View Poll Results: Who is the best Telepath?

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  • Jean

    152 43.18%
  • Xavier

    90 25.57%
  • Emma

    45 12.78%
  • Rachel

    11 3.13%
  • Psylocke

    21 5.97%
  • Sinister

    1 0.28%
  • Exodus

    3 0.85%
  • Cassandra Nova

    4 1.14%
  • Quentin Quire

    4 1.14%
  • Legion

    8 2.27%
  • Shadow King

    6 1.70%
  • Other

    7 1.99%
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  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    From my understanding that Incredible Herc arc was basically in an AU and nothing much was clairified regarding Phoenix Emma except she was an Avenger and too weak to penetrate Stark’s psi-shielding. Seems pretty irrelevant.

    Pak giving two explanations and intentionally leaving it open is just that. It blows my mind you simultaneously use that interview to support your argument and in the next breath contradict it. Pick one.

    It’s not about being obtuse, it’s about reading what’s there. You’re making leaps of logic that aren’t narurally supported in the text. It’s a grasping read at best which is hilarious given your previous hardline on it never specifically saying Rachel had higher raw power levels, even though that’s the obvious implication in their exchange. Emma doesn’t say that’s what she did when younger either, all she says is Rachel’s full of rate and it reminds her of herself when she was her age (like 20 years ago). For someone who argues a literalist take you sure do make a lot of liberties when it suits you.

    And now I see why you selectively edited that AA scan. It was Phoenix Emma being an omega level muntant threat, not Emma herself being classed as an omega mutant. But hey, I’ll take obtuse over disingenuous.
    Well then your understanding of the story is incorrect. They were the same 616 characters. History was changed but the object only effected the Earth. It did not change the reality. And Hercules was unchanged

    Pak gave two explanations. Then clarified. Hence why Incredible Hercules and Emma Frost with a different upbringing could host it, why AvX Emma could host it and not burn out in seconds. And Celeste could host it but not the others.

    Its not an obvious implication. The obvious reading is that Rachel was weilding her power wrecklessly. Hence why she was amping her power levels and Emma wasn't. But you seem to ignore that for your own narrative. If you want to be literal then nothing you stated is there. If you want to read between the lines it's obvious the story is saying Rachel is inexperienced with her power and is trying to over power Emma in the telepathic battle while Emma did not need to tap into her power she beat her through skill.

    Rachel's citation as an Omega mutant was Omega class threat by Nimrod when she had the Phoenix so I don't know why you're jumping. It also clearly states Omega level mutant threat. So Phoenix Emma automatically becomes an Omega level mutant then yeah? Her dna is changed? The classification would not change given Omega level mutsnt does not mean what you think it means. That meaning changed
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 08-17-2018 at 11:11 AM.

  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    1) Mesmero snagging a Phoenix twice merely means he knows how to catch somebody unawares. That's all. It speaks nothing about his powers since he would have been creamed in Phoenix Jean had been prepared for him.

    2) Mesmero's was canonically stronger than Ororo's at that time when he overcame her. However, Storm's will grew after that. Hence, Magneto was stated to have the strongest will of all in Uncanny 150, but then Storm grew to surpass his willpower. Stop being disinginuous. Also, this thread is not about Storm, so leave her out of it. I am not going to respond to anymore Storm/Mesmero comments. Mesmero is not on the level of a psi of the highest order, and Storm can beat psis of that calibur.

    3) See number 1. We are going around in circles.

    4) You are making stuff up about Xavier only facing a powered up Shadow King. You tell me one issue that states SK is really a low-powered character who only gets strong when he absorbs negative emotions? That issue does not exist. What is clearly established, however, is Shadow King is naturally as strong as Xavier, but has more skill and experience with Xavier having a stronger will. That said, SK can increase his power by drawing from other sources to dwarf Xavier in psi-strength.

    5) Rachel would have hurt herself if she continued to do that scan thing too long. Anyone else who wants to do what she did would have used Cerebro or Cerebra to accomplish the task faster and easier. The only thing I am saying is anybody who has a global reach telepathically can opt to do what Rachel did as all they would have to do is sift through the minds on the globe until they found the person they were scanning for. You are blowing this Rachel feat way out of proportion to try and make up for the fact she loses badly against virtually every telepath she comes across in psychic combat.

