View Poll Results: Who is the best Telepath?

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  • Jean

    138 42.46%
  • Xavier

    84 25.85%
  • Emma

    43 13.23%
  • Rachel

    11 3.38%
  • Psylocke

    20 6.15%
  • Sinister

    1 0.31%
  • Exodus

    2 0.62%
  • Cassandra Nova

    4 1.23%
  • Quentin Quire

    4 1.23%
  • Legion

    7 2.15%
  • Shadow King

    6 1.85%
  • Other

    5 1.54%
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  1. #166
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfPsylocke View Post
    Your first questions answer is the entire New X-Men book.
    Your second question does not even warrant a reply and you know it.
    If you don't know the answer, that all you have to say.

    FYI...Jean is one of my favorite characters....but I really can't remember her showing incredible telepathic feats without some outside help.
    Last edited by LordAllMIghty; 07-12-2018 at 11:20 AM.
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  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Xavier definitely has more feats given TP is his only power but Jean is an omega with limitless potential. She has more raw power than him. He has decades of experience over her though. Outside of the original DPS, we've never seen a Jean vs Xavier psychic battle to put this to rest but I think Jean of today would fare quite well
    Oh, and one more thing, I now doubt that Jean's full potential would put her past Xavier since Xavier is now confirmed as an omega (along with Emma). Back in the 90s, when this claim was made about Jean potentially surpassing Xavier, that was the case when she was one of the few psis around who could serve as host to the Phoenix Force, and her whole potential was centered on the PF thing. However, that has now changed given that anybody, including non-psis, can also host the Phoenix Force. So, basically, I don't buy that even at full potential Jean would surpass Xavier...and she certainly has not even been able to approach him without the PF boosting her.

  3. #168
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    1 - Xavier
    2 - Cassandra Nova
    3 - Shadow King
    4 - Emma Frost
    5 - Exodus
    6 - Jean Grey

  4. #169
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    Now, let's look at other Emma/Jean comparisons:

    Here, Emma unleashes so much power when she mind-attacks somebody that Jean is overwhelmed by the psychic backlash alone eventhough she is not the target of Emma's mental attack. Jean has to beg Storm to stop Emma:
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/R6zOIHczJk...0vKErUuB=s1600

    Now,let's look at this scan:
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/BlYofWuRoW...nY5FAfSh=s1600

    What does it establish?

    1) The complexities of Jean's mind was why she could serve as host to the PF, otherwise, the cosmic entity might not have been able to use her. This is no longer the case since anyone, including non-psis, can also host the PF.

    2) Notice how he makes a big deal about Jean being able to send her mind into another body. Now, let's continue with this theme...

    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gEk4o8Pph...600/RCO009.jpg

    1) Jean had to send her mind into the body of the nearest telepath. In this case, that was Emma. Notice as well that Jean would not have been able to accomplish this feat had Frost not been dead or otherwise psychically dormant.

    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/mRZLwEuBNP...j5o_Qdlg=s1600

    Now, let's see what this scan establishes:

    1) Xavier stated that only a psi as powerful as Jean could do a mind transfer. In other words, in order to do this, a telepath just needed to be as powerful as Jean at the minimum. Emma is clearly stated to be at least that powerful (note, the issue did not say that Emma was equal to Jean, so it still leaves room for her to be more powerful...which she is as plenty of canon has shown when comparing their showings).

    2) Notice as well that Emma is not limited to only sending her mind into the body of another telepath like Jean was. Hence, it was stated that Emma could have sent her mind into any one of the hundreds of people present at the club at the time of the attack. Notice as well that this would be CONSCIOUS minds that Emma could have transferred into. Jean was limited to only sending her mind into the body of a dead or psychically dormant telepath.
    Last edited by rutog98; 07-12-2018 at 11:51 AM.

