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  1. #1
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    Default Toriko vs. Jin Mo-Ri vs. Son Goku

    The Combatants for this match are

    Toriko, the Gourmet Hunter

    Jin Mo-Ri, the Monkey King Reborn

    Son Goku, the Super Sayian (Specifically, the Son Goku from the Namek Arc)

    who wins?

  2. #2
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Huh. Not sure what got this closed earlier, but we are re-open for business!
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  3. #3
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    I think, in a rare turn of events, Goku might actually a bit out of his depth at the time of Namek Saga.

    Both Toriko and Mori have absolutely absurdly high physical stats. Like... Goku's best strength feat at this time was what... elbow checking Frieza through that island? That is literally kids stuff to Mori and Toriko. His only option is to try and blast them with energy attacks and... again, I'm not liking his chances given how both of his opponents have wildly more diverse options than he does.

    Toriko, assuming series end, is like... either lightspeed or a ridiculous fraction of it even without speculating about his potential to manipulate the back channel. Mori was dodging real lightning multiple story arcs ago and does stuff like blitz dudes who run across countries in an instant.

    To my mind this is Toriko vs Mori and I think I just about back the food hunter. The power curve took so many absurd jumps in the final sequence that I think Mori loses out.

    EDIT: Having reread most of the final battle of Toriko, I definitely think he takes it. There is some wild stuff in Toriko as a series. Midora is quite ridiculous in terms of his ability copying, massive regeneration and sheer offensive power. Mori could maybe get some wins if he immediately goes Jaebongchim x250,000, that was him being on the level "accidentally the planet" but then he has the rebound to deal with if Toriko lives past his limit.

    His absolute peak of power momentarily extinguished the Sun, which is pretty wild but that was Jaebongchim 250,000 + Borrowing power from Mori Hui (a skill he's never used again) and it was Kick of Imoogi + Blue Dragon Kick which is their respective strongest move. Toriko doesn't want to get hit by that but that's a big thing to pin your whole strategy on.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 07-10-2018 at 04:39 PM.
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  4. #4
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    Note that Namek arc also means Goku's got access to Super Sayian if that makes a difference

  5. #5
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    Note that Namek arc also means Goku's got access to Super Sayian if that makes a difference
    Given how fast and strong Toriko and Mori are at their respective peaks, I don't think it makes much of a difference. I can't think of a strength or speed feat that puts him in the range of Toriko. At Super Sayain he might be as fast as Mori was during the Ragnarok war - without him using Jaebongchim that is - which means he could... like... break his hands on Mori's absurd durability or get mobbed by clones or smashed up by Yeoui.

    Seriously, one really significant strength feat - Uriel in GoH is capable of holding back an entire planet flying at her by herself temporarily with raw strength. She attempts to lift Yeoui and with some effort gets it above her head. It's then revealed that what she lifted was a clone staff, since Mori can just make those at will, and he tosses her the real Yeoui to try and hold it. She catches it and the weight is so much that it tears her arms off at the elbow.

    Planetary level strength can't lift Yeoui and Mori swings that thing around with ease. He can manipulate its weight to make it easier but he regularly has shown that he just carries an absurdly heavy weapon around all the time. Goku does not want to get hit by him.

    Yeoui has also been used to smash multiple planets out of the solar system.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 07-11-2018 at 07:16 AM.
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  6. #6
    Fantastic Member Morning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    Note that Namek arc also means Goku's got access to Super Sayian if that makes a difference
    I dont think it does. He still gets blitzed and eaten by toriko. I don't know about the other guy.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Like... Goku's best strength feat at this time was what... elbow checking Frieza through that island?
    As an SSJ? He was manhandling Frieza when Frieza was only stung by a KKx20. Then Frieza powered up from there and Goku could still do more damage with his physical attacks than something like a KKx20. So his striking ability is up there where he maims guys who laugh off planet busting+ attacks.

    Toriko, assuming series end, is like... either lightspeed or a ridiculous fraction of it even without speculating about his potential to manipulate the back channel. Mori was dodging real lightning multiple story arcs ago and does stuff like blitz dudes who run across countries in an instant.[/QUOTE]

    Well Kid Goku was mentioned as having to move faster than lightning in order to compete with Popos training. Most of the speed is scaling from whenever a character moves so fast that they blitz the other. At max maybe a fraction of light by the time of Namek with SSJ? If the other two are near light then that would give them enough of the edge to blitz. But can they do so before Goku unleashes an aoe? Can they take KKx20 Kamehameha level attacks and above?

