Toriko vs. Jin Mo-Ri vs. Son Goku

[The Arbiter]

Roshi and Piccolo moon busting is only weird when you look at the series in a vacuum.

The contextual evidence off The universe is that ki can blow up big stuff even when the characters are weak. It was established early and often. Season 1 of DB had mountain busting and it ramps up from there to the point where Nappa, a guy massively above anything in DB, with a gesture is flattening cities, and shaking continents with Vegeta being unharmed right next to him. That blast was well in excess of Tzar Bomba.

Hell, let's toss out moon busting completely. Lets ignore it. Piccolo and Roshi were island busting, city busting and mountain busting in DB. In Z, the Light Grenade did way less damage than that in terms of collateral. Way less than the first Special Beam in fact despite being a charged supposedly non compressed blast from a guy thousands of times stronger than Nappa.

This is one example of many, but do you feel it was less powerful than Raditz dwarfing mountain ranges with his blasts?

Edit: do you have any explanation that makes sense for attacks like that beyond "Toriyama is kinda dumb and lost sight"?

[Farealmer]

Depending on who you're talking about by "these guys," I think they can take that. People have been futzing around with city-destruction in DB for yonks. I have no issue with that being within their tolerances.

Why? If indeed they are not even class 100 strength wise at Namek and still hurting each other with physical attacks. Why can they survive city busters when they certainly were not even close to Namek levels with Raditz? The show makes it clear they are getting stronger. What exactly is getting stronger? If they are in the same ballpark on Namek as they are at Demon King Piccolo outside of specialized techniques?

[Nik Hasta]

Apologies, was on the train, responses incoming.

[The Arbiter]

Apologies, was on the train, responses incoming.

No rush! I myself am out and about. ^_^

[Nik Hasta]

Roshi and Piccolo moon busting is only weird when you look at the series in a vacuum.

The contextual evidence off The universe is that ki can blow up big stuff even when the characters are weak. It was established early and often. Season 1 of DB had mountain busting and it ramps up from there to the point where Nappa, a guy massively above anything in DB, with a gesture is flattening cities, and shaking continents with Vegeta being unharmed right next to him. That blast was well in excess of Tzar Bomba.

Tsar Bomba is a literal firecracker next to destroying the entire moon. The orders of scale are so far removed it's ridiculous to claim that it fits.

As I stated earlier, if you had an explosion that levelled Mt. Everest, the largest mountain in our real world - which would be waaaay above anything in DBZ at the time of Nappa - it would still be billions of times smaller than explosion required to obliterate the moon.

Hell, let's toss out moon busting completely. Lets ignore it. Piccolo and Roshi were island busting, city busting and mountain busting in DB. In Z, the Light Grenade did way less damage than that in terms of collateral. Way less than the first Special Beam in fact despite being a charged supposedly non compressed blast from a guy thousands of times stronger than Nappa.

This is one example of many, but do you feel it was less powerful than Raditz dwarfing mountain ranges with his blasts?

Edit: do you have any explanation that makes sense for attacks like that beyond "Toriyama is kinda dumb and lost sight"?

I actually refer you to my first proviso from my posting during today: I'm going to preface what will probably be a couple of posts made throughout today while I am at work with the following statement:

There is a propensity, however unconscious, in Rumbles circles to assume consistency and planning where there often is none. Most authors do not work on "what the feats say," as a basis for their plotting. As a board we have PIS and CIS as terms because they are things that large amount of things run on. Stories are, by and large, not about creating a perfect thesis on illustrating the power of a singular character or group of characters, they are about communicating narratives.

I don't say this as judgement of anyone but I do think it speaks to a bit on my feelings of the "wood for trees" aspect of this argument.

That is to say, I don't think Toriyama was really that fussed with perfectly logical progression of powers. He had a rough curve but I think he wanted to tell his story and have cool fight scenes. I'm not saying he's stupid or lacking for doing so it's just a thing that writers and artists do. The Light Grenade was about the scale of a nuke, the blast obliterates half the small island they are standing on and it made nuke style mushroom cloud way off in the distance over the horizon.

