What the Walmart Distribution means to DC Comics and the future market

[millernumber1]

Yes, I fully agree with you here in both their choice of going for quality and in that this is an endemic issue. However, I believe DC could and should have chosen to do the extra editorial work, and maybe even go out of their way to commission more short standalone stories. Right now, they've opened up the prospect of a huge new market but done very little adjust to the opportunities of that market.

Note that I didn't think of Birds of Prey as one of the Giant titles but to raid it—and its characters—frequently for backup stories in the Batman title. (Or perhaps we're using "title" in different ways here.)

And yes, I know of the meme of girls reading boy's stuff but not vice versa. But here's the thing. First you need to market both to kids and to parents, and there a Wonder Woman title helps. Second, nowadays there are great comics with female leads: I'm thinking Lumberjanes, Ms Marvel, Monstress, Rat Queens, and so on. If all DC offers in the mass market is Superman and Batman, they will loose out to those among girls. Third, you also have the big opening of girls raiding their brother's comic books and finding good Supergirl or Black Canary stories. For titles like these, you want some variety in contents.

But instead they get cheesecake Catwoman, Poison Ivy, and Harley Quinn under plenty of male gaze.

This is especially important regarding Wonder Woman, who sailed up on a huge surge of popularity and interest after the movie, but which has largely been squandered by DC.

Totally agree that DC should have done the editorial work. But Didio has always been obsessed with serials and floppies (look at the intro to Hush). Plus...almost all of the stories picked are from Didio's tenure as EIC, I believe.

I think I'm following - You're saying instead of, say, Nightwing, do Birds of Prey as a reprint. (Though as I said, they have Harley Quinn to feature a female lead).

I should also mention that DC is focusing pretty hard on the female audience with DC Super Hero Girls.

Completely agree that Wonder Woman has been squandered by DC after the film. Largely by keeping the title twice a month so that they lose Rucka and got endless fill in about Diana's freaking brother. ARG.

[kjn]

I think I'm following - You're saying instead of, say, Nightwing, do Birds of Prey as a reprint. (Though as I said, they have Harley Quinn to feature a female lead).

Not necessarily, and I didn't particularly like the Harley Quinn story we got here as an intro to her—she's in her violence is funny mode, and that's a turnoff for me. I believe Harley is at her best with her self-aware, wacky and funny stories, like the Little Black Book. They are also standalone and can be used as filler.

If we take the Batman title, they could have used an original Batman standalone story, one classic Nightwing story (using the "DC classics" moniker where they can freely pick stories from DC history), Quarantine from Birds of Prey, and one Batman reprint. For Harley Quinn, I also think picking up the Little Black Book stories make a lot of sense.

Not saying it needs to be exactly that lineup, but shorter stories and more women.

And I do believe the long stories will hurt sales down the line. It will take six months to a year to go through all the stories in the opening Batman. A six-part serial can make sense if it is released weekly to an invested audience; not when it's a monthly trying to reach a new one.

I should also mention that DC is focusing pretty hard on the female audience with DC Super Hero Girls.

Yeah, but that's aimed at a younger audience and does not directly lead to future comic book readers. The Walmart books could help to bridge that gap.

[millernumber1]

Not necessarily, and I didn't particularly like the Harley Quinn story we got here as an intro to her—she's in her violence is funny mode, and that's a turnoff for me. I believe Harley is at her best with her self-aware, wacky and funny stories, like the Little Black Book. They are also standalone and can be used as filler.

If we take the Batman title, they could have used an original Batman standalone story, one classic Nightwing story (using the "DC classics" moniker where they can freely pick stories from DC history), Quarantine from Birds of Prey, and one Batman reprint. For Harley Quinn, I also think picking up the Little Black Book stories make a lot of sense.

Not saying it needs to be exactly that lineup, but shorter stories and more women.

And I do believe the long stories will hurt sales down the line. It will take six months to a year to go through all the stories in the opening Batman. A six-part serial can make sense if it is released weekly to an invested audience; not when it's a monthly trying to reach a new one.

Yeah, but that's aimed at a younger audience and does not directly lead to future comic book readers. The Walmart books could help to bridge that gap.