  5. #170
    Incredible Member PhoenixStudies's Avatar
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    The power switch was only referenced in an issue of X-Men Black Sun. After that, it was ignored. Is Psylocke's telekinesis still considered Jean's telekinesis or a creation of her brother Jamie since he re-created her? Does anyone argue that Betsy's telekinesis or her TK feats don't count because it originated from Jean or Jamie or a combination of both?

    The power switch storyline is so muddled. Jean got the shadow form from Psylocke's crimson dawn. Yet, later Claremont gave it and the eye tattoo effect to Rachel. This implies that it may have been re-interpreted as a part of the Grey mutation or their Phoenix Force connection. After all, Rachel would lose the shadow form and eye tattoo effect after the Blue Phoenix left her. Jean's telekinesis came back without explanation in New X-Men. Maybe it was a secondary mutation or the Phoenix's influence? Betsy got her telepathy back after being in her original body for a while (if I remember correctly).

    Does anyone argue that Rachel's feats during Uncanny Reload don't count because she must have had the extra power that Jean had gotten from Betsy somehow? Or that they don't count because her Phoenix Eye tattoo was seemingly later re-interpreted as a spark of the Phoenix Force (since she lost it when the blue Phoenix spark left her)?

    Some fans hold Jean to such a standard that almost none of her feats matter. Yet, they don't apply the same logic and rules to other characters.
    Last edited by PhoenixStudies; 07-12-2018 at 11:57 AM.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixStudies View Post
    The power switch was only referenced in an issue of X-Men Black Sun. After that, it was ignored. Is Psylocke's telekinesis still considered Jean's telekinesis or a creation of her brother Jamie since he re-created her? Does anyone argue that Betsy's telekinesis or her TK feats don't count because it originated from Jean or Jamie or a combination of both?

    The power switch storyline is so muddled. Jean got the shadow form from Psylocke's crimson dawn. Yet, later Claremont gave it and the eye tattoo effect to Rachel. This implies that it was a part of the Grey mutation or their Phoenix Force connection. After all, Rachel would lose the shadow form and eye tattoo effect after the Blue Phoenix left her. Jean's telekinesis came back without explanation in New X-Men. Maybe it was a secondary mutation or the Phoenix's influence? Betsy got her telepathy back after being in her original body for a while (if I remember correctly).

    Does anyone argue that Rachel's feats during Uncanny Reload don't count because she must have had the extra power that Jean had gotten from Betsy somehow? Or that they don't count because her Phoenix Eye tattoo was seemingly later re-interpreted as a spark of the Phoenix Force (since she lost it when the blue Phoenix spark left her)?

    Some fans hold Jean to such a standard that almost none of her feats matter. Yet, they don't apply the same logic and rules to other characters.
    1) Black Sun explained why Jean didn't have her TK powers, and why her TP powers were suddenly boosted. There is no basis for what you are saying.

    2) I believe that Rachel had at least a portion of the Phoenix Force when CC wrote her. Anyway, you are doing a bunch of mental gymnastics here. The canon clearly explained what happened. Jean lost her TK to Betsy, but gained Betsy's TP powers which were added to her own.

    3) Nobody is holding Jean to higher standards than other characters. It's just that some fans want preferential treatment for Jean. They want other fans to accept feats she did with outside help (Cerebro, Cerebra, Phoenix Force, Betsy's TP power added to her own) as her own natural power. That's just not the case. Jean isn't that impressive without outside help, but they are starting to devalue other psis now when they fight her by ignoring the historical showings of what the other telepaths have done in previous stories when they fight Jean in an effort to weaken them. Cassie Nova looks like she is going to be the next victim of this PIS crap. That fact makes me dislike Jean even more.

  7. #172
    MXAAGVNIEETRO IS RIGHT MyriVerse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Storm. She can manipulate the air into people's brains.
    Jovian electro-encephaly! Make it a thing, oh Claremazon scribes!

    Seriously though, I think it's time Jean officially overcame her teacher and became the master.
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  8. #173
    Incredible Member PhoenixStudies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    1) Black Sun explained why Jean didn't have her TK powers, and why her TP powers were suddenly boosted. There is no basis for what you are saying.

