely any effort” she reversed Emma’s age attack. And Rachel did all that “without even breaking a sweat”.

No wonder Emma resorted to psychology.

[rutog98]

Nothing on panel indicated Emma did anything “easily” or “with barely any effort”. That once again is you inserting a whole cloth fabrication based on apparently nothing into the issue. Emma didn’t even outfight Rachel, in reality Rachel countered every single move she made, to Emma’s clear on panel surprise, until Emma droped the daddy bomb. The “win” here was literally just Emma convincing Rachel to quit. She outsmarted her, outmaneuvered her, but when she was engaged in actual direct combat the best she did was stalemate Rachel.

As for your Omega diatribe there, the issue is you’re conflating Jean and Rachel’s omega classification with the Phoenix connection. Unfortunately that’s irrelevant since both characters were confirmed omegas or as having unlimited potential after they were entirely separated the Phoenix. One has nothing directly to do with the other and your linking of them doesn’t even work in continuity.

Those outside the Grey line have been able to host the Phoenix since the 1980s (Xavier) and 1990s (Feron, Giraud, etc) so even that statement’s off and was disproven before the Omega stuff. And some of those aren’t even mutants. You’re also holding on to Sinister and Madelyne as some sort of rationalization but that’s not foolproof either. Sinister makes mistakes, hell he couldn’t even get Maddie’s X-Gene to register or manifest and thought she was a waste at first. His motivations for creating Nathan have been all over the map too over the years (genetic research, access to power, as a host, as a host for Apocalypse, to kill Apocalypse, etc). None of this somehow disproves Jean being an Omega and it doesn’t even apply to Rachel at all.

1) Why do you deny what happened on panel in the Emma vs. Rachel fight?

Rachel came at Emma full-on with a serious attack right here:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/cAIXHeLYmb...sxym5Pnv=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/uGjEOUbui4...3vcU6BDt=s1600

Emma was the master teacher giving a lecture to a simpleton student. Look at what she's saying to Rachel and how casually she disarms her and deconstructs her psi-armor. Emma is not breaking a sweat here. She's not making any real effort while Rachel is doing all she can to try and win this psi-fight.

Then, upon failing in this regard, Rachel tries to go at Emma psychologically only to lose in that arena as well:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/gdhk9kam2_...FvnkwE9V=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/IBV_PNFog7...0dCnPDLS=s1600

Then, after all of that, Emma says Rachel is not her equal as a telepath:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/9HTIh89OXY...jMSgPNqs=s1600

Rachel was ouclassed in every way BIG time in this fight. This would also explain why Exodus could do nothing else when he fought Emma telepathically as all his focus had to be directed to her when she was his psychic opponent while he could fight like 5 other X-Men at the same time he battled Rachel telepathically.

Emma is leagues above Rachel.

[Strong Girl Daken]

Jean is the strongest telepathic in the X-men and the strongest telepathic hero.

It looks like X is being set up as an antagonist. I can't see him being on an X-team. I just hope his storyline plays out in a comic I'm not reading and this new status quo goes away.

[rutog98]

Fortunate how, what could Emma really do? Rachel “effortlessly” deconstructed her psi-restraints and “with barely any effort” she reversed Emma’s age attack. And Rachel did all that “without even breaking a sweat”.

No wonder Emma resorted to psychology.

Emma wasn't going all out with her powers when she chained Rachel up. Hence, Rachel said after she broke free, "Let's do this for real," as she manifested her psi-weapons and psi-armor.

When Emma stripped away her weapons and psi-armor, she could have gone for the kill at that point, but opted not to. Heck, she stole Rachel's own psi weapons away from her.

I love how the fight started, though. I love how Emma socked her in the face on the Astral Plane and then told her she needs to teach her some manners:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ofCHwp06em...KpTburhT=s1600

This was not a fight at all. This was Rachel biting off far more than she could chew in challenging Emma, and the White Queen going easy on Rachel just to illustrate how Rachel is not her equal.

[rutog98]

As for your Omega diatribe there, the issue is you’re conflating Jean and Rachel’s omega classification with the Phoenix connection. Unfortunately that’s irrelevant since both characters were confirmed omegas or as having unlimited potential after they were entirely separated the Phoenix. One has nothing directly to do with the other and your linking of them doesn’t even work in continuity.

Those outside the Grey line have been able to host the Phoenix since the 1980s (Xavier) and 1990s (Feron, Giraud, etc) so even that statement’s off and was disproven before the Omega stuff. And some of those aren’t even mutants. You’re also holding on to Sinister and Madelyne as some sort of rationalization but that’s not foolproof either. Sinister makes mistakes, hell he couldn’t even get Maddie’s X-Gene to register or manifest and thought she was a waste at first. His motivations for creating Nathan have been all over the map too over the years (genetic research, access to power, as a host, as a host for Apocalypse, to kill Apocalypse, etc). None of this somehow disproves Jean being an Omega and it doesn’t even apply to Rachel at all.

I was going to ignore the rest of this post since I have already addressed most of these points in my earlier rebuttals to you, but I will make a few comments.

The first paragraph I have already addressed and debunked in my other responses to you. No need to say anything there. I've already proven the whole unlimited power concept with the two Grey women telepaths being connected to the whole Phoenix thing and I provided scans and issues to back it up like the Selene vs. Rachel images from Uncanny X-Men #207.

Regarding your second paragraph, as I've stated, only a few people outside of the Grey line were able to host the PF for years which put them in a special class for being able to house the comic bird. Furthermore, Stryfe, X-Man, and Cable without the techno virus are more powerful than non-Phoenix Force Jean and this has been consistently established throughout canon. In other words, Sinister has been proven right in his estimations regarding the progeny of Cyclops and Jean Grey being more powerful than either parent. He did not make a mistake in this assumption.

[butterflykyss]

Jean is the strongest telepathic in the X-men and the strongest telepathic hero.

It looks like X is being set up as an antagonist. I can't see him being on an X-team. I just hope his storyline plays out in a comic I'm not reading and this new status quo goes away.

Xavier mind wiped her with no strain at all. keep in mind the question asks who is the strongest telepath not who is the strongest telepathic hero.

[ExodusCloak]

Xavier mind wiped her with no strain at all. keep in mind the question asks who is the strongest telepath not who is the strongest telepathic hero.

Jeans smiling face in that last scan looks deranged.

[butterflykyss]

Jeans smiling face in that last scan looks deranged.

I kinda think that is what the artist was going for after the mind wiping. it made it more creepy in my opinion.

[ExodusCloak]

I kinda think that is what the artist was going for after the mind wiping. it made it more creepy in my opinion.

Xavier also got Jean to tie up her hair.

[rutog98]

Xavier mind wiped her with no strain at all. keep in mind the question asks who is the strongest telepath not who is the strongest telepathic hero.

Thanks for providing these scans since I did not read the issue. Xavier clearly did not catch Jeen and the rest of the O5 by surprise with his mindwipe. He told them beforehand what he was going to do and Jean even had time to reply.

Xavier: "Come tomorrow, you'll have moved on and I won't even be a distant memory." <----So, Xavier was letting them know he was about to mindwipe them.

Jean: "So, that's it?...etc.etc.etc."

Xavier: "...I always held out..."

Mindwipe.

Nope, nobody was caught by surprise here. They had forewaring, time to reflect on the forewarning, and everything.

[butterflykyss]

Xavier also got Jean to tie up her hair.

oh good observation lololol....
I think it was an impressive showing for x and reminder to not f@ck with him.