It also did literally nothing to Cell like I would have expected an attack of that scale to do to him but that's whatever.

It's also worth noting that Piccolo had expended a bunch of energy fighting #17 before that and had had Cell kind of beat his ass a bit before so he wouldn't have been in peak condition. I think that's what the technique did because that's literally what it did. I don't see why we apparently have to pretend that a blast that is like island busting+ is magically a planet buster when the series makes a whole point about "Watch out Vegeta, you'll accidentally the planet," when Vegeta does that in literally the next scene.

But again, this is less about what Z fighters can and can't do in terms of offence. I'm speaking about their perceived durability and how it doesn't make sense that their strength feats don't add up.

Why? If indeed they are not even class 100 strength wise at Namek and still hurting each other with physical attacks. Why can they survive city busters when they certainly were not even close to Namek levels with Raditz? The show makes it clear they are getting stronger. What exactly is getting stronger? If they are in the same ballpark on Namek as they are at Demon King Piccolo outside of specialized techniques?

I'm not sure I follow your question? My entire point of contention is people saying that "Oh because this one technique blew away city, that means that every beam that hits anyone is that level +++ up to the point that everyone can take planet busters," when the things they do in the series don't show that and they have no real strength feats the correlate to that.

That doesn't bear out to me because you have pretend that everyone is holding back to an absurd degree for 90% of their fights. The conjecture is "Oh, everyone is compressing their attacks despite that not being a thing really outside of fanon," doesn't convince me because it flies in the face of feats being things people did on screen.

[Guy1]

Apologies, was on the train, responses incoming.

[Nik Hasta]

Is this me getting kicked out of the thread?

I mean, I'll go to CBR jail if that's what it takes.

[The Arbiter]

You are twisting my examples. I said it was "well in excess" of Tzar Bomba. Also ive dropped the moon busting if favor of simply trying to point out why ki compression is no more silly of an idea than compartmentalized durability condidering there is no direct stated evidence for either thing.

Nappas attack created an enormous flare of light visible from deep space well beyond what any nuke could do. The shockwaves were (admittedly im shaking on the exact wording here) shaking the planet or the continent or whatever, and blowing debris around hundreds of miles away. I think him powering up later was also shaking people miles away, and causing crystal balls to short circuit. The simple fact that he powered up at all sort of implies that almost everyone past Raditz had some ki control even if they are lacking fine tuning such as sensing or suppression.

Nappa is weak. He did this with all the effort of smiling and raising his fingers. Do you believe he was capable with a gesture to be tossing out energy far in excess of what what say Zarbon did? Honestly, number 17 in SUPER never throws out energy with that sort of scale. Nappa can toss out more energy than 17 in Super now?

In a universe where certain techniques inherently can be compressed, i dont find it that crazy to extend the implications a little.

[Farealmer]

I'm not sure I follow your question? My entire point of contention is people saying that "Oh because this one technique blew away city, that means that every beam that hits anyone is that level +++ up to the point that everyone can take planet busters," when the things they do in the series don't show that and they have no real strength feats the correlate to that.

My question could be crushed down to, how far apart do you think their physical abilities are to the energy attacks they use to casually harm each other with? For example what class of strength were they at Raditz level compared to how powerful there energy attacks are?

[Guy1]

Is this me getting kicked out of the thread?

I mean, I'll go to CBR jail if that's what it takes.

Of course not. Just making a joke.

[Cody]

For example:
- Kenshiro literally kicking dudes so hard that they vanish into the sky team rocket style.
- Raoh and Toki throwing down, using specific strength based techniques rather than softer skill based techniques (just noting that the series differentiates), causing the mountain they were fighting on to shake and fall apart to the degree where Kenshiro was having to shatter building sized rocks by tapping them to stop them from falling on him while he watched the fight.
- Kenshiro and Souther shaking/damaging the entire massive fortress they were fighting nearby and the mountain it was standing on from the force of their hits on each other.
- Kenshiro and Lord Han razing a multistory castle to its foundations and below into the bedrock mostly by dint of throwing hands and suplexing each other through it.
- Kenshiro lifting gigantic rocks above his head with little effort.
- Kenshiro smashing a giant cyborg guy through the walls of a nuclear bunker by punching him.

