Wonder Woman #50 - Spoilers & Discussion

[brettc1]

If you introduce a male supporting character in Wonder Woman and give him the equal amount of time that Lana or Lois might get in Superman, the alleged "rabid" Wonder Woman fanbase gets angry.

He's called Steve Trevor, dude. A lot of rabid WW fans and also movie goers like him just fine because he does share the spotlight with Diana without being given most of it like Robinson did with Jason.

understand that they don't want the strongest DC female superhero character to lose "airtime" or get overshadowed, but that consistent response, over and over, writer to writer, leads to a serious potential for problems in interesting storylines for DC. It shouldn't have to be that way.

Maybe it wouldn't be if there weren't a kind of ingrained thinking that Wonder Woman HAS to have a male of equal or greater power around to get the job done.

You want to see mansplaining. Sho Mr Robinson Batman mansplaining to Diana about how to deal with a race of aliens during the last volume. Oh, the Vegetative Injustice!

Now, I didn't like Jason as a PERSON much, but I'm not sure we were supposed to. He's no Lana Lang, Kara, or Lois Lane - he's a screw up, easily manipulated and gullible, but with a good heart in the end. So, I NEVER THOUGHT HE WAS TAKING AWAY THE SPOTLIGHT AS THE HERO OF THE BOOK. That actually impressed me - Robinson was trying to walk a tightrope given to him by Geoff Johns -- introduce a new MALE character to the Wonder Woman universe, give him powers, but don't have him eclipse Diana - let her be the hero he looks up to. I think Robinson did exactly that. The vest is interesting - it was meant for Diana and it would have made her clearly more powerful than Superman if she had it, and I still wonder if she may use it someday if a writer decides to go that way. However, for now, it gives Jason at least a fighting chance to survive life with the Dark Gods. It also leads to a potential storyline where Jason "grows up" and becomes a hero largely on his own, fighting them or at least guiding them to their universe. Maybe he really does become more of a "Jason and the Argonauts" like character as a result of that experience! Maybe he becomes a Knight-Errant who goes throughout the universe, helping people whenever they need it, but often getting sidetracked because of this need to help people coupled with (what seems to be) ADHD - easily distracted from his goals. In any case, at least having the "God Vest" helps him on that journey.

In the story that define the term, Ensign Mary Sue looks up to all the crew of Kirk's Enterprise.

But she's still a Mary Sue, and so is Jason.

By the way, one last point with respect to Jason "saving the day" in issue 50. That is the way it should have been, since he was "going away" after this storyline and according to the prophecy from Geoff Johns' storyline, Jason was destined to "save the day." So, Robinson did EXACTLY what he set out to do - bring that storyline to a place where the "prophecy" could be fulfilled. Did Diana do much? No. But, again, I've read many comics in which Spider-Man, Hulk, Superman, Batman, Iron Man, and other male characters have had another, secondary character, make the "sacrifice" to end the storyline, often while the hero is yelling "NOOOOOO!" Jane Foster is probably a bad example, since she WAS the main character in Thor for awhile, but she's the most obvious recent character to do that and it was Odinson who was screaming "NOOOOO!" I remember tons of secondary characters actually making the ULTIMATE sacrifice in many plotlines over the years to save the day - and one could argue sometimes that is why they exist, to sacrifice for the life and safety of the hero of the book. Perhaps the best example is Bucky Barnes - who in Marvel cannon was dead for 50 + years, before he was returned as Winter Soldier. Who can forget Captain America screaming at Bucky to "LET GO, LET GO!!!!"? In a kinda, sorta way, Jason is to Diana as Bucky was to Captain America.

Can't remember a four month story in Caps own book where Bucky is the who comes with the plan and implements the plan that outplays the Red Skull and Hydra while Cap swings ineffectual punches.

[Quasar's Bands]

He's called Steve Trevor, dude. A lot of rabid WW fans and also movie goers like him just fine because he does share the spotlight with Diana without being given most of it like Robinson did with Jason.




Maybe it wouldn't be if there weren't a kind of ingrained thinking that Wonder Woman HAS to have a male of equal or greater power around to get the job done.