    I've read from other threads that Toriko characters typically dish out more than they can tank, is that true?
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  8. #8
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    As an SSJ? He was manhandling Frieza when Frieza was only stung by a KKx20. Then Frieza powered up from there and Goku could still do more damage with his physical attacks than something like a KKx20. So his striking ability is up there where he maims guys who laugh off planet busting+ attacks.
    Oh boy, time to get into how I think the ridiculous compartmentalised durability feats of DBZ are silly and inconsistent for the most part.

    For a start; no one at the time of the Namek Saga had "laughed off," a planet busting attack, implied or explicitly shown. Quite apart from the legitimacy of those feats, no one had done the thing you're saying unless I missing something huge.

    Second, Goku's strength feats - in terms of things he's actually done like busting things up and whatnot - are so laughably below Toriko that I don't think Goku could actually physically hurt him if he punched him hence why I think the only thing Goku has going for him in this fight is his energy game.

    What strength feats does Goku have that suggest he could rock with Mori, let alone Toriko?

    Well Kid Goku was mentioned as having to move faster than lightning in order to compete with Popos training. Most of the speed is scaling from whenever a character moves so fast that they blitz the other. At max maybe a fraction of light by the time of Namek with SSJ? If the other two are near light then that would give them enough of the edge to blitz. But can they do so before Goku unleashes an aoe? Can they take KKx20 Kamehameha level attacks and above?
    I would argue that they are more than fast enough to blitz him and have offensive power absurdly beyond what Goku has been shown to deal with at this point in his development.

    Even without their normal gross offensive power, they could both just gimmick him; Mori just pressure points Goku and his blood explodes out of him or Toriko hits him with Mugen Kugi punch and he's just being punched by Class 100 energy shockwaves until he explodes and there's nothing much he can do about it.

    Or Mori Yeoui's him in the phase, in which case he is super dead. Or Toriko cuts him half with a Jet Knife and he is likewise hecka dead.

    I've read from other threads that Toriko characters typically dish out more than they can tank, is that true?
    That's... kind of true... ish? Only in that they hit ridiculously hard, doing things like accidentally a gas giant planet and such. They have eaten attacks that would have destroyed an earth size planet and above with minimal damage and Toriko and others have regeneration to offset most damage taken.
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  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Oh boy, time to get into how I think the ridiculous compartmentalised durability feats of DBZ are silly and inconsistent for the most part.
    It's been a thing now for years that they can tank as much as they can dish out -regardless of physical or ki-, even prior to wipe that they can tank what they can dish out. There isn't anything "inconsistent" about their showings, something Hazard, abmccray, and I have went in depth about several times across soo many threads that, I'm sorry, but is starting to get a little aggravating when someone who has been here for years(and thus saw those posts but never once said anything about it then), says otherwise, and then we have to restart the whole thing again. I mean, maybe I am misunderstanding something here and you aren't saying they can tank ki better than they can tank their physical attacks, but I am guessing that isn't the case.

    For a start; no one at the time of the Namek Saga had "laughed off," a planet busting attack, implied or explicitly shown. Quite apart from the legitimacy of those feats, no one had done the thing you're saying unless I missing something huge.
    You are actually. Goku over powered Vegeta attempt to blow up the planet with a Kamehameha. All that did was piss Vegeta off despite it over powering his attack. Then there was Piccolo stating Vegeta was going to bust Namek with his attack(and at that point he was much stronger than first form Frieza himself)that he sent out at Frieza, to which the guy booted it into space with no difficulty.

    We know that a blood lusted final form Friezas death beam did f all on a SSJ Goku, where else the guy casually busted a planet in his first form.

    Second, Goku's strength feats - in terms of things he's actually done like busting things up and whatnot - are so laughably below Toriko that I don't think Goku could actually physically hurt him if he punched him hence why I think the only thing Goku has going for him in this fight is his energy game.