So in other words; Kenshiro and co can hit harder than they can lift, and don't need to cause too much collateral, but Goku and co do because...........reasons.

Val is noted as being an aberration in the setting he resides in, it's practically a memetic thing that his feats don't make that much sense if you think about them for more than a few seconds.

So you have two characters who can do things with their kung fu skills that don't make sense to you, but one is okay, yet the other isn't.....kay

It is inkeeping with the spirit of the text that he can just do things like that. Also, of note, his actual power is the ability to sense weaknesses and pressure points in people and objects which allows him to hit with precision in a way that, again, bypasses conventional durability.

Which flies in the face of things like him bear hugging pre-crisis Superboy, his causing a tremor by stomping the ground, ripping arms off of class 100 bricks, etc. But even though that stuff is similar to what Nam, Yajirobe, and Yamcha were doing at their first appearances(obviously on a much lower scale), those stuff are okay, but the Goku stuff isn't for some reason, got it.

On the flip, Goku punches dudes real hard. That's pretty much the sum total of his arsenal when it comes to breaching physical durability with his hands and feet. These dudes, according to the thesis dictated above, have been able to be all but completely undamaged by planet-sundering energies going off in their faces in the Sayain Saga which means that Goku and everyone even like... freaking Cui is punching harder than planet destroying energies despite never showing any kind of physical strength on that level outside of "the inferred durability of a person this strong is blahblahblah,"

How would Cui, a guy who rivals a planet buster at best, punch with planet busting force? Vegeta had to charge up to dish out that type of damage, so how would his punches be at that level to harm class 100 bricks? Does Thor or post-crisis Superman need to hit with planet busting force to harm those who can tank planet busting attacks? No, so Cui wouldn't either. They don't hit that hard until later.

This is why I don't buy that they have that level of durability because there is nothing to show that they have that strength.

So here is whats annoying, none of this even remotely addresses anything in the quotes I provided. At all. DB characters have been proven and shown to channel ki into their physical attacks. There are enough references to this in the manga for this to be taken as a fact. Kid Goku vs king Piccolo, Goku vs Recoome, Vegeta explaining what Goku was doing as he was taking apart the Ginyu force, etc, are all things that show this.

[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;3793253]

The in-canon explanation for durability in DBZ is - as noted in the Goku vs Recoome fight - that superior offensive chi trumps defensive chi and allows damage to be delivered.

So right off the bat wrong. This was never even remotely a thing, as nothing in my posts, or the series, references this nonsense. It's been well established that they can tank as much as they can dish out. That's just a fact, not an opinion. I mean even SSJ3 Goku ignored a Kamehameha to the face by a comparably powerful Kid Buu.

Chi can used to enhance strength as noted with the full body weights sequence with Goku going Super Sayain to lift some 25 ton weights with ease where he struggled previously. This has been noted on the board as being extremely weird as Goku's strength feats mean that he's a lot stronger than this even in base form but that's neither here nor there.

Incorrect once again. Goku had been training with weights for an unspecified time before then, to the point that he was sweating when we see the scene. We know he can do more, due to Kid Goku pushing around boulders that weighed well over a hundred tons prior to even being trained by Roshi.

What this means is that, like Goku's strength, normally passive stats like durability can go up and down, which makes consistency hard to pin down.

Colossus has static durability stats, Superman has static durability stats. Goku and co by definition of how the system is supposed to work, do not.

They do, but only if they use their ki. That doesn't mean it's only resistent to ki, like you're clearly pushing here.