You want to see mansplaining. Sho Mr Robinson Batman mansplaining to Diana about how to deal with a race of aliens during the last volume. Oh, the Vegetative Injustice!





In the story that define the term, Ensign Mary Sue looks up to all the crew of Kirk's Enterprise.

But she's still a Mary Sue, and so is Jason.





Can't remember a four month story in Caps own book where Bucky is the who comes with the plan and implements the plan that outplays the Red Skull and Hydra while Cap swings ineffectual punches.

That's because you aren't trying. I remember Cap being taken over by the Red Skull and others solving the problem. I remember MANY stories where the hero of the book was incapacitated, and he was saved by Lana or Lois or Tim and so on, and yes, the stories sometimes took months to resolve. You do a diservice to Wonder Woman in trying to claim other heroes have never faced similar situations and secondary characters weren't the focus for a few months. It's not true.

And by the way, as I said in my initial posting if you actually read the whole thing, Steve Trevor is really the ONLY significant male that has been used as a supporting character over the many years, with a few other potential love interests along the way. That's just sad. Male characters can have a blend of both multiple female and male secondary characters, but a female hero cannot? Stupid. Of course she can - she can have multiple men and women supporting characters in her storylines, and they can all be equally strong in character without being threatening to her spotlight. I do not envy WW writers that have to deal with such hypocracy and insecurities from such a loud contingency. It's almost as if those fans want WW issues to be less exciting and multifaceted than other comics. It's a problem multiple writers have mentioned, and an obvious one at that.

[brettc1]

That's because you aren't trying. I remember Cap being taken over by the Red Skull and others solving the problem. I remember MANY stories where the hero of the book was incapacitated, and he was saved by Lana or Lois or Tim and so on, and yes, the stories sometimes took months to resolve. You do a diservice to Wonder Woman in trying to claim other heroes have never faced similar situations and secondary characters weren't the focus for a few months. It's not true.

The place where your argument falls down is this.

Wonder Woman was NOT incapacitated. She was NOT possessed. She was NOT injured. She was NOT depowered.

She was, quite simply, shown to be incapable and outclassed. That is the disservice here.

[Agent Z]

How long have you been reading comics? This happens ALL THE TIME. I remember when Silk was introduced in Spider-Man, not too long ago. Spider-Man was there, and around, but SILK was essentially the main focus for several issues to flesh out her story and what was going on with her. The same thing is true for Robin (Jason), Robin (Tim), the second Batgirl (Cassandra) , Signal, etc. Batman was part of the story, but many, many issues were devoted to evolve these secondary characters into the comic book universe. I remember when Amadeus Cho essentially took over the Hulk, and that was BEFORE he was the modern Hulk, but Amadeus was building his character and gathering other heroes into a team to help Hulk. I remember when Hercules TOOK OVER the Hulk comic for a couple of years! This is a very, very common thing in comics, brettc1, and you are wrong to say that Superman has never had another character "lead" the book. During the entire Kandor arc several years ago, the Kandor Nightwing and Flamebird took over Action Comics, I believe, and we often saw more of Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane and General Lane than we did of Superman in his own title! These things happen with incredible frequency in comics, depending on the story arc, and it's a good thing - it helps develop storylines and avoid repetition.

Wonder Woman is one of my favorite titles and characters, and has been since Polly was retroactively introduced to have been the Golden Age Wonder Woman (so many years ago), but Robinson spoke truth to power when he spoke about a big part of her fanbase that seems to always know what is best and is hypercritical of writers, especially male writers. It's rather unfortunate, because it gets in the way of potentially interesting and diverse storylines and potential. I've always found that Wonder Woman is a great title for strong female secondary characters, but Steve has really been the single male supportive character (unless it was another potential love interest). Superman has Lana, Lois, Kara, Martha, as well as Pete, Jimmy, Jonathan, etc. So, you would think that the balance of male and female characters would be more equal in Wonder Woman, but it never has been. Why do you think that is? I think this whole Jason storyline and the "rabid fan base" response shows EXACTLY why that is. If you introduce a male supporting character in Wonder Woman and give him the equal amount of time that Lana or Lois might get in Superman, the alleged "rabid" Wonder Woman fanbase gets angry. I understand that they don't want the strongest DC female superhero character to lose "airtime" or get overshadowed, but that consistent response, over and over, writer to writer, leads to a serious potential for problems in interesting storylines for DC. It shouldn't have to be that way.