    What strength feats does Goku have that suggest he could rock with Mori, let alone Toriko?
    I've already stated why. He was maiming the likes of Frieza, who we know is a freak of nature. Him and the rest of his army are mutants who are naturally inclined in energy output, but Frieza doesn't know how to control it until much later. Frieza is a guy who, despite having no energy, having half his face blown off, and sliced into several pieces, flat out ignored Namek blowing up while he was at ground zero. Gokus attacks would need to be beyond that, and the type of thing the Death Star could do in order to even harm him. Again, this is the same guy who was only slightly stung by a KKx20 Kamehameha. Are you honestly saying Gokus most powerful attack at that point would be below first form Friezas casual planet busting attack that he used to off planet Vegeta? And if so, based on what? Are you really going to argue that SSJ Goku somehow can't dish out as much energy as first form Frieza, yet still able to beat final form Frieza?


    I would argue that they are more than fast enough to blitz him and have offensive power absurdly beyond what Goku has been shown to deal with at this point in his development.
    Can they dish out the same amount of output as First form Frieza could casually when he casually blew up planet Vegeta? What about those who are several orders of magnitude above that(final form Frieza and Goku)?

    Even without their normal gross offensive power, they could both just gimmick him; Mori just pressure points Goku and his blood explodes out of him or Toriko hits him with Mugen Kugi punch and he's just being punched by Class 100 energy shockwaves until he explodes and there's nothing much he can do about it.
    Whats the toughest thing this worked on?

    Or Mori Yeoui's him in the phase, in which case he is super dead. Or Toriko cuts him half with a Jet Knife and he is likewise hecka dead.
    Personally, I think from what you've said puts them on the same speed as SSJ Goku, and that's if we go by scaling from whenever a character appears invisible to another in DB, which would involve scaling. Obviously you probably will take issues with that because you're arguing against this character winning, and I really don't have the time to get into that anytime soon, so lets assume they can do this in a blitz for arguments sake, this way we don't need to get into a speed debate.

    So "hypothetically" speaking, if they were roughly the same speed, then how would the fight go down, since Goku can use his gimmicks(destructo disc, solar flare, etc) himself?

    That's... kind of true... ish? Only in that they hit ridiculously hard, doing things like accidentally a gas giant planet and such. They have eaten attacks that would have destroyed an earth size planet and above with minimal damage and Toriko and others have regeneration to offset most damage taken.
    So they probably can't shrug off, or tank anything Goku can dish out.
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  10. #10
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    It's been a thing now for years that they can tank as much as they can dish out -regardless of physical or ki-, even prior to wipe that they can tank what they can dish out. There isn't anything "inconsistent" about their showings, something Hazard, abmccray, and I have went in depth about several times across soo many threads that, I'm sorry, but is starting to get a little aggravating when someone who has been here for years(and thus saw those posts but never once said anything about it then), says otherwise, and then we have to restart the whole thing again. I mean, maybe I am misunderstanding something here and you aren't saying they can tank ki better than they can tank their physical attacks, but I am guessing that isn't the case.
    Dude, I was there. I argued against it at the time and I have continued to do so when I end up in DBZ threads. I have consistently felt and been very vocal about my view that DBZ durability as a whole doesn't make much sense. It's a bit disingenuous to pretend that there isn't dissent when I'm the one who has been dissenting.

    To get into it a little; On the one hand, you have dudes taking hits from beams that, despite basically nothing apart from statements reinforcing it, should waste planets but then punches from dudes with strength feats that radically below that threshold work on them.

    You have Frieza being like "I'm drained of all energy and physically in pieces but I'll live through an exploding planet off-screen," but then Goku can hurt him with his normal-ass punches when he's at his peak of his power and, by the logic of the series, should be stronger.

    You then have Vegeta at SSJ, a guy who wipes his butt with Frieza, getting his arm broken by #18 and generally messed up by beings that have scratch zero feats of strength to suggest that they can mess with planetary stuff.

    In fact, as you note here...

    You are actually. Goku over powered Vegeta attempt to blow up the planet with a Kamehameha. All that did was piss Vegeta off despite it over powering his attack.

    Then there was Piccolo stating Vegeta was going to bust Namek with his attack(and at that point he was much stronger than first form Frieza himself)that he sent out at Frieza, to which the guy booted it into space with no difficulty.