    6) I no longer care enough about this Rachel/Phoenix Force thing to debate it anymore, to be honest. Whatever the case, she was nothing compared to Emma when they fought. She came at Emma with all of her strength and skill while Emma held back and defeated her.

    7) Uh-huh, now you are changing your story.

    8) Now you are making stuff up about what I said with the Mesmero/Storm situation. Mesmero was able to get to Storm mentally (as could any character with mental powers when Storm was first introduced) because CC had not started to give her mental defenses the upgrades until many issues later. I'm through with this Storm/Mesmero discussion.
    1) You keep saying this but Mesmero’s hypnotism hasn’t ever been tested against an aware Jean. You’re making a claim you can’t honestly support.

    2) All I get from this is we’ve established both Mesmero and Magneto have stronger wills than Storm. Also Mesmero ensnared Storm (and the rest of the Gold team) just recently too so I guess it’s still correct after all these years.

    3) No, I’m talking about Mastermind. It actually isn’t the same thing exact either, different means/powerset (hypnotist vs psi-illusionist) although they were doing the same sort of thing with it.

    If you want to drill down with Rachel too she has something of a history with mind control dating back to her formative days when Ahab made her his premire hound at 14 years old or so. That past trauma could be a general weakness or backdoor here regarding Rachel, which makes some sense given it gets repeatedly abused constantly (Mojo, Crazy Gang, Bogan, bad Dino dudes, Mesmero, probably some others I’m forgetting).

    4) I’m not making anything up. The Shadow King can’t even operate consistently on the physical plane without a conduit or host, he’s a psychic parasite who works usually through tricks and deceit. The times he went up against Xavier in recent memory he was amped up by Legion/Lorna and Proteus respectively. And in their original encounter, where Farouk’s host body died, all we have are Xavier’s recollections of the battle. We never saw it firsthand or had much context regarding SK’s power base, all we know is he was a crimelord in Cairo and had previously worked with the Nazis/Hydra. Unless he’s prepared though he’s not apparently Xavier’s match.

    5) That’s pure conjecture on your part, Rachel said she was fine and appeared fine too. Also you’re claiming Cerebro is used for speed but that’s never been stated, it’s just an amplifier. Still waiting on those names...

    6) You don’t care because you’re wrong. Sure Emma emotionally manipulated Rachel into giving up, but Rachel spanked Selene into vanishing submission while simultaneously making out with a hot dude. Without the Phoenix. Canon.

    7) I’m not changing anything, that’s literally what I said in the first place! You really just can’t handle these FEATZ can you?

    8) I can see why you’d want to drop this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    Your statement here is just wrong. Exodus is not inconsistently depicted power wise. You are only trying to make this argument because you don't like what it means that Emma was able to go toe-to-toe with him. First off, in the 90s, Xavier was stated to be a more powerful psi than Exodus during Bloodties. The story merely used PIS and CIS by holding Xavier back in not having him simply engage Exodus in full-on psi-combat. The moment the story arc stated Xavier to be more powerful than he, it really nullified Exodus as a realistic threat save for the PIS and CIS of Xavier not taking him down the same way the Terrigen Mist story line was rendered pointless when Storm was shown to be able to move the T-Mist clouds on her own, but not having her deal with them to make an accurate anology.

    When Exodus fought X-Man, he was in a weakened state, but the story arc explained that. It also offered that as the reason he targeted X-Man: he wanted to feed off of Nate's power to restore himself. So, when he was written weaker in this story, a reason was given, thus this instance cannot be used to say he is inconsistently written.

    The only time I can think of where Exodus may have been scaled down was an instance I vaguely recall where Havok was able to give him a go for his money. (I could be remembering details wrong on that, though.) Clearly, Havok's energy blasts would pale to insignficance against a telekinetic strong enough to decimate Genosha.

