Who is the top Telepath? the best telepath there is in the X-books?

[rutog98]

X is still top dog, the perfect marriage of skill + power. No one else comes close tbh, except his sister.

Regarding Mesmero he’s a hypnotist. It’s amusing to see him used as evidence to degrade Rachel’s status when he’s also controlled both Jean and Rachel when they were each Phoenix. I don’t think there’s any real question in the Rachel/Emma matchup, Rachel smokes her in raw power but Emma still has an advantage in skill and experience.

Mesmero got to Phoenix Force Jean Grey only because he got the drop on her. If not for that, he would have been toast against her. In Rachel's case, he got to her repeatedly even when she was on the look-out for him.

Also, I haven't seen anything from Cassandra that puts her anywhere near Xavier's high end feats. She may be his psychic twin, but that doesn't mean she has developed her TP powers to the extent he has.

That said, I would put Shadow King above Xavier in terms of a power/skill combo. From day 1, SK was always a psi that matched his power, but had greater skill and experience than Prof. X.

[Havok83]

Mesmero got to Phoenix Force Jean Grey only because he got the drop on her. If not for that, he would have been toast against her. In Rachel's case, he got to her repeatedly even when she was on the look-out for him.

You like to shout PIS but the stuff with Mesmero most definitely was that. Everything Guggs wrote with Rachel there was an absolute mess. He made a big deal about her getting a power upgrade and then had the X-men shocked that she was now able to use her TP across distances as if she hasnt been doing that for years (w/o the PF or Cerebro). The Rachel in Gold was treated like an amateur and there was no reason why she should have constantly been trolled as many times as she was by Mesmero. Apparently the Dark Rachel occurred by Mesmero controlling Rachel from prison. Made NO sense.

[rutog98]

Rachel beat Selene without the Phoenix during the Reload era. Same arc Emma beat her in.

Rachel’s a clumsy as **** TP, and obviously a masochist, but her non-Phoenix FEATZ basically demolish everyone but Xavier. Emma doesn’t come remotely close. Neither do Betsy or Jean tbh.

When Rachel beat Selene in the arc you are referring to, she had the Phoenix Force icon over her eye and that shadow form. She was clearly being boosted. Now, while I don't think she was wielding the entire Phoenix Force during that fight, I believe she was possessed by a portion of it.

I don't buy Rachel being anywhere near as powerful as you say either, tbh.

[rutog98]

You like to shout PIS but the stuff with Mesmero most definitely was that. Everything Guggs wrote with Rachel there was an absolute mess. He made a big deal about her getting a power upgrade and then had the X-men shocked that she was now able to use her TP across distances as if she hasnt been doing that for years (w/o the PF or Cerebro). The Rachel in Gold was treated like an amateur and there was no reason why she should have constantly been trolled as many times as she was by Mesmero. Apparently the Dark Rachel occurred by Mesmero controlling Rachel from prison. Made NO sense.

Honestly, if Rachel beat Mesmero, it would not have surprised me, however, Rachel has a track record of always losing to other psi-characters that aren't even among the most powerful psis. It is because of that record that I am hesitant to call Rachel losing to Mesmero PIS.

So, to restate what I just typed clearly, I would have expected Rachel to beat Mesmero in a hypothetical battle, but Guggenheim wrote otherwise. More, Rachel's track record in psi-battles don't offer any evidence to refute the outcomes of what Guggs wrote.

[Bl00dwerK]

Jean? I would say Xavier, but I don't know...

[Askani's Flame]

Honestly, if Rachel beat Mesmero, it would not have surprised me, however, Rachel has a track record of always losing to other psi-characters that aren't even among the most powerful psis. It is because of that record that I am hesitant to call Rachel losing to Mesmero PIS.

So, to restate what I just typed clearly, I would have expected Rachel to beat Mesmero in a hypothetical battle, but Guggenheim wrote otherwise. More, Rachel's track record in psi-battles don't offer any evidence to refute the outcomes of what Guggs wrote.

It's funny because Rachel did beat Mesmero in the first arc of Gold, quite easily in fact. Guggenheim then made sure she lost every subsequent battle....to everything.....in the remainder of the book.

[rutog98]

It's funny because Rachel did beat Mesmero in the first arc of Gold, quite easily in fact. Guggenheim then made sure she lost every subsequent battle....to everything.....in the remainder of the book.

How did she beat him? What were the circumstances surrounding that fight? Issue number? Scans?

It could be Mesmero merely adjusted his mental tactics once he was aware of the threat Rachel posed in the future issues and then proved to be her better. I don't know. Guggenheim is such a hack writer.

[Askani's Flame]

How did she beat him? What were the circumstances surrounding that fight? Issue number? Scans?

It could be Mesmero merely adjusted his mental tactics once he was aware of the threat Rachel posed in the future issues and then proved to be her better. I don't know. Guggenheim is such a hack writer.

I don't have access to scans but it was Gold #3. She is shown having a psi battle with him and defeating him (hence how they were first jailed). Then she learns from their battle there are bombs that are going to detonate. But if anything is true, Guggenheim is a hack writer and made Rachel job even more than she has in the past, and has made Kitty virtually unreadable.

[DDM]

Mesmero got to Phoenix Force Jean Grey only because he got the drop on her. If not for that, he would have been toast against her. In Rachel's case, he got to her repeatedly even when she was on the look-out for him.

