Who is the top Telepath? the best telepath there is in the X-books?

[SonOfPsylocke]

She not only comes near them, she surpasses both of them!

[PhoenixStudies]

5) Betsy did not defeat the Shadow King with crimson powers. What she did was wait until Shadow King had expended all of his power to mind control billions of minds scattered across the globe all at once. While he was distracted doing that, and completely ignoring her, she sneak attacked him while his power and attention was all being spent elsewhere.

Betsy was using her shadow astral form and shadow telepathy when she defeated the Shadow King during the Psi-war. The shadow form and power came from the Crimson Dawn. If not for that she would not have been able to defeat him.

It doesn't matter that the Phoenix Force is a separate entity or that it can use anyone or anything for its ends, it still remains that Jean and her children have the ability to tap into it based on their mutation. Sublime-Beast said that it was the ultimate mutation and that it was in Jean's blood. Phoenix power could be transferred through her blood. He said that the birth of mutants like Jean introduced cosmic strands into the gene pool. Dark Beast said that Jean belonged to a category above mutants. The Shiar killed the Greys because of their genetic potential. Another writer had Rachel dismiss the idea just because others besides the Greys could use the force. However, these ideas are not mutually exclusive. Just because the Phoenix can use Colossus, a sword, or a firefly does not mean that the Greys don't have a genetic link to the Phoenix Force. One concept doesn't have anything to do with the other. Rookshir and Korvus had a family connection to the Phoenix as well.

[Peanutsinspace]

Someone can't accept that characters change and grow.

As Red continues, I foresee countless comments about FEATZ and PIS and a certain redhead being "propped up" because "Hey! She can't do that! She's never done it before so it's not fair and doesn't count!"

It's going to be fun to watch.

[rutog98]

Someone can't accept that characters change and grow.

As Red continues, I foresee countless comments about FEATZ and PIS and a certain redhead being "propped up" because "Hey! She can't do that! She's never done it before so it's not fair and doesn't count!"

It's going to be fun to watch.

A pattern has already been established with Jean to weaken others and outright ignore canon to prop her up. While characters can change and grow, such development has to be demonstrated without devaluing other characters.

[Peanutsinspace]

A pattern has already been established with Jean to weaken others and outright ignore canon to prop her up. While characters can change and grow, such development has to be demonstrated without devaluing other characters.

Uh-huh. That sounds...totally made up.

[Havok83]

Uh-huh. That sounds...totally made up.

You took the bait

[rutog98]

Betsy was using her shadow astral form and shadow telepathy when she defeated the Shadow King during the Psi-war. The shadow form and power came from the Crimson Dawn. If not for that she would not have been able to defeat him.

It doesn't matter that the Phoenix Force is a separate entity or that it can use anyone or anything for its ends, it still remains that Jean and her children have the ability to tap into it based on their mutation. Sublime-Beast said that it was the ultimate mutation and that it was in Jean's blood. Phoenix power could be transferred through her blood. He said that the birth of mutants like Jean introduced cosmic strands into the gene pool. Dark Beast said that Jean belonged to a category above mutants. The Shiar killed the Greys because of their genetic potential. Another writer had Rachel dismiss the idea just because others besides the Greys could use the force. However, these ideas are not mutually exclusive. Just because the Phoenix can use Colossus, a sword, or a firefly does not mean that the Greys don't have a genetic link to the Phoenix Force. One concept doesn't have anything to do with the other. Rookshir and Korvus had a family connection to the Phoenix as well.

1) It was clearly established in that story that no telepath outside of Xavier would have been strong enough to fight the Shadow King head on.

2) Betsy was only able to take the Shadow King down because all of his power and attention was spent elsewhere:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/HGuFvvbp8w...Ewr9g3dq=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/JMQIvaofYO...QSmKhdw5=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/fqGH9RaM1V...Uqc6KGGp=s1600

If this were a head-to-head fight, Betsy would have died by mindwipe:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/kiP9axPJK4...k21EeKFc=s1600

3) It is no longer something that only Jean and her children can host as now anybody can do it. Do you understand what I am saying? That whole thing about Jean and her progeny being special because they can host the PF whereas few others can is no longer relevant as of AvX. AvX changed the game completely. All of that other stuff about only certain people being able to host the PF because of some kind of unique mutations is null and void now.

[Peanutsinspace]

You took the bait

No. I've seen it all before. I've seen him try and throw out whole arguments because he screams "PIS" or some other disqualifier he can come up with.
At this point, it's just funny to me.

[rutog98]

Uh-huh. That sounds...totally made up.