Frieza surviving Namek exploding because, whether he was aware of it or not, his durability is tied to his level of chi

Except it isn't, as has been described to you. He isn't using ki to enhance his stats at that point of the series, those are his base physical stats, much like Supermans physical stats are his. This was shown to you in the quotes above.

[Cody]

and, post being cut in half and having been given enough power to live on, blasted it out at Goku and then getting his **** blasted by Goku again he should have been in no state to survive much of anything so I honestly would file that under SMvsFL because he got hurt by attacks that did so much less when at a higher level of power.

Right, ruling things SMvFL because you just don't like them is not how things work here. You have a scan in one of the quotes above that explain these guys aren't using ki to enhance themselves, they are mutants who are naturally super strong, tough, and fast. It isn't SMvFL, it's a fact from the manga, just like the moon busting feats.

Given that, as I noted earlier, there is a /complete lack of strength feats/ that would indicate anything remotely approaching planetary level physical strength outside of Super - my view is that their ability to hurt one another is more about the level of chi they bring to an attack relative to their opponent rather than there being a set level of durability to overcome to hurt an opponent or the strength that said chi provides because there's nothing to support it.

While that is nice fanon, that still flies in the face of showings and statements of the characters actively putting their all into their physical blows, especially when they state as much. You are basically arguing with canon now.

Already addressed above.

No you didn't. You tried to dismiss it despite being contradicted by the manga, that is not addressing points.

Cell got his head blown off by planetary level attacks more than once and survived through dint of regeneration.

There is no reason to believe those attacks were solely planet busting and it's absurd you would even argue that. First form Frieza was a casual planet buster. Now you're saying someone who is astronomically tougher than final form frieza, was being hurt by attacks that first form Frieza can dish out casually.

Frieza surviving Namek has so many weird facets that I class it as SMvsFL as noted above and neither 17 or 18 ever took a planet busting explosion to the face so that's not a point.

Honestly it's getting to the point where you are just calling "SMvFL!!" at everything you don't like, even when there is a reasonable explanation for it. Frieza survived Namek because he is a mutant with freakish physical stats. We know Vegeta was lashing out planet destroying energies at 18, because he said as much when he said he was actively trying to be careful not to accidentally blow up the planet while fighting her. Yet she ignored his best attacks and busted his arm.

- I don't think that DBZ characters can't bust planets, obviously. Late Frieza Saga

So you're just going to ignore Vegeta and first form Frieza attempt, and outright planet busting feats respectively?

My contention is that it's only specific focused techniques that allow them to access those levels of destruction.

They still need to have that level of energy within themselves in order to do it. If they have the energy, they can tank it and dish it out.

Radditz noted that Goku and Piccolo could make their power levels much higher than their normal states through technique and I think that holds true.

Which they have shown an ability to tank as well. Piccolo sent a charged up attack at teen Goku, and despite it wiping out the city, and mountain range on the island, it did absolutely nothing to him. Later you have stuff like Kid Buus kamehameha being shrugged off by Goku, both of which had the same level of power. The same rule would apply for earlier in the series, even if at a lower scale.

- I don't buy the whole compressed explosion things. Destructo Disc and Special Beam Cannon are exceptions to this as specific techniques that in text work on the compression theory but those also don't planet bust because they don't explode.

Because they are specific drilling attacks? First you make the argument that only specific abilities of theirs can bust planets, but somehow the reverse isn't true for attacks specifically made to pierce a single point and have more power than the attacks that blow up a planet?

I think that when a fighter sends out random blasts and the like, it does the damage that we see it do. Frieza Saga era Frieza and Goku are still in the healthy category that they are able to blow away small landmasses and the like with normal blasts and can reach into planet busting with techniques but I don't think they always put that level of power into every shot because why would they.

Because that is the type of power they would need to dish out in order to harm the likes of Frieza. By this logic again; Goku used the kkx20 kamehameha on Frieza. It's clear you agree that was well above planet busting attacks, yet Frieza was only slightly stung by it. That should tell you the level of damage required to harm someone like Frieza.