    2) I believe that Rachel had at least a portion of the Phoenix Force when CC wrote her. Anyway, you are doing a bunch of mental gymnastics here. The canon clearly explained what happened. Jean lost her TK to Betsy, but gained Betsy's TP powers which were added to her own.

    3) Nobody is holding Jean to higher standards than other characters. It's just that some fans want preferential treatment for Jean. They want other fans to accept feats she did with outside help (Cerebro, Cerebra, Phoenix Force, Betsy's TP power added to her own) as her own natural power. That's just not the case. Jean isn't that impressive without outside help, but they are starting to devalue other psis now when they fight her by ignoring the historical showings of what the other telepaths have done in previous stories when they fight Jean in an effort to weaken them. Cassie Nova looks like she is going to be the next victim of this PIS crap. That fact makes me dislike Jean even more.
    I know what X-Men Black Sun stated. Jean lost her telekinesis to Betsy and added Betsy's telepathy to her own, gaining her specialized telepathic abilities and her psychic affinity for shadows. I'm just saying it was essentially ignored after that considering it was never mentioned again and the power switch was never explicitly undone.

    How did Rachel get the shadow form and eye tattoo effect?

    Does Jean still have Betsy's telepathy or did she lose it when she died?

    How did Jean get her telekinesis back, considering Betsy had it? Did Jean get it back when Betsy died? Secondary mutation? Phoenix Force? It was never explained.

    Does Betsy still have Jean's telekinesis? Did she lose it when she died? Did she still have it but was simply altered by Jamie or were her powers re-created anew by Jamie?

    Considering Betsy got her telepathy back from her British body, does that mean that she never recovered the telepathy she lost to Jean and has Kwannon's telepathy now?

    So many unanswered questions.

    Jean has always gotten a power boost (really embracing more of her potential) after interacting with the Phoenix. She hatched from the cocoon with much stronger heavy-lifting telekinesis than she had previously. Now, after bonding and separating from the Phoenix again, Jean seems to be more powerful in X-Men Red than she has been before sans the Phoenix. Teen Jean has been portrayed as being very powerful without the Phoenix as well.

    I still don't think wielding the Phoenix takes away from Jean (or Rachel) especially since writers like Claremont and Morrison portrayed Jean's ability to tap into and wield the Phoenix Force as a natural ability or part of her mutation ( Here Comes Tomorrow etc). It is Darkstar's power to wield the dark force. No one says that her powers or feats don't count because she taps into an external power source. Heck, a lot of psychics draw strength from the astral plane or the psychic energies of others. Xavier and Betsy recently drew psychic energies from others to defeat the Shadow King. Betsy used crimson dawn power to defeat the Shadow King the first time around. Exodus and Teen Jean can absorb psychic energies from others. Selene can absorb energy from others. These are a part of their abilities so it doesn't null and void their feats.

    Rutog, you think Jean is weak and must stay weak. Therefore, you will not accept anything powerful she has done or will do. You think Jean being a threat to Cassandra is plot induced stupidity. Yet, since her rebirth Jean is clearly more powerful sans Phoenix than she has been before. She has been well established as having unlimited potential so it is not surprising that she continues to grow in power. In fact Jean's growing powers has always been a part of her character and one of her main and consistent themes. Her powers even grew during the original X-Men years with Jean in the first black/blue cat-mask being more powerful than when she was in the original costume and Green Mini-dress Jean being more powerful still.
    Last edited by PhoenixStudies; 07-12-2018 at 12:41 PM.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixStudies View Post
    I know what X-Men Black Sun stated. Jean lost her telekinesis to Betsy and added Betsy's telepathy to her own, gaining her specialized telepathic abilities and her psychic affinity for shadows. I'm just saying it was essentially ignored after that considering it was never mentioned again and the power switch was never explicitly undone.

    How did Rachel get the shadow form and eye tattoo effect?