Really? Then why is it Emma is consistently able to beat psis that beat Jean and Jeen, but is weakened when she goes up against Jeen? Even in dealing with Storm, who isn't even a telepath, she gets scaled back everytime she is placed on a team with Jean. Storm's power levels get weakened, and her mental defenses get weakened drastically, and even stripped away completely. We saw Magneto get written down for Jean in Revolution as well when she was able to get inside of his head eventhough he has been able to defeat Phoenix Force Jean Grey (when her powers were scaled to rival Xavier's), stalemate Xavier's mental attack with his mental defenses, and even harness his magnetic powers in a way to completely jam Jean's psi powers in "Fatal Attractions". On top of this, he even got a helmet that creates a barrier against telepathy. So, to recap, his willpower alone has stopped psis much more powerful than Jean. Add to that is his ability to harness his magnetic powers to jam her telepathy, and his helmet. Two out of three of these defenses would stop Jean cold alone. If he were to employ all three of these defenses together...

I'm sorry, but Jean has no credibility since everybody keeps getting weakened to prop her up.

[Peanutsinspace]

Really? Then why is it Emma is consistently able to beat psis that beat Jean and Jeen, but is weakened when she goes up against Jeen? Even in dealing with Storm, who isn't even a telepath, she gets scaled back everytime she is placed on a team with Jean. Storm's power levels get weakened, and her mental defenses get weakened drastically, and even stripped away completely. We saw Magneto get written down for Jean in Revolution as well when she was able to get inside of his head eventhough he has been able to defeat Phoenix Force Jean Grey (when her powers were scaled to rival Xavier's), stalemate Xavier's mental attack with his mental defenses, and even harness his magnetic powers in a way to completely jam Jean's psi powers in "Fatal Attractions". On top of this, he even got a helmet that creates a barrier against telepathy. So, to recap, his willpower alone has stopped psis much more powerful than Jean. Add to that is his ability to harness his magnetic powers to jam her telepathy, and his helmet. Two out of three of these defenses would stop Jean cold alone. If he were to employ all three of these defenses together...

I'm sorry, but Jean has no credibility since everybody keeps getting weakened to prop her up.

I'm not arguing with you because you pull the same act over and over. You're that kid on the playground that makes up the rules in his own favor so that he can win. It's not a secret, everyone knows it. By all means, continue screaming that Jean is being "propped up" that writers are lying, that acts are simply PIS and don't count. It's all good bro. At this point, all it is, is entertainment.

[Saturius]

I think Jean is the obvious answer. Jean got humiliated a lot in the 90's by Stryfe, Exodus, Legion, Onslaught etc etc, but I don't think it's that big a deal. Those guys were meant to be absurdly powerful and were very hyped up as big time threats back then. It happens when you are trying to establish new characters as big deals. And I hope the Emma fans don't attack me cause I don't want to deal with them either, but if Emma had faced any of those characters in the 90s, I am sure she would've gotten beat down just as hard as Jean. Writers were not gonna allow those character to lose as it would've shot their villain credibility way too early as contenders.

Emma had a lot of nice feats in the 90s, but the only high level psi she faced in the 90's was a Nate Grey who didn't even know his telepathy was back. It's not like she went up against multiple overpowered psychics like Jean did during that era. Emma has always been a super powerful psi, but it wasn't till the 2000's that you saw her fight and prevail against a lot of powerful psychics.

It's not really fair for me to say to discount Jean's poor showings in the 90s, but I think intent is important and I just personally do not believe that if Emma were in the same situation in that time frame, that she would've fared any better. She certainly has better feats now though than Jean. but Jean being dead for 14 years didn't help in that regard.

[rutog98]

I'm not arguing with you because you pull the same act over and over. You're that kid on the playground that makes up the rules in his own favor so that he can win. It's not a secret, everyone knows it. By all means, continue screaming that Jean is being "propped up" that writers are lying, that acts are simply PIS and don't count. It's all good bro. At this point, all it is, is entertainment.

Yup, it's all fun, but I back up all of my claims with canon facts.

I think Jean is the obvious answer. Jean got humiliated a lot in the 90's by Stryfe, Exodus, Legion, Onslaught etc etc, but I don't think it's that big a deal. Those guys were meant to be absurdly powerful and were very hyped up as big time threats back then. It happens when you are trying to establish new characters as big deals. And I hope the Emma fans don't attack me cause I don't want to deal with them either, but if Emma had faced any of those characters in the 90s, I am sure she would've gotten beat down just as hard as Jean. Writers were not gonna allow those character to lose as it would've shot their villain credibility way too early as contenders.

Emma had a lot of nice feats in the 90s, but the only high level psi she faced in the 90's was a Nate Grey who didn't even know his telepathy was back. It's not like she went up against multiple overpowered psychics like Jean did during that era. Emma has always been a super powerful psi, but it wasn't till the 2000's that you saw her fight and prevail against a lot of powerful psychics.

It's not really fair for me to say to discount Jean's poor showings in the 90s, but I think intent is important and I just personally do not believe that if Emma were in the same situation in that time frame, that she would've fared any better. She certainly has better feats now though than Jean. but Jean being dead for 14 years didn't help in that regard.