    We know that a blood lusted final form Friezas death beam did f all on a SSJ Goku, where else the guy casually busted a planet in his first form.

    I've already stated why. He was maiming the likes of Frieza, who we know is a freak of nature. Him and the rest of his army are mutants who are naturally inclined in energy output, but Frieza doesn't know how to control it until much later. Frieza is a guy who, despite having no energy, having half his face blown off, and sliced into several pieces, flat out ignored Namek blowing up while he was at ground zero. Gokus attacks would need to be beyond that, and the type of thing the Death Star could do in order to even harm him. Again, this is the same guy who was only slightly stung by a KKx20 Kamehameha. Are you honestly saying Gokus most powerful attack at that point would be below first form Friezas casual planet busting attack that he used to off planet Vegeta? And if so, based on what? Are you really going to argue that SSJ Goku somehow can't dish out as much energy as first form Frieza, yet still able to beat final form Frieza?
    ...the logical your postion is that Goku punches with /more force/ than is required to blow up a planet as far back as the Sayain Saga.

    Forgive me but I don't buy that. Never have done. It's asinine and I don't think it is inkeeping with the spirit in which the text is meant to be read.

    To restate my position on DBZ as a whole, I don't buy the concept that 'every blast that they throw out from like Cell Saga on in is actually some kind of ridiculous hyper compressed planet buster, ergo everyone can mess with planets despite nobody showing it ever.' For me that ignores that DBZ was and is a kung fu battle manga where punches and kicks are meant to be relevant. It's not until you get to the Buu Saga that you get legitimate point and click planet busting.

    For the majority of the series; my view is that specific high power techniques threaten the planet and, when people get hit by them, they are hurt by them.

    Perfect Cell versus Vegeta's Final Flash - meant to be a threat to the planet, Cell was ignoring everything that was happening yet that blew away half his torso. Perfect Cell versus the warp Kamehameha, same deal except it blew most of his top half off. Kid Buu being on exploding planets, blew himself up and had to regenerate from it. The Sayains and their ilk have always been threatened by planets being blown up because, up until the goofiness that is Super, their durability did not cover it to my mind.

    I can't in good faith argue from the position that the Sayains are ten billion times stronger than the text shows them to consistently be. If you want to take the view that actually everyone and their mother is planet busting with my random-ass punches since the Sayain Saga, then be my guest. In which case, by simple scaling Goku would likely win because the other two would be hardpressed to hurt this lol!planet busting level durability+++ schtick.

    But I don't buy it.

    Can they dish out the same amount of output as First form Frieza could casually when he casually blew up planet Vegeta? What about those who are several orders of magnitude above that(final form Frieza and Goku?
    Can they bust up earth-sized planets? Yes, quite easily. Toriko has bits that are dedicated to "you can't do those attacks, you'll obliterate the small portion of this supergiant planet that is the earth," and they have shielding that section of the planet [the entire normal human earth] from harm. They have mountains forged of superdense gravity material that is roughly the size of a planet being smashed in one hit.

    As far as orders of magnitude up, Toriko by the end of it is at a level of power where he's able to threaten the entire Toriko-Earth planet which is much larger than the real world earth. I don't see him having any problem with hurting Goku.

    Whats the toughest thing this worked on?
    The pressure points or Mugen Kugi? The former worked on gods, which equate to superpowered beings who threaten countries with their casual attacks, dash across continents in split seconds and general threaten the planet. The latter didn't work on one of the Eight Kings [Bambina] and didn't work on Incomplete Neo [unevolved form of your final boss]. It worked on everything else it hit.

    Personally, I think from what you've said puts them on the same speed as SSJ Goku, and that's if we go by scaling from whenever a character appears invisible to another in DB, which would involve scaling. Obviously you probably will take issues with that because you're arguing against this character winning, and I really don't have the time to get into that anytime soon, so lets assume they can do this in a blitz for arguments sake, this way we don't need to get into a speed debate.

    So "hypothetically" speaking, if they were roughly the same speed, then how would the fight go down, since Goku can use his gimmicks(destructo disc, solar flare, etc) himself?
    That's one gimmick which I wouldn't give much hope of working. Solar flare wouldn't work on Toriko or Mori in the first place I don't think. The former doesn't need to see to fight effectively, mostly getting stuff done by scent and his appetite demons would manifest to defend him. Also Food Luck which is, kind of ridiculous get out of jail free card.