Physically, by the time of the Frieza Saga, Goku is like... Class... 60 - 70ish in terms of his strength feats.

That you choose to accept. But the reality is that just isn't the case. When the characters say they can channel ki into their physical blows, and can harm someone who is only stung by an attack that dwarfs anything first form Frieza can dish out, we know, just like with every other character in fiction that doesn't run into this problem.

He busts through small mountains easy enough, smacks people through islands and the like but those attacks hurt both him and Frieza when he takes them. This is how their strength is shown to be and it makes more sense for that to be the case rather than secretly everyone from Cui to Guldo is able to chill in exploding planets no issue.

So I am convinced you are just calling smvfl on feats you don't like, and dismissing those that you cant call smvfl on because they don't make sense to you, or just downright low balling the characters abilities just to suit your argument. It's been stated several times already that Frieza was not being harmed by anything Goku dished out prior to the kkx20 kamehameha. Frieza never once gave any indication that the attack that sent him through the island harmed him. That was in an english dub error, but the actual translation said Goku was the first in a while to get him dirty. He was not harmed by it, that's just a fact we know from the manga.

Your argument ignores what we have seen in the manga. The characters state they can channel ki into their attacks, and their physical attacks pierce through things, not shatter them. That is how martial arts heroes work, another example are the Saints from Saint Seiya. And again, how is Cui and Guldo able to chill in exploding planets with no issue? When did anyone even state this as a thing? Vegeta is a planet buster at best, so how are Cui and Guldo going to ignore planet destroying energies? Final form Frieza? Sure. Ginyu when he is at full? Sure. But no one at Saiyan saga levels would have any business ignoring planet destroying energies or hit with planet busting force.

[Cody]

This got a bit rambling but I hope it articulates my issues with the presentation of DBZ that people are putting forward.

It articulates that you are indeed confused yes.

That is to say, I don't think Toriyama was really that fussed with perfectly logical progression of powers.

And you think any manga and comic writer does? If that was all that was needed to disregard a feat then 90% of the feats showed in comics and manga should be nulled, not just Dragonballs.

He had a rough curve but I think he wanted to tell his story and have cool fight scenes. I'm not saying he's stupid or lacking for doing so it's just a thing that writers and artists do. The Light Grenade was about the scale of a nuke, the blast obliterates half the small island they are standing on and it made nuke style mushroom cloud way off in the distance over the horizon.

It also did literally nothing to Cell like I would have expected an attack of that scale to do to him but that's whatever.

It's also worth noting that Piccolo had expended a bunch of energy fighting #17 before that and had had Cell kind of beat his ass a bit before so he wouldn't have been in peak condition. I think that's what the technique did because that's literally what it did. I don't see why we apparently have to pretend that a blast that is like island busting+ is magically a planet buster when the series makes a whole point about "Watch out Vegeta, you'll accidentally the planet," when Vegeta does that in literally the next scene.

Yes Nik, a guy who saw teen Goku shrug off an island clearing attack, is only going to send out an island busting attack at Cell -_-. The series made that point to Vegeta, because Vegeta was pissed off and charging up a huge attack, so people were worried that the time bomb known as Vegeta, who has made it perfectly clear at that point that he only cared for himself and not the planet, was going to accidentally blow up the planet.

But again, this is less about what Z fighters can and can't do in terms of offence. I'm speaking about their perceived durability and how it doesn't make sense that their strength feats don't add up.

They do, you're just picking and choosing which feats you want to apply to fit your argument. Even Kid Gohan shattered a space pod shown to be so tough that it survives Nappas continent wrecking attack. There strength has always been ridiculous, even the fight with Frieza had mountains collapsing from the shockwaves Goku and Frieza were dishing out.

That doesn't bear out to me because you have pretend that everyone is holding back to an absurd degree for 90% of their fights. The conjecture is "Oh, everyone is compressing their attacks despite that not being a thing really outside of fanon," doesn't convince me because it flies in the face of feats being things people did on screen.