    Jean was shown to be nothing compared to Exodus in all of their encounters while Emma was shown and stated to be his match and superior on numerous occassions, in fact, everytime a comparison was either made or shown between them (Enmma and Exodus). I get that you don't like it especially when Rachel was shown to be a gnat to Exodus even when she had like 5 other X-Men helping her out. Also, I proved in earlier in this discussion how even when Jean had Psylocke's TP added to her own during Revolution, Emma was still a more powerful psi than she. Again, anyone who wants to learn about this, go back and reread my posts from page 11 forward in this thread when I do my Emma/Jean comparisons. I am not going to debate Jean again. Also, Exodus has no TP feats that would refute Emma being stronger than he based on her TP feats.
    I think you have this backwards, the reason I like Rachel is she’s a goddamn mess. Bull in a china shop and it often backfires. Even as Phoenix this was true, she could pull impossible cosmic level stunts and then in the next panel go tantruming dishes all over or clutzing through a wall. That’s part of her appeal imo, I pointed out Emma’s underdog status previously but it’s just as true for Rachel in different ways. Which is why I love them both, while I think Jean generally suuuuucks.

    My issue is more with inconsistency and Exodus is a poster child there. So is Sinister honestly, and Mojo, and most big bads. They too often scale to the story or scene, which is tough to handle for us continuity-wonks.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    1) You keep saying this but Mesmero’s hypnotism hasn’t ever been tested against an aware Jean. You’re making a claim you can’t honestly support.

    2) All I get from this is we’ve established both Mesmero and Magneto have stronger wills than Storm. Also Mesmero ensnared Storm (and the rest of the Gold team) just recently too so I guess it’s still correct after all these years.

    3) No, I’m talking about Mastermind. It actually isn’t the same thing exact either, different means/powerset (hypnotist vs psi-illusionist) although they were doing the same sort of thing with it.

    If you want to drill down with Rachel too she has something of a history with mind control dating back to her formative days when Ahab made her his premire hound at 14 years old or so. That past trauma could be a general weakness or backdoor here regarding Rachel, which makes some sense given it gets repeatedly abused constantly (Mojo, Crazy Gang, Bogan, bad Dino dudes, Mesmero, probably some others I’m forgetting).

    4) I’m not making anything up. The Shadow King can’t even operate consistently on the physical plane without a conduit or host, he’s a psychic parasite who works usually through tricks and deceit. The times he went up against Xavier in recent memory he was amped up by Legion/Lorna and Proteus respectively. And in their original encounter, where Farouk’s host body died, all we have are Xavier’s recollections of the battle. We never saw it firsthand or had much context regarding SK’s power base, all we know is he was a crimelord in Cairo and had previously worked with the Nazis/Hydra. Unless he’s prepared though he’s not apparently Xavier’s match.

    5) That’s pure conjecture on your part, Rachel said she was fine and appeared fine too. Also you’re claiming Cerebro is used for speed but that’s never been stated, it’s just an amplifier. Still waiting on those names...

    6) You don’t care because you’re wrong. Sure Emma emotionally manipulated Rachel into giving up, but Rachel spanked Selene into vanishing submission while simultaneously making out with a hot dude. Without the Phoenix. Canon.

    7) I’m not changing anything, that’s literally what I said in the first place! You really just can’t handle these FEATZ can you?

    8) I can see why you’d want to drop this one.


    I think you have this backwards, the reason I like Rachel is she’s a goddamn mess. Bull in a china shop and it often backfires. Even as Phoenix this was true, she could pull impossible cosmic level stunts and then in the next panel go tantruming dishes all over or clutzing through a wall. That’s part of her appeal imo, I pointed out Emma’s underdog status previously but it’s just as true for Rachel in different ways. Which is why I love them both, while I think Jean generally suuuuucks.

    My issue is more with inconsistency and Exodus is a poster child there. So is Sinister honestly, and Mojo, and most big bads. They too often scale to the story or scene, which is tough to handle for us continuity-wonks.
    1 and 2) It was clearly established that Mesmero was no match for Phoenix Force Jean:
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/l2Y-GRanFR...hBUUkuuF=s1600
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/KM-IhuIFEt...qRu7cmBb=s1600

    If he could overpower Phoenix Jean, then he would have been able to work out his pervert desires with her.

    Also, he used Phoenix Jean to get control over Storm:
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/m-LGUBK82f...oRpscTmN=s1600

    Notice how he states that he's using Phoenix Jean's powers to supercharge his hypnotic abilities:
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/4dkHraIQlH...s6Ra5r6C=s1600

    So, it was the combined power of Mesmero and Phoenix Jean that took control of Ororo, and this was before Storm's willpower got the huge upgrades starting in Uncanny X-Men #151-152.