I actually agree about the Harley Quinn story - I don't find "kicking the head off of someone for a joke" appealing in any way, and I'm a guy, so I think it's misjudged as an "entry comic." However, I forgot that Palmiotti and Connor join Loeb and Johns in the creators who are massively overrepresented in these collections. The problem with Little Black Book is that those are oversized, aren't they? I think they're a much better choice, and maybe you could cut them into pieces and thus stretch out the material, but that's always awkward, as I recall when they did that for inventory issues in digital projects like Sensation Comics Featuring Wonder Woman.

As far as long stories hurting the line - I think it's a double edged sword. If you're really trying to get new people into the LCS, long stories are what they're mostly going to get in the LCS market. So you could say that you're prefiltering, or "correctly setting expectations." I'm on your side here, since I think one-shots or single issue arcs should be much more common, with the serial element being a more background piece of the storytelling. But the pressure from the Netflix model is corrupting all mediums (and I honestly think it doesn't work that well for Netflix, since those shows are always too long for the story they're trying to tell, and would benefit immensely from a more case of the week approach too).

I don't quite follow how DC Super Hero Girls don't lead to future comic book readers?

[skyvolt2000]

Yes, I fully agree with you here in both their choice of going for quality and in that this is an endemic issue. However, I believe DC could and should have chosen to do the extra editorial work, and maybe even go out of their way to commission more short standalone stories. Right now, they've opened up the prospect of a huge new market but done very little adjust to the opportunities of that market.

DC wants the praise but not the WORK when it comes to folks not named Batman & Superman.
It's why Cyborg has failed. There are tons of little things that have to be done. Like some of the stuff you listed.

Totally agree that DC should have done the editorial work. But Didio has always been obsessed with serials and floppies (look at the intro to Hush). Plus...almost all of the stories picked are from Didio's tenure as EIC, I believe.
I think I'm following - You're saying instead of, say, Nightwing, do Birds of Prey as a reprint. (Though as I said, they have Harley Quinn to feature a female lead).

Completely agree that Wonder Woman has been squandered by DC after the film. Largely by keeping the title twice a month so that they lose Rucka and got endless fill in about Diana's freaking brother. ARG.

Dan is like Vince McMahon-he is DETERMINED to shove his pets down everyone's throats like Vince does with Roman Reigns. To the determent of the company.

And as CM Punk said " And I understand that... that Vince McMahon's gonna make money despite himself... he's a millionaire who should be a billionaire... you know why he's not a billionaire? It's because he surrounds himself with glad-handing nonsensical [censored] yes-men like John Lauranitis, who's gonna tell him everything he wants to hear... "

DC is like the WWE-so concerned with shoving PETS down everyone's throats-they forget to pay attention to everyone else you alienate.
So while in their case they are number one-they are allowing the competition to grow.

I think the point KJN is making you are going to need MORE than Harley & Wonder Woman to counter all the other books with female leads. WW & Harley can't counter what Riri, Moon Girl, Ms Marvel, America. Monstress, Lumberjanes, Ray Queens, Saga & Princess girls at Action Lab-books with ladies of color as leads. And no Jessica Cruz can't be the token. Where is Vixen, Katanna, Natasha Irons, Silencer & Bumblebee at? BEYOND DC Super Hero Girls.

Same when looking at POC-a complaint with these book is DC SO WHITE. 4 books that count for 400 pages and the only POC lead book was Sideways? Not Duke? Not Damian Wayne? Not Jason Rusch? Not Jaime Reyes? Not one of the Batwings? Cyborg? Jessica? Simon? Duke's 3 part mini would have fit in fine in Batman. As with the ladies-plenty of POC lead books are popping up.

Wonder Woman had a hit movie and what did DC do???

Panther killed the box office as the third highest grossing movie of all time. We got two spinoff minis and more Black Panther toys.
Heck Shuri's book is NOT EVEN OUT yet but the trade will be out in April 2019. Preorders on Amazon have that book ranked HIGHER than every New Age Hero book trade.
Wakanda Forever beats all of them too (and it stinks). And they both beat BATMAN-yes Trey-a book with Batman doesn't get sales (at least trade) Batman & The Signal.

Dc is content with that they have and screw everything else. Problem is everyone else is not content.

If Black Panther's success or the success of books like Ms marvel, Lumberjanes and Lion Forge are not enough to scare them into doing something-I don't know what will.

You got Wal-Mart-you have access to EVERYBODY. It's time for more variety beyond PETS and cheesecake art.