    Does Jean still have Betsy's telepathy or did she lose it when she died?

    How did Jean get her telekinesis back, considering Betsy had it? Did Jean get it back when Betsy died? Secondary mutation? Phoenix Force? It was never explained.

    Does Betsy still have Jean's telekinesis? Did she lose it when she died? Did she still have it but was simply altered by Jamie or were her powers re-created anew by Jamie?

    Considering Betsy got her telepathy back from her British body, does that mean that she never recovered the telepathy she lost to Jean and has Kwannon's telepathy now?

    So many unanswered questions.

    Jean has always gotten a power boost (really embracing more of her potential) after interacting with the Phoenix. She hatched from the cocoon with much stronger heavy-lifting telekinesis than she had previously. Now, after bonding and separating from the Phoenix again, Jean seems to be more powerful in X-Men Red than she has been before sans the Phoenix. Teen Jean has been portrayed as being very powerful without the Phoenix as well.

    I still don't think wielding the Phoenix takes away from Jean (or Rachel) especially since writers like Claremont and Morrison portrayed Jean's ability to tap into and wield the Phoenix Force as a natural ability or part of her mutation ( Here Comes Tomorrow etc). It is Darkstar's power to wield the dark force. No one says that her powers or feats don't count because she taps into an external power source. Heck, a lot of psychics draw strength from the astral plane or the psychic energies of others. Xavier and Betsy recently drew psychic energies from others to defeat the Shadow King. Betsy used crimson dawn power to defeat the Shadow King the first time around. Exodus and Teen Jean can absorb psychic energies from others. Selene can absorb energy from others. These are a part of their abilities so it doesn't null and void their feats.

    Rutog, you think Jean is weak and must stay weak. Therefore, you will not accept anything powerful she has done or will do. You think Jean being a threat to Cassandra is plot induced stupidity. Yet, since her rebirth Jean is clearly more powerful sans Phoenix than she has been before. She has been well established as having unlimited potential so it is not surprising that she continues to grow in power. In fact Jean's growing powers has always been a part of her character and one of her main and consistent themes. Her powers even grew during the original X-Men years with Jean in the first black/blue cat-mask being more powerful than when she was in the original costume and Green Mini-dress Jean being more powerful still.
    1) The whole power switch thing was abandoned when Claremont lost Jean to Morrison, however, thoughout Revolution, it was the power switch thing that was in place. This does not negate the fact that Jean's Revolution feats were boosted by Betsy's powers. Furthermore, even the Betsy boost does not put Jean above Emma (who has better showings than Revolution Jean), and Jean was still FAR FAR FAR below Xavier and Shadow King in terms of power.

    2) Regarding all of your questions about how Jean got her TK back, etc, the only thing you are bringing up are dangling plotlines. Nothing more. Again, it does not help your case.

    3) X-Men Red Jean still hasn't done anything impressive to be honest. Also, Jean made the claim in Red that when she hosted the Phoenix Force, she held back out of fear of the creature taking over her. She further stated that now free of the PF, she is going to cut loose more, or something to that exent. This whole thing is a blatant lie. When she hosted the PF back during New X-Men, she reconstructed her body while being inside of the sun, and she edited the timeline for an entire reality. That was not restrained at all. This writer is lying about Jean's history to try and prop her up. Meanwhile, the historical showings, feats, and development of other characters are going to be ignored or scaled back to make her look powerful. To be honest, this is a trend that started in X-Men Blue with Jeen, and is continuining now in Red with adult Jean. We saw Emma written badly when she faced Jeen in Blue (all of Emma's prior feats and historical showings were ignored to give Jeen the victory), yet, when Emma is pitted against any other telepath other than Jeen/Jean, Emma wins. Emma even defeats or stalemates telepaths like Exodus, who bested Adult Jean, and Baby Xavier, who can defeat Jeen. Now, it looks like Cassandra Nova is about to be devalued over in Red to prop up Jean when that team faces her.