    So, there's that argument taken care of. No need to bring up Storm/Mesmero anymore since Ororo is not relevant to this discussion.

    3) Regarding your Rachel comment, nowhere does it state in canon she is susceptible to mind control because of her Ahab days. You are making that up. Rachel just loses to other psis because she's not a good telepath. That's all.

    4) Shadow King can't operate consistently on the physical plane because he is a psychic astral being without a physical form. This has nothing to do with power levels. Also, when he took control of billions of minds scattered across the globe, he was not being amped up by anybody. He did that completely under his own power and stated that Xavier would have been the only possible threat to him. Also, in the Muir Island Saga, he didn't match Xavier, he DWARFED Xavier.

    5) The issue stated if Rachel continued like that, she would have hurt herself. So, yes, she was fine at that time, but would not have been if she had kept going for too much longer. Again, if a telepath has a global reach, that means they can scan for minds across the planet. That would also mean they could sift through those minds within their global range. Cerebro does make the feat easier and faster because it amplifies their powers as you admit the device does. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I feel like you don't want to accept what is really common sense on this issue because you are trying to find a way to validate Rachel given her horrible track record when she is pitted against other telepaths.

    6) Emma did not win by emotionally making Rachel give up. Rachel did all she could to try and win that fight, and failed miserably. When she saw that she was clearly out-classed by Emma, that is when she gave up.

    7) Okay, you know what? I am not going to argue this feat with you anymore. We are not going to see common ground with this. That said, maybe this feat is not as impressive as you make it out to be given Rachel's constant defeat at the hands of other psis. Maybe what the other psis can accomplish that Rachel can't is more impressive than this feat.

    8) Actually, I dealt with it.
    Last edited by rutog98; 08-17-2018 at 12:06 PM.

  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Well then your understanding of the story is incorrect. They were the same 616 characters. History was changed but the object only effected the Earth. It did not change the reality. And Hercules was unchanged

    Pak gave two explanations. Then clarified. Hence why Incredible Hercules and Emma Frost with a different upbringing could host it, why AvX Emma could host it and not burn out in seconds. And Celeste could host it but not the others.

    Its not an obvious implication. The obvious reading is that Rachel was weilding her power wrecklessly. Hence why she was amping her power levels and Emma wasn't. But you seem to ignore that for your own narrative. If you want to be literal then nothing you stated is there. If you want to read between the lines it's obvious the story is saying Rachel is inexperienced with her power and is trying to over power Emma in the telepathic battle while Emma did not need to tap into her power she beat her through skill.

    Rachel's citation as an Omega mutant was Omega class threat by Nimrod when she had the Phoenix so I don't know why you're jumping. It also clearly states Omega level mutant threat. So Phoenix Emma automatically becomes an Omega level mutant then yeah? Her dna is changed? The classification would not change given Omega level mutsnt does not mean what you think it means. That meaning changed
    I just looked at the issues, it wasn’t even a splinter timeline but a magical false reality that immediately reverted when the caster was killed. Basically a fancy illusion like when Kulan Gath transformed Manhattan. Not much context is given for Emma but she seemed comically helpless against Wolverine and given it rewrote history it may not have even been the same Emma given the rewrite would have long predated her birth.

    I understand your reasoning but it’s garbage if it really hinges entirely on a throwaway cameo like this. Pak’s Song Series were in depth and explored these issues, Incredible Hercules didn't even acknowledge anything.

    I’m fine with a deeper reading, I’m not a literalist but the obvious read here is advantages on each side. What you say is true regarding how Rachel handles herself, it’s how she always has, but equating Rachel’s power levels comment as referencing her rage is an awkard and clumsy twisting of the text. That’s not what she’s referring too, rather obviously. Emma doesn’t contradict Rachel’s statement either, she tacitly acknowledges it stating power levels aren’t the key to telepathic victory. You say Emma didn’t need to match Rachel’s pure power levels, and while true that doesn’t mean she could. And continuity supports the idea that she likely couldn’t, as does the text.

    Nimrod classed Rachel as a “Class Omega” before she manifested the Phoenix. You’re right Rachel hasn’t technically been labeled an “Omega mutant” on panel but her natrual abilites have been confirmed to be limitless which is essentially the same thing. Meanwhile in the 90s Emma was a confirmed Alpha mutant (during AOA iirc), and her abilities were never described as limitless or even on par with those who are (like Jean).