[kjn]

The problem with Little Black Book is that those are oversized, aren't they? I think they're a much better choice, and maybe you could cut them into pieces and thus stretch out the material, but that's always awkward, as I recall when they did that for inventory issues in digital projects like Sensation Comics Featuring Wonder Woman.

*checks* Yeah, they're circa ~38 pages, not 25. Still doable, but it's an bother, especially since I believe they function best as fully self-contained stories.

As far as long stories hurting the line - I think it's a double edged sword. If you're really trying to get new people into the LCS, long stories are what they're mostly going to get in the LCS market. So you could say that you're prefiltering, or "correctly setting expectations." I'm on your side here, since I think one-shots or single issue arcs should be much more common, with the serial element being a more background piece of the storytelling. But the pressure from the Netflix model is corrupting all mediums (and I honestly think it doesn't work that well for Netflix, since those shows are always too long for the story they're trying to tell, and would benefit immensely from a more case of the week approach too).

The damage doesn't really come from the long stories in and of themselves. But when every story in Giant Batman #4 is #4 of X in a series, I see very little chance of it picking up new readers, or of the new readers to stay along. Having one long ongoing and one or two short ones in each issue shouldn't be a problem, though. That also gives more flexibility regarding content. Spam every Walmart issue with an Aquaman tie-in story when his movie comes out, and do the same with Shazam…

Also, the push towards longer arcs have been going on for a long time, it's not only Netflix's fault. Part of it is because of more demand for detail and background, part of it is that storytelling in comics have become more frontloaded where background detail is covered early rather than filled in later, and part of it is the focus on the steady return customers rather than the casual ones. Marston had Steve Trevor crash on page 1 of Wonder Woman; no modern writer has managed to even come close.

I don't quite follow how DC Super Hero Girls don't lead to future comic book readers?

More that there is a rather large step for a 10-year-old girl from the TV screen to the local comic shop (probably also filled with middle-aged dudes). Much easier if there is a Wonder Woman title to pick up at Walmart, or you can get a Batgirl or Supergirl fix with the Batman or Superman titles.

[millernumber1]

The damage doesn't really come from the long stories in and of themselves. But when every story in Giant Batman #4 is #4 of X in a series, I see very little chance of it picking up new readers, or of the new readers to stay along. Having one long ongoing and one or two short ones in each issue shouldn't be a problem, though. That also gives more flexibility regarding content. Spam every Walmart issue with an Aquaman tie-in story when his movie comes out, and do the same with Shazam…

Also, the push towards longer arcs have been going on for a long time, it's not only Netflix's fault. Part of it is because of more demand for detail and background, part of it is that storytelling in comics have become more frontloaded where background detail is covered early rather than filled in later, and part of it is the focus on the steady return customers rather than the casual ones. Marston had Steve Trevor crash on page 1 of Wonder Woman; no modern writer has managed to even come close.

More that there is a rather large step for a 10-year-old girl from the TV screen to the local comic shop (probably also filled with middle-aged dudes). Much easier if there is a Wonder Woman title to pick up at Walmart, or you can get a Batgirl or Supergirl fix with the Batman or Superman titles.

I mean, if we're going for "what we would do with the DC Walmart Giants", obviously, we'd all have very different answers. We both agree that smaller stories (1 to 2 parts as the general rule, instead of 6 to 12 parts as DC is explicitly shooting for right now) is a better idea, but right now, not expected.

As for Aquaman, they're doing an Aquaman serialization right now, so I think they're planning for that. (And as someone who didn't read Aquaman until Rebirth, I'm actually enjoying the Aquaman serial, which I think is reprinting the n52 series.)

And I agree, serialization really went out of control in the early 2000s, well before Netflix. I was just pointing out that Netflix's dominance indicates that there's no push in the other (more one-shot or case of the week) direction right now from any thing. Even movies, with "francises" and "cinematic universes" are going the other direction.

Bryan Q. Miller had Steve crash on the first page of his Wonder Woman arc from Smallville Season 11.

Do you think that a 10-year-old boy would find it easier to go from the TV to a comic shop? A teen boy, certainly, but that age? I think DC is focusing more on the book market for the young readers, though - I see tons of little trades or OGN for DC Super Hero Girls in Barnes and Noble to go with the toys.

[kjn]

Bryan Q. Miller had Steve crash on the first page of his Wonder Woman arc from Smallville Season 11.