Also, I haven't seen anything from Cassandra that puts her anywhere near Xavier's high end feats. She may be his psychic twin, but that doesn't mean she has developed her TP powers to the extent he has.

That said, I would put Shadow King above Xavier in terms of a power/skill combo. From day 1, SK was always a psi that matched his power, but had greater skill and experience than Prof. X.

I don’t think it matters largely because Mesmero’s hypnotism isn’t necessarily psychic. Guggenhiem may have grafted on low level telepathy but that’s not how his main power works. He doesn’t need to catch you by surprise, he just needs to make eye contact. Besides, Phoenix Jean also fell prey to an actual psychic illusionist repeatedly in Mastermind. Her track record’s not better there.

Nova took over Xavier and locked him down in her body. She’s been described as every bit his equal, that’s sort of the point of a Mummudrai.

Shadow King is mostly talk, he needs an external power source (Legion, AU Xavier, Proteus, etc) to even be a credible threat. Bogan on the other hand...

When Rachel beat Selene in the arc you are referring to, she had the Phoenix Force icon over her eye and that shadow form. She was clearly being boosted. Now, while I don't think she was wielding the entire Phoenix Force during that fight, I believe she was possessed by a portion of it.

I don't buy Rachel being anywhere near as powerful as you say either, tbh.

I’ve explained this to you before but during Claremont’s Reload era Rachel wasn’t Phoenix. That was confirmed repeatedly and was editorial edict. Her power manifestation resembled the firebird but it still does now even all the time, it’s just her power signature. She beat Selene without the Phoenix, it was just her.

And Rachel’s FEATZ speak for themselves. Astral projecting across galaxies, mindscanning the entire Earth without Cerebro, telepathically communicating from the end of time... we’ve not seen many other telepaths manage similar level stunts. As a Storm fan I figured you’d appreciate raw displays of power more than circumstantial rumbles.

[PsychoEFrost]

I don’t think it matters largely because Mesmero’s hypnotism isn’t necessarily psychic. Guggenhiem may have grafted on low level telepathy but that’s not how his main power works. He doesn’t need to catch you by surprise, he just needs to make eye contact. Besides, Phoenix Jean also fell prey to an actual psychic illusionist repeatedly in Mastermind. Her track record’s not better there.

Little correction here. Mastermind (Jason Wyngarde) wasn't able to really do anything to Jean without Emma Frost's help. Controlling Jean and eventually creating Dark Phoenix is mostly on Emma. So it's a much different scene.

[DDM]

Little correction here. Mastermind (Jason Wyngarde) wasn't able to really do anything to Jean without Emma Frost's help. Controlling Jean and eventually creating Dark Phoenix is mostly on Emma. So it's a much different scene.

Emma wasn’t involved in the beginning, although she helped later. It’s not exactly making Jean look great either way.

[jollygoldfish]

I'm not saying that Jean can't grow in strength, but her showings have to be done in a way where the other characters also get their due. So far, we have seen other characters weakened to make Jean look good. Emma>>>Baby Xavier>>>Jeen.

But you are. If Jean is able to beat a psi, why is it automatically assumed its bc the other character is weakened? You know it could simply be bc Jean has grown as a psi and has gotten stronger. Just bc some characters were able to defeat her in the past, doesnt mean that should always be the case. You hate Jean and are gonna shout out PIS no matter what. You know thats true

By applying this logic to Emma then, all of Emma's feats are also PIS because they were used to prop her up at the expense of other characters - Jean, Betsy, Rachel, Xavier, etc. etc. Emma defeating Rachel? PIS. It was done to prop Emma up at the expense of Rachel. Xavier being defeated by Emma? PIS because it was done to make Xavier look weak. And it's not only telepaths. For 15 years, all the other X-women were shoved off the X-books, depowered or stuck in limbo all to prop up Emma so Marvel could stuff Scott and Emma down throats. In conclusion, Emma is the ultimate PIS character.

[PsychoEFrost]

By applying this logic to Emma then, all of Emma's feats are also PIS because they were used to prop her up at the expense of other characters - Jean, Betsy, Rachel, Xavier, etc. etc. Emma defeating Rachel? PIS. It was done to prop Emma up at the expense of Rachel. Xavier being defeated by Emma? PIS because it was done to make Xavier look weak. And it's not only telepaths. For 15 years, all the other X-women were shoved off the X-books, depowered or stuck in limbo all to prop up Emma so Marvel could stuff Scott and Emma down throats. In conclusion, Emma is the ultimate PIS character.

Can we not do this...

[The tall man]

By applying this logic to Emma then, all of Emma's feats are also PIS because they were used to prop her up at the expense of other characters - Jean, Betsy, Rachel, Xavier, etc. etc. Emma defeating Rachel? PIS. It was done to prop Emma up at the expense of Rachel. Xavier being defeated by Emma? PIS because it was done to make Xavier look weak. And it's not only telepaths. For 15 years, all the other X-women were shoved off the X-books, depowered or stuck in limbo all to prop up Emma so Marvel could stuff Scott and Emma down throats. In conclusion, Emma is the ultimate PIS character.

100% agree. Emma without a doubt is one of the most forced/pushed characters in all of comics. The wannabe "Queen" of mutants.

[PsychoEFrost]

100% agree. Emma without a doubt is one of the most forced/pushed characters in all of comics. The wannabe "Queen" of mutants.

You are welcome to your opinion. The data doesn't support it, but you do you.