No, it just means they know how to control their aoes. We know this because of the types of attacks they can use, and how very situational they are. These guys can tank what they can dish out, so the only way to hurt them is to dish out at least a significant fraction of what they have within themselves.

My issue is more people saying; "Oh no, everyone can soak planet busters because no reason,"

You just don't like the reason given to you, so you want it voided.

EDIT: To remind people, because Arby not seeming to understand my objections to Roshi moon busting being problematic. The difference between blowing up a city and blowing up a planet is difference in scale on the order of billions.

No one is saying Nappa can blow up a planet. Your objection to Roshis moon busting has no merit to it because there isn't anything to contradict it. No one had shown that level of ki until near the end of Dragonball, nothing else contradicted that level of power. Especially not Piccolos, who was much more powerful than Roshi was at the point of the Saiyan saga. You don't like the feat because of it's implications. Yet you have yet to provide any contradicting statements, just reasons as to why you don't like it. The rules aren't set for your tastes Nik.

[Nik Hasta]

You are twisting my examples. I said it was "well in excess" of Tzar Bomba. Also ive dropped the moon busting if favor of simply trying to point out why ki compression is no more silly of an idea than compartmentalized durability condidering there is no direct stated evidence for either thing.

"Well in excess," does not equate to the billions of times over something would need to be to match something else but, as you've dropped the moon busting, it's a moot point.

I'm not arguing that they have compartmentalised durability. At least, I don't think I am. I'm more objecting to the assertion that DBZ characters punch with the force of planets exploding and suchlike because there's nothing in the text to support that level of strength. My position is highlighting the absurdity of claiming that they do have that kind of raw force when neither the vast majority of the offensive beam or physical strength feats support it.

Nappas attack created an enormous flare of light visible from deep space well beyond what any nuke could do. The shockwaves were (admittedly im shaking on the exact wording here) shaking the planet or the continent or whatever, and blowing debris around hundreds of miles away. I think him powering up later was also shaking people miles away, and causing crystal balls to short circuit. The simple fact that he powered up at all sort of implies that almost everyone past Raditz had some ki control even if they are lacking fine tuning such as sensing or suppression.

You would think that but Vegeta actually says to Nappa prior to the fight starting "Hey Nappa, lose the scouter. Humans can change their power levels so numbers are kind of pointless," The implication is that he and Nappa can't do that.

BTW the scans are here if you need them.

Nappa is weak. He did this with all the effort of smiling and raising his fingers. Do you believe he was capable with a gesture to be tossing out energy far in excess of what what say Zarbon did? Honestly, number 17 in SUPER never throws out energy with that sort of scale. Nappa can toss out more energy than 17 in Super now?

In a universe where certain techniques inherently can be compressed, i dont find it that crazy to extend the implications a little.

I acknowledge that there are inconsistencies. As noted, authors focus on story first rather than coherent power levels.

We both acknowledge that there are things that don't make sense, the difference is that you say that they are somehow making these mini-but-super-powerful explosions and secretly everyone post Vegeta is able to eat planet busting attacks with a wry smile despite precious few energy attacks showing that level of damage and their punches and kicks still being relevant somehow.

My question could be crushed down to, how far apart do you think their physical abilities are to the energy attacks they use to casually harm each other with? For example what class of strength were they at Raditz level compared to how powerful there energy attacks are?

Like the gap between them?

Their energy attacks certainly seem to vastly outstrip their physical abilities. That's kind of my point. If we conjecture that they have these whatever planet busting-ish attacks my position is that their strength feats do not stack up to indicate that they can do stuff on a planetary level with their bare hands.

And yet their hands remain relevant for some confusing reason.

Of course not. Just making a joke.

Just being sure, DBZ can be so fractious so I want to keep things calm and clean.

[Nik Hasta]

Wow, Cody jumped in with like a billion responses while I was typing.

The line by line stuff is a pain to response to so I'll write something broader.

Please hold. ^_^