  5. #335
    Goblyn King Drey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    Meanwhile in the 90s Emma was a confirmed Alpha mutant (during AOA iirc), and her abilities were never described as limitless or even on par with those who are (like Jean).
    Uh oh, you've done it now. You're gonna have to start defending yourself from all sides lol.

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    Emma Frost is a confirmed omega mutant. She is an omega-level telepath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    1 and 2) It was clearly established that Mesmero was no match for Phoenix Force Jean:
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/l2Y-GRanFR...hBUUkuuF=s1600
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/KM-IhuIFEt...qRu7cmBb=s1600

    If he could overpower Phoenix Jean, then he would have been able to work out his pervert desires with her.

    Also, he used Phoenix Jean to get control over Storm:
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/m-LGUBK82f...oRpscTmN=s1600

    Notice how he states that he's using Phoenix Jean's powers to supercharge his hypnotic abilities:
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/4dkHraIQlH...s6Ra5r6C=s1600

    So, it was the combined power of Mesmero and Phoenix Jean that took control of Ororo, and this was before Storm's willpower got the huge upgrades starting in Uncanny X-Men #151-152.

    So, there's that argument taken care of. No need to bring up Storm/Mesmero anymore since Ororo is not relevant to this discussion.

    3) Regarding your Rachel comment, nowhere does it state in canon she is susceptible to mind control because of her Ahab days. You are making that up. Rachel just loses to other psis because she's not a good telepath. That's all.

    4) Shadow King can't operate consistently on the physical plane because he is a psychic astral being without a physical form. This has nothing to do with power levels. Also, when he took control of billions of minds scattered across the globe, he was not being amped up by anybody. He did that completely under his own power and stated that Xavier would have been the only possible threat to him. Also, in the Muir Island Saga, he didn't match Xavier, he DWARFED Xavier.

    5) The issue stated if Rachel continued like that, she would have hurt herself. So, yes, she was fine at that time, but would not have been if she had kept going for too much longer. Again, if a telepath has a global reach, that means they can scan for minds across the planet. That would also mean they could sift through those minds within their global range. Cerebro does make the feat easier and faster because it amplifies their powers as you admit the device does. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I feel like you don't want to accept what is really common sense on this issue because you are trying to find a way to validate Rachel given her horrible track record when she is pitted against other telepaths.

    6) Emma did not win by emotionally making Rachel give up. Rachel did all she could to try and win that fight, and failed miserably. When she saw that she was clearly out-classed by Emma, that is when she gave up.

    7) Okay, you know what? I am not going to argue this feat with you anymore. We are not going to see common ground with this. That said, maybe this feat is not as impressive as you make it out to be given Rachel's constant defeat at the hands of other psis. Maybe what the other psis can accomplish that Rachel can't is more impressive than this feat.

    8) Actually, I dealt with it.
    1/2) That wasn’t Jean, that was the Phoenix itself keeping the rapist away. And Jean was still his slave, still helped him grab everyone else. So yeah, seemed like he was her match. I guess we can add Jean to the shortlist of stronger wills than Storm along with Mesmero, Magneto, Brainchild, Masque...

    3) It’s just a theory but one rooted in continuity that makes sense. Trauma can work that way and her Hound conditioning can make some sense of it. Similar to the idea that Lorna’s mental issues make her more suseptible to mind control too, which she also has a spotty record with.

    Speaking of making things up though, most of Rachel’s mind control or slavery instances didn’t even involve telepathy. At least I’m using actual canon to float my theiry rather than spouting unsupported bullshit like you.

    4) Being a psychic being doesn’t mean you can’t operate on the physical plane without a living host. Rockslide does it just fine. But he’s also not a psi-parasite that needs to lie and his trick his way into any real power. SK is dangerous but not be ause he can just naturally steamroll. That’s what got Farouk killed.

    5/6/7) No it didn’t state that. Storm was worried Rachel might hurt herself and Rachel told her she was fine. She seemed more annoyed by Ro than anything.