Perhaps the answer should be that that Wonder Woman be given TWO titles. I mean, Superman has both Superman and Action Comics, and Batman has both Detective Comics and Batman, so why shouldn't Wonder Woman have two ongoing titles -- one devoted to Wonder Woman always being front and center and never sharing the limelight with any other potential major character, to appease one group, and one devoted to a more balanced cast of characters made up of both women and men, like you frequently see in the Batman and Superman franchise, with WW still being the lead usually in her own book. My guess that would relieve a lot of these weird dynamics, and I'd be 100% supportive of both titles myself!

Now, I didn't like Jason as a PERSON much, but I'm not sure we were supposed to. He's no Lana Lang, Kara, or Lois Lane - he's a screw up, easily manipulated and gullible, but with a good heart in the end. So, I NEVER THOUGHT HE WAS TAKING AWAY THE SPOTLIGHT AS THE HERO OF THE BOOK. That actually impressed me - Robinson was trying to walk a tightrope given to him by Geoff Johns -- introduce a new MALE character to the Wonder Woman universe, give him powers, but don't have him eclipse Diana - let her be the hero he looks up to. I think Robinson did exactly that. The vest is interesting - it was meant for Diana and it would have made her clearly more powerful than Superman if she had it, and I still wonder if she may use it someday if a writer decides to go that way. However, for now, it gives Jason at least a fighting chance to survive life with the Dark Gods. It also leads to a potential storyline where Jason "grows up" and becomes a hero largely on his own, fighting them or at least guiding them to their universe. Maybe he really does become more of a "Jason and the Argonauts" like character as a result of that experience! Maybe he becomes a Knight-Errant who goes throughout the universe, helping people whenever they need it, but often getting sidetracked because of this need to help people coupled with (what seems to be) ADHD - easily distracted from his goals. In any case, at least having the "God Vest" helps him on that journey.

Again, I may not like Jason that much, even now, as a character - but I think Robinson did a good job of giving him some dimensions without overshadowing Diana for the issues he was in the cast. I'm sorry some folks don't agree with that assessment, but I doubt those folks would have appreciated a stronger, more assertive, more confident twin brother character, had Robinson gone that direction either.

By the way, one last point with respect to Jason "saving the day" in issue 50. That is the way it should have been, since he was "going away" after this storyline and according to the prophecy from Geoff Johns' storyline, Jason was destined to "save the day." So, Robinson did EXACTLY what he set out to do - bring that storyline to a place where the "prophecy" could be fulfilled. Did Diana do much? No. But, again, I've read many comics in which Spider-Man, Hulk, Superman, Batman, Iron Man, and other male characters have had another, secondary character, make the "sacrifice" to end the storyline, often while the hero is yelling "NOOOOOO!" Jane Foster is probably a bad example, since she WAS the main character in Thor for awhile, but she's the most obvious recent character to do that and it was Odinson who was screaming "NOOOOO!" I remember tons of secondary characters actually making the ULTIMATE sacrifice in many plotlines over the years to save the day - and one could argue sometimes that is why they exist, to sacrifice for the life and safety of the hero of the book. Perhaps the best example is Bucky Barnes - who in Marvel cannon was dead for 50 + years, before he was returned as Winter Soldier. Who can forget Captain America screaming at Bucky to "LET GO, LET GO!!!!"? In a kinda, sorta way, Jason is to Diana as Bucky was to Captain America.

Again, if Jason were a character the audience actually responded well to, his increased presence might have been tolerable. You mention Silk but she got the same amount of flack as Jason and it wasn't until she was in her own solo book that the fandom started warming up to her. All those other characters you talked about had years and years to build up a fan following. They were not created in a separate series from their main books and shoe-horned in because of a story the original writer was unable to finish. Jane Foster did not appear in an X-Men series as an ex-girlfriend of Thor's and then take over as God of Thunder within the same month.