I don't agree with your assessment about Emma, though. From day 1, Emma was an enormously powerful telepath. Look at her battle with a near Dark Phoenix-level Phoenix:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/aQ99128cVq...chTPY0Z6=s1600
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/7oq3-DnYb2...R91_uSNE=s1600

Phoenix Force Jean Grey viewed Emma as a powerful enough psychic threat that she took Emma's measure, learning the strengths and weaknesses of her psi defenses, and then attacked those weak points. Emma was putting up a fight. Phoenix didn't just unleash a mindblast at Emma to overwhelm her with a single psychic show of strength. I'm not so sure that she would have won that way against Emma, at least, not initially. To take this measure means Emma had to be a strong adversary, and this is a psi much more powerful than Exodus or Stryfe. Now, where Legion is concerned, I agree with you that he would have beaten Emma as would've Onslaught when he finally got access to Xavier's full power. However, it should be noted that when Onslaught easily humiliated Jean, he had only a portion of Xavier's powers.

That said, Emma's showings as a telepath are more impressive than Pre-Shaman X-Man.

P.S. Let's not forget as well Emma's feats surpasses Jean's even when Jean had Betsy's telepathic powers added to her own.

[Saturius]

I never said Emma wasn't a powerful psi. That Phoenix Emma fight doesn't prove anything for me. The text plainly states and makes it clear that Jean is playing with her food so to speak. She didn't consider Emma a threat at all. I'm just saying that in the 90s she didn't face any overpowered psychics at all, an if she had, she certainly wasn't going to be winning them imo. She was a b/ c list character back then. Her most impressive showings are definitely in the 2000s is all.

[PsychoEFrost]

I'm not arguing with you because you pull the same act over and over. You're that kid on the playground that makes up the rules in his own favor so that he can win. It's not a secret, everyone knows it. By all means, continue screaming that Jean is being "propped up" that writers are lying, that acts are simply PIS and don't count. It's all good bro. At this point, all it is, is entertainment.

Except that he's citing his sources, you're not.

I'll say he/she is being a little overzealous with the argument, but you're not so much arguing as saying "this happened 10 years ago, so I win".

He/She brings up a good point. Emma was strong enough to beat Charles III, Jeen was not, yet Jeen beat Emma. Jeen and Jean are main characters, so others are going to job to them to make them look better. That's WWE level story telling, and the Marvel writers are capable of better than that.

[rutog98]

I never said Emma wasn't a powerful psi. That Phoenix Emma fight doesn't prove anything for me. The text plainly states and makes it clear that Jean is playing with her food so to speak. She didn't consider Emma a threat at all. I'm just saying that in the 90s she didn't face any overpowered psychics at all, an if she had, she certainly wasn't going to be winning them imo. Her most impressive showings are definitely in the 2000s is all.

Okay, here is what I got from Emma's history:

1) The Phoenix vs. Emma fight was not Phoenix Force Jean Grey playing with her food. The issue didn't state that Phoenix was toying with Emma. It said she was taking her measure, learning her strengths and weaknesses, before going in hard. In other words, Emma's strong points were formidable, hence Phoenix thought it wise to learn her weaknesses so that she knew how to hit Emma mentally.

2) Even setting aside her showings from the 2000s, Emma's psychic showings from the 80s and 90s were more impressive than X-Man's, Stryfe's, or Exodus's showings as telepaths. Now, don't get me wrong, if you want to compare their physical powers (their telekinetic abilities versus her diamond form), Emma would lose for sure, but as a telepath, only Shadow King, Legion, Shaman X-Man, and Xavier have done better than Emma without the Phoenix Force boosting their powers.

3) In the 2000s, Exodus was still shown to be an enormously powerful telepath as he effortlessly swatted away Rachel's mental attacks while simultaneously fought at least half a dozen other X-Men. So, I am not saying that he was weakened in the 2000s, the same years where Emma was able to successfully counter him twice. Jean would not have been able to humiliate Rachel telepathically while fighting 6 other teammates. Jean would have gone down hard as Rachel alone could probably make Jean have to work for the win.

4) The fact is, Jean didn't just lose to these telepaths, she was clobbered like a giant stepping on an ant. She was so far below these other psis that she couldn't even put up a fight at all. She was too scared to even attempt a psi battle with Legion because he was so far above her in power. She was completely defenseless against Stryfe. On top of that, when the team went up against Shadow King, Xavier told her to sit herself down and not draw any attention to herself since Shadow King didn't know that she had regained her TP powers. He stated that SK was too far out of her league for her to even think about fighting him. Jean was also shown to be nothing compared to Pre-Shaman X-Man.

In conclusion, all I am saying is if you take Emma's telepathic feats (even herpre-2000s feats) and match them up against Exodus, X-Man, Stryfe, Xavier, Shadow King, etc., she beats out many of the psis you mention in the 90s.

On top of this, virtually every feat I have listed on Emma's behalf came from the 80s or 90s. Only two instances are an exception to this (her fight against Baby Xavier and her fight against Exodus). I am not so familiar with her 2000 feats since Morrison messed up the character for me. I stopped following her.