    4) The Phoenix Force is a separate being for either Jean or Rachel. It is a cosmic entity that sometimes bonds with them. This has been the case since the Retcon. Claremont, Morrison, and all other writers have established this. Now, however, anyone can serve as host to the Phoenix Force. So, it is no longer anything unque to Jean or Rachel, nor has it been special to them exclusively for decades. At first, only Jean and her progeny could wield the PF. Then, Excalibut expanded that number. After that, Morrison came along and expanded the number of people who can host it even further. Finally, AvX was written, and now anybody can serve as it's host.

    5) Betsy did not defeat the Shadow King with crimson powers. What she did was wait until Shadow King had expended all of his power to mind control billions of minds scattered across the globe all at once. While he was distracted doing that, and completely ignoring her, she sneak attacked him while his power and attention was all being spent elsewhere.
    Last edited by rutog98; 07-12-2018 at 01:04 PM.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuteClops View Post
    1 - Xavier
    2 - Cassandra Nova
    3 - Shadow King
    4 - Emma Frost
    5 - Exodus
    6 - Jean Grey
    No, he's not. Jean Grey definitely should be at the bottom of that list as Exodus humiliated her everytime they crossed swords. Emma was able to fight Exodus to a standstill in one issue, and in another, she was able to block the combined TP powers of Exodus and Sinister while she was a long ways away.

    That said, I would put Shadow King above Cassandra Nova, and possibly above Xavier.

    Cuteclops was being generous in adding Jean on that list as he could have put both X-Man and Stryfe there which would have bumped Jean off his top 6 list since both of these psis are also more powerful than she. Hence, this is why Sinister was so obsessed with creating a clone of Jean so she could have a child with Scott. If Jean by herself had the ultimate potential some of her fans claim she has without the Phoenix Force, Sinister would have stopped with Pryor and not bothered with trying to have her procreate with Scott to gain control of their progeny.
    Last edited by rutog98; 07-12-2018 at 01:23 PM.

  11. #176
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    I would say that Xavier, Exodus, Cassandra Nova and Shadow King are equivalent, and possibly also Nate Grey and, maybe, Emma Frost.

  12. #177
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    One thing I would like to empahsize once again:

    The trepidation I have with the upcoming X-Men vs. Nova battle (which the writer has already said that Nova fears Jean, but we don't know if it is her power that she fears, or the threat to Nova's plan Jean's team's mission is carrying out) is if it is Jean's power that Nova fears, it carries no water for me. Marvel has already started down a path with Jean where other characters are being scaled back to prop her up when pitted against her. This is true for both Jean and Jeen. It casts doubts on any outcome where Jean prevails against a psi that has been historically much more powerful than she. I will once more point towards the Emma Frost example.

    Jeen has never been a match for Baby Xavier. She required the Cuckoos to get the best of him the first time they fought when she used her pink form against him (so, she could not even win alone in her pink form). Then, the second time they fought, and no other psi was available to help her, Jeen was no match for Baby Xavier. She could only hold him off temporarily before he would break through her psychic powers. In the meantime, she ran away to try and free Professor X before Baby Xavier overcame her. In that same issue, Emma Frost came along and easily bested Baby Xavier in a psychic duel.

    Now, in issues prior to Emma beating Baby Xavier, we saw Jeen beat Emma. Now, Jeen is supposed to be weaker than Adult Jean, and prior to Jeen beating Emma, we saw the White Queen able to stand up to telepaths who easily beat Adult Jean plus Emma has better showings of psychic strength and skill than Adult Jean. So, Emma is only weak when she goes up against Jean as all of her historical feats and showings are ignored to prop up Jean. Yet, when pitted against other telepaths, even those who have proven to be Jean's/Jeen's better, Emma prevails.

    I have a feeling we are about to see Cassandra Nova being written down to prop up Jean just like Emma has been over the last two years or so. Such a bad showing for Nova is not necessary for Jean's team to win, especially when she has a teammate on the roster now (Ororo) who has bested psis even stronger than Nova. So, in this case, it looks like the histories of both Ororo and Nova will be scaled back in this story to prop up Jean.
    Last edited by rutog98; 07-12-2018 at 01:36 PM.