    Mori might be more susceptible but he has the eyes of the eight trigrams furnace which let him see through illusions which might cover it and he was able to chill out in the literal real sun without issue so I'd be dubious on it working that well. He could likewise summon clones on reaction and then Goku has to fight the clones instead of finishing him. He's done the whole kiwami no jutsu thing enough times.

    So they probably can't shrug off, or tank anything Goku can dish out.
    Toriko can tank planet busting hits with minimal damage. Goku, at this point in the story, is only reaching that level with his best and most powerful techniques. He'll be fine with like 95% of his arsenal.

    Mori is less okay but his offensive power far outstrips his durability.
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  11. #11
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Kid Buu being on exploding planets, blew himself up and had to regenerate from it.
    To be fair, Kid Buu was kinda...goopy. A lot could blow the Buus apart, coming back together was their shtick.
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  12. #12

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    Yes. God yes. I have missed DBZ discussions of this nature so much. ^_^
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  13. #13
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    My only issue with that argument Nik, is it tends to get ignored too selectively. For example, in comics we often get characters that are able to consistently harm Superman, Thor, or other class 100's and yet never bust a country/moon/planet/whatever the character they harm is at. These characters are given damage/durability feats on that level even without having done anything more that low scale destruction. Doomsday being a prime example, I can't recall him ever busting a planet, yet I don't think people have ever taken issue with him harming Superman or beings in his level. IIRC Speed and esoterics tend to be the biggest issues with Doomsdays wins around here.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    My only issue with that argument Nik, is it tends to get ignored too selectively. For example, in comics we often get characters that are able to consistently harm Superman, Thor, or other class 100's and yet never bust a country/moon/planet/whatever the character they harm is at. These characters are given damage/durability feats on that level even without having done anything more that low scale destruction. Doomsday being a prime example, I can't recall him ever busting a planet, yet I don't think people have ever taken issue with him harming Superman or beings in his level. IIRC Speed and esoterics tend to be the biggest issues with Doomsdays wins around here.
    This is pretty much my take as well.

    Here is the absurdly frustrating thing with DBZ: for all of its awesomness, it's made by a guy who has a flare for the whimsical. We seldom get in depth explanations for things.

    Compartmentalized durability, hyper compressed ki blasts, etc are all just ones own personal head canon.

    My personal head canon is that blasts are hyper compressed to a smaller area to avoid massive fallout or planetary destruction.

    My "proof" as flimsy as it may be is thus: in season one of Dragon Ball, not even Z, Roshi blows up a mountain. Some brief training later and he blows up a moon. Piccolo with casual and contemptuous ease blows up a moon. Raditz and Piccolo both take turns vaporizing mountain ranges. A headbutt from Gohan (a non ki attack) does more damage to Raditz than a charged kamehameha. First Form Frieza can casually obliterate a planet. The list goes on.

    Basically, they have been tossing out planet threatening attacks since DB (extinction level events at minimum) and they are so MANY orders of magnitude above that later.

    But again. This is my own personal interpretation. Toriyama never once explained one way or the other iirc
    Last edited by The Arbiter; 07-16-2018 at 07:16 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Regarding the debate of DBZ durability, I do have one possible explanation for it. Which I will grant is not perfect, but when else will it be relevent to a discussion?

    If we take Ressurection F as canon (which is a bit of a stretch, I recognize, but bare with me) then that would mean that DBZ durability is explicitly variable. In other words, DBZ characters are inherently more vulnerable to attacks that they don't see coming than they are to attacks they see coming. This would imply that DBZ character have to raise their key defenses in order to be able to tank hits.

    If we accept that as true, then there is then the possibility that to tank higher scale hits, DBZ characters must raise their "Defenses" to an even higher level than they have them in normal combat, in order to defend against higher scale attacks. The reason that attacks like the Final Flash and Warp Kamehameha do so much visible damage would be because Cell didn't raise his defenses high enough in time to no sell it.

    As for why they don't keep their defenses up to the highest every time, that could be because its prohibitively exhaustive

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