Or it took him 10 seasons to get there :-)

Do you think that a 10-year-old boy would find it easier to go from the TV to a comic shop? A teen boy, certainly, but that age? I think DC is focusing more on the book market for the young readers, though - I see tons of little trades or OGN for DC Super Hero Girls in Barnes and Noble to go with the toys.

I think a parent would find it easier to bring a 10-year-old boy to the local comic book store than bringing a girl of the same age. Especially if they don't know anything about the store.

[millernumber1]

I think a parent would find it easier to bring a 10-year-old boy to the local comic book store than bringing a girl of the same age. Especially if they don't know anything about the store.

I'm not sure I really follow that. But like I've said before, my LCS is pretty kid friendly.

In the state where I grew up, the closest LCS was definitely not kid friendly. Kind of a Hot Topic but dirtier vibe.

[kjn]

I'm not sure I really follow that. But like I've said before, my LCS is pretty kid friendly.

In the state where I grew up, the closest LCS was definitely not kid friendly. Kind of a Hot Topic but dirtier vibe.

It's rather simple. There are lots of prejudices about comic book stores, among them that there are lots of, lets say, insufficiently socialised men there. I can see a lot of parents being unsure about bringing a boy there, but even more a girl given that superhero comics still are viewed as a boy's hobby, and simple fear. And I've heard horror stories about how girls have been "welcomed" to comic book stores.

Now, for my local science fiction bookstores (they also have comics), I have never had any qualms about bringing my daughter there. But I know a lot of the staff—heck, I'm on first-name basis with both their past and current CEOs—and they have gone out of their way to build a welcoming, safe, and friendly atmosphere.

[kingaliencracker]

Printing costs is not the problem. That is nominal and it could be a lot less. Distribution is a bigger problem

Well, we'll never go back to the newsstand model, as that's a dying model in of itself and they will never carry comic books again.

Walmart is the closest you'll get, and it's an unusual marketing strategy that I still maintain will only cater to the speculator market. I think we've seen that with the comics that have been released through Walmart so far.

As far as distribution, you can't get any quicker, easier, or efficient than Comixology. Yet, and has been discussed, digital sales lag far behind paper sales, even though paper sales are a dwindling market themselves. I've been reading and collecting for 30 years, and I can tell you that based on my conversations with fans that's not really a long time compared to their experience. Yet, when I got into the medium 30 years ago we had new readers all the time, and it was rare to find someone who had been reading more than a few years.

The bottom line is that comic book CHARACTERS have never been more popular or more beloved. But the comic books themselves? There just isn't a large enough demand - and likely won't be again - to carry the medium indefinitely.

[mrbrklyn]

, it will fail.
It'll make a bunch of money, but it will sell mostly to the existing audience.

No - it is reaching a new audience

[mrbrklyn]

As far as distribution, you can't get any quicker, easier, or efficient than Comixology. Yet, and has been discussed, digital sales lag far behind paper sales, even though paper sales are a dwindling market themselves.

without the collecting and hording the physical paper, there is no business, IMO

[millernumber1]

without the collecting and hording the physical paper, there is no business, IMO

Didn't they say similar things about movies and music? Now, I'll grant you that comics are a lot closer to books (which have a tenacious hold on physical medium, despite the huge advantages and ease of access and price cuts of digital), but if they can ever get some kind of tablet revolution going, I think digital comics could really come into their own.

If not strangled but stupid pricing.

[kjn]

without the collecting and hording the physical paper, there is no business, IMO

Not necessarily. Look at the book market, where the hardcover/trade paperback market is still doing decently, but the massmarket paperback market is being gobbled up by the ebooks (note that it was troubled already when ebooks came along for various reasons). Or look at the movie industry: cinemas are starting to do OK again, but the consumer DVD market is being replaced by streaming and digital sales. To not speak of the music industry…

Of course there will remain paper comics, but the distribution system for floppies seems very fragile on the retailer level. (It's different in, say, Sweden, with a strong tradition of subscriptions.) The comics industry also struggle with finding ways to reach and find new, young readers. The Walmart deal is one attempt to do so, but IMO it is hobbled by editorial decisions on its content that runs counter to that.

[Carabas]

without the collecting and hording the physical paper, there is no business, IMO

Collecting and hording the physical paper just plain didn't happen back when America had a proper, real, mass medium comicbook industry.