Superman and Batman have numerous female character because of the lack of female characters in superhero comics or rather the lack of focus on female characters compared to their main counterparts. Jason by contrast, adds nothing new and is just yet one more male character DC decided to push at a female one's expense. And yeah we were supposed to like him given the comic can't stop talking about how amazing he is or trying to get us to feel sorry for him even when he doesn't deserve it.

And comparing Bucky to Jason may be the biggest insult to Bucky ever made.

[Agent Z]

That's because you aren't trying. I remember Cap being taken over by the Red Skull and others solving the problem. I remember MANY stories where the hero of the book was incapacitated, and he was saved by Lana or Lois or Tim and so on, and yes, the stories sometimes took months to resolve. You do a diservice to Wonder Woman in trying to claim other heroes have never faced similar situations and secondary characters weren't the focus for a few months. It's not true.

And by the way, as I said in my initial posting if you actually read the whole thing, Steve Trevor is really the ONLY significant male that has been used as a supporting character over the many years, with a few other potential love interests along the way. That's just sad. Male characters can have a blend of both multiple female and male secondary characters, but a female hero cannot? Stupid. Of course she can - she can have multiple men and women supporting characters in her storylines, and they can all be equally strong in character without being threatening to her spotlight. I do not envy WW writers that have to deal with such hypocracy and insecurities from such a loud contingency. It's almost as if those fans want WW issues to be less exciting and multifaceted than other comics. It's a problem multiple writers have mentioned, and an obvious one at that.

Robinson's run was anything but multifaced and exciting. When DC starts giving equal focus to their female characters as their male ones, we can talk about how unfair it is that Diana has one of the few comics that doesn't focus entirely on males.

[Awonder]

... I understand that they don't want the strongest DC female superhero character to lose "airtime" or get overshadowed, but that consistent response, over and over, writer to writer, leads to a serious potential for problems in interesting storylines for DC. ...

Therein lies the problem - this wasn't an interesting story. The problem is not that WW fans won't accept male supporting characters, it's that we don't want BAD characters, male or female. Jason was a lazy marketing gimmick shoehorned in to a poorly written story. Who wants 20 issues of that for ANY character?

... It's almost as if those fans want WW issues to be less exciting and multifaceted than other comics. ...

No, we want GOOD stories. Morrison was able to "kill" off and temporarily replace Bruce, because the story was GOOD. Same with Brubaker bringing Bucky back, and gradually making him Cap. This simply wasn't very good.

[Shadowedeyes]

A few thoughts. Two comics may or may not have helped with the Jason storyline, but it certainly couldn't have hurt. In addition, the run was coming off of some contentious stuff. Azzarello's run is a divisive point for the fanbase. Rucka's run was mostly well received I think, but Finch's was pretty much universally disliked. After Rucka we got a few fill in ones that I honestly can't remember. Which means Robinson was coming on to a comic that has had some major downs for the character in at least a good portion of the fanbase's mind, so Wonder Woman looking ineffectual may not have been the best idea. And to top it all off, the storyline was, with all due respect to Robinson, pretty bad in my mind. And apparently there are people who agree with me. Finally, Jason started off pretty unlikable, which is pretty counterproductive for making fans like him. Yah, yah, I get that he wanted to do a "Jason grows into the hero role" sorta story, but first impressions, right? And Jason was around for a long while. I forget the exact issue Robinson started on, but it was over a years worth. It might have been a better plan to do an introductory arc, give him a bit of space, then try more stuff than hammering the guy into every issue.

[Gaelforce]

That's because you aren't trying. I remember Cap being taken over by the Red Skull and others solving the problem. I remember MANY stories where the hero of the book was incapacitated, and he was saved by Lana or Lois or Tim and so on, and yes, the stories sometimes took months to resolve. You do a diservice to Wonder Woman in trying to claim other heroes have never faced similar situations and secondary characters weren't the focus for a few months. It's not true.

And by the way, as I said in my initial posting if you actually read the whole thing, Steve Trevor is really the ONLY significant male that