  13. #178
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    I don’t know about “best”, as comic book histories are inconsistent depending on who the writer wants to get jobbed or propped up. But my favorite is Emma Frost.

  14. #179
    Incredible Member Victorian_Soul's Avatar
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  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorian_Soul View Post
    I already dealt with that scan:

    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    1) This excuse does not work. She had her TP powers for at least a decade in the 90s and continued to have them into the 2000s. During the Seagle run, the writer was planning to have the Phoenix Force restored to her, but the editorial stepped in and stopped it.

    2) During Claremont's Revolution run, she had Psylocke's TP powers added to her own while Psylocke took her TK powers for herself. So, her TP powers were boosted with the addition of Betsy's psi powers, and still her showings were below other psis like Xavier and Emma. During this time, she boasted that her TP powers were strong enough to break through any mental shield, but that was clearly not the case as we saw the Russian government was able to create psi-blocking tech that stopped her cold in the very same issue this statement was made:

    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Bkplx8Vq7U...CTGzTYhh=s1600
    ^^^ In this scan, it is stated that no psychic shields can withstand the sum focus of her TP powers when focused to its sharpest edge.

    Now, let's compare this with Emma's mindblast:
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/1dyVMonM0n...uOrqFIqe=s1600

    Notice, this was not stated to be Emma's most powerful mindblast either, and look at how much more damage it did than Jean's even when Jean had Betsy's TP added to her own! Not only that, but Jean/Betsy mindblast was the focused sum totality of her TP powers honed to a knife-edge potency in a single attack. Notice how Emma didn't faint from the effort of her much more devastating attack either like Jean did after throwing her mindblast.

    Now, in the same issue that stated Jean's psi powers can break through any shield, natural or artificial, we see some artificial psi-blocking tech stop her psi-powers:
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/GbR4wFTDT5...UpiTwCpW=s1600

    Emma, on the other hand, was able to break through dozens of Dark Beast's artificial psi-blocking tech. Keep in mind that Dark Beast is one of the most brilliant super-minds in the MU and he specializes in genetics and mutations. He's carried years long worth of studies on mutant powers and genetics, but still was unable to create tech strong enough to keep Emma out:
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/oZrQKtQWLz...ATCRdueM=s1600
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/DFh-Fz0gVo...oCqzZT6u=s1600

    Emma is being shown with a whole lot more raw power than Jean even when Jean has Betsy's TP added to her own.


    Now, let's look at Xavier's feats!

    X-Men #90: Xavier is on Skrullworld and Galactus is in space on his ship. Xavier projects his astral form from planetside to Galactus who is, again, in space:

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/NhSlE6rAhD4...QtilMD5Q=s1600
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/xULEBCUPWYB...ZVls7lVQ=s1600

    Note in the second scan how it states there are 8 billion skrulls on the planet. Now, after establishing contact with Galactus despite the distance, Xavier channels all of the feelings of every skrull on the planet to Galactus. So, he connects with all 8 billion minds and shows Galactus their collective thoughts and feelings:
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ci8FWW2fHyG...wOVFSn6A=s1600

    Then we have the X-Men #78 where Shadow King mind controls 5 billion minds on Earth and he states that Xavier was his only threat:
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/hQigr8g9Ibt...qXiY7PpB=s1600

    This indicates that Xavier is in the same powerclass as Shadow King and could likely do the same thing.

    Then we have the Xavier vs. Dark Phoenix fight where he battles DP on all the infinite planes of existence at the same time in Uncanny X-Men #136:
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/aeyTNlfAxI5...1O8sGjVM=s1600
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/qoUhcIMZFw-...UBG88Syu=s1600

    Jean does not compare with Xavier or Shadow King. Without the Phoenix Force, she doesn't come anywhere near these people.

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