    You keep saying other telepaths could do this but you keep failing to prove it. Just repeating something won’t make it true no matter how many times you do it. We have Xavier on the Skrull homeworld as a comparable example and basically nothing else, certainly nothing from Emma. The closest she comes is when she used the Cuckoos to boost her DOX message. It’s time for you to put up or let it go, where are these easy examples?

    No, literally Emma made Rachel cry with her daddy issues and quit. Then she consoled her and asked to team up. No KO in sight, just crafty outmaneuvering. Emma’s great, she went in for a fight at first but realized halfway through as the more (ahem) mature psi she should do better and recognized something of herself in Rachel, so she played defense and inversion. She taught Rachel that lesson but not the way she lashed out with initially.

    lol, by all means quit while you’re behind. Can’t handle these FEATZ and I notice you won’t even touch Askani’s Flame’s excellent schooling on the subject. This isn’t an agree to disagree stalemate, it’s simply your inability to admit when you’re wrong.

    8) Nope, you’ve been dealt with. There’s a difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    Emma Frost is a confirmed omega mutant. She is an omega-level telepath.
    Omega level mutant =/= Omega level telepath

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drey View Post
    Uh oh, you've done it now. You're gonna have to start defending yourself from all sides lol.
    I’m prepped, it’s basically like my sex life.

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    With his showing in the Astonishing annual, Charles aka X just outclassed Jean again.
    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    I’m prepped, it’s basically like my sex life.
    There is a balm in Gilead.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    Emma Frost is a confirmed omega mutant. She is an omega-level telepath.
    Xavier and Emma are Omega-Class telepaths. Same with Betsy now. But they are NOT Omega Level mutants. Their powers are limited at a certain point as omega-class telepaths, whereas omega mutants have limitless potential power.

    Next to Exodus and Xavier, I would but Emma as the 3rd most powerful psi on the planet (sorry not sorry Jean). But she's not an omega level mutant, she has limits.

    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    3) Regarding your Rachel comment, nowhere does it state in canon she is susceptible to mind control because of her Ahab days. You are making that up. Rachel just loses to other psis because she's not a good telepath. That's all.
    Due to the extreme amount of mental tampering that Rachel endured at the hands of Ahab and the conditioners, her mind was broken and conditioned to take commands. Like anyone who has ever been tortured, they are easier prey for new conditioning and future mental attacks and conditioning. Also Lorna falls under the same category. While a favorite trope of Claremont anyways, due to her pre-existing hound conditioning it make her more susceptible to Mojo's treatment (that and she was bleeding out and felt abandoned). Since those long ago days, her mental wards were restored, and then re-broken several times by several writers. I'm biased as she's my favorite character, so while I do think she's a great telepath she is CONSTANTLY being jobbed by writers (much like Storm has) to prop up other characters to show threat levels. Mesmero being one. Everything about Gold has been abysmal for her as a character, and writers have been extremely inconsistent with the depiction of her skill level over the years so I get why people view her as a poor telepath.

    5) The issue stated if Rachel continued like that, she would have hurt herself. So, yes, she was fine at that time, but would not have been if she had kept going for too much longer. Again, if a telepath has a global reach, that means they can scan for minds across the planet. That would also mean they could sift through those minds within their global range. Cerebro does make the feat easier and faster because it amplifies their powers as you admit the device does. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I feel like you don't want to accept what is really common sense on this issue because you are trying to find a way to validate Rachel given her horrible track record when she is pitted against other telepaths.
    I can't speak for DDM, but at this point sans Xavier no other telepath has attempted this without so level of aid. Rachel HAD access to Cerebro but yet she was doing it through her own skill and energies. I am sure several other telepaths could do this but they haven't without any assistance. And also, while Storm was afraid Rachel was going to her hurt herself she was fine at that point.

    And regardless of her track record when pitted against other psis, this is something that they have not done. To say this is essentially saying 'You know what I don't like what I'm hearing so she sucks so there'.

    7) Okay, you know what? I am not going to argue this feat with you anymore. We are not going to see common ground with this. That said, maybe this feat is not as impressive as you make it out to be given Rachel's constant defeat at the hands of other psis. Maybe what the other psis can accomplish that Rachel can't is more impressive than this feat.
    Again, just because she has been written poorly against other psi's doesn't lessen any of her feats. She has the ability to communicate telepathically through space and time and realities. Check. Has been shown to be able to do so since her first appearance in Uncanny X-Men 141 and it was unique to her for a long time. And she's done it on several occasions as it is part of her powerset. Other than Cable and Legion, I have yet to see another psi on this list do that on their own (Jean as the Phoenix has in Here Comes Tomorrow). She communicated with Nathan through time due to her unique psi-bond with him. And as Mother Askani she transcended her physical form and became a being of pure psychic energy that could travel through time and space with ease (that's the definition of an Omega mutant). She sent her astral form across the universe. Check.

    Regardless of her track record against other psi's she still has accomplished these feats. Fact. Does this make her a better psi than another, no clearly not. She still doesn't hold a candle to Emma in many respects (even though during AvX Xavier did name Rachel as the most powerful psi after him on the planet) for me. But it does make her skilled in some areas and she can be a powerful psi to deal with. Writers make some terrible choices with characters, and often Rachel is the punching bag because people don't know what to do with her, same as other characters like Storm or Jean.

  12. #342
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    Xavier can mind-wipe Jean so Xavier is most powerful.

    Read Astonishing X-Men annual 1

  13. #343

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalsrix View Post
    Xavier can mind-wipe Jean so Xavier is most powerful.

    Read Astonishing X-Men annual 1
    Not according to the writer of the annual who said the only reason he could do that was because she wasn't expecting it. It's not like they battled each other and he won.

  14. #344
    Ultimate Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    I just looked at the issues, it wasnÂ’t even a splinter timeline but a magical false reality that immediately reverted when the caster was killed. Basically a fancy illusion like when Kulan Gath transformed Manhattan. Not much context is given for Emma but she seemed comically helpless against Wolverine and given it rewrote history it may not have even been the same Emma given the rewrite would have long predated her birth.

    I understand your reasoning but itÂ’s garbage if it really hinges entirely on a throwaway cameo like this. PakÂ’s Song Series were in depth and explored these issues, Incredible Hercules didn't even acknowledge anything.

    IÂ’m fine with a deeper reading, IÂ’m not a literalist but the obvious read here is advantages on each side. What you say is true regarding how Rachel handles herself, itÂ’s how she always has, but equating RachelÂ’s power levels comment as referencing her rage is an awkard and clumsy twisting of the text. ThatÂ’s not what sheÂ’s referring too, rather obviously. Emma doesnÂ’t contradict RachelÂ’s statement either, she tacitly acknowledges it stating power levels arenÂ’t the key to telepathic victory. You say Emma didnÂ’t need to match RachelÂ’s pure power levels, and while true that doesnÂ’t mean she could. And continuity supports the idea that she likely couldnÂ’t, as does the text.

    Nimrod classed Rachel as a “Class Omega” before she manifested the Phoenix. You’re right Rachel hasn’t technically been labeled an “Omega mutant” on panel but her natrual abilites have been confirmed to be limitless which is essentially the same thing. Meanwhile in the 90s Emma was a confirmed Alpha mutant (during AOA iirc), and her abilities were never described as limitless or even on par with those who are (like Jean).
    They were the same characters it wasn't a splinter time. High showings or low showings regardless she hosted it under his pen given different circumstances and then again in AvX

    Well at least now we agree on something we agree that the scene doesn't imply much on a raw power level comparison. What continuity are referring to? Feat wise Emma has plenty.

    Omega class contact is stated there.
    The Phoenix was present in her at the time when Nimrod scanned her he mentions it. Omega has s broad meaning nowadays. Vulcan being Omega plus it just means very powerful and can have multiple meanings. AoA is an alternative universe and Avengers Academy is 616.



    He describes himself as one too. And a the classification system he used classifies humsns and non-mutants like the avengers and selenes henchmen too

  15. #345
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strong Girl Daken View Post
    Not according to the writer of the annual who said the only reason he could do that was because she wasn't expecting it. It's not like they battled each other and he won.
    That's a BS response. I can't believe he said that. The issue ended with Jean in a pissed off mood. Why would she not have psi-shields up?

    That statement makes her looks worst. Her normal psi-defensive are so weak Xaiver can easily by-pass them without trying. That would never happen to 90s early 2000s Jean. Emma would probably laugh at his attemp... lord.

    Give me a link to this please.
    Last edited by LordAllMIghty; 08-18-2018 at 10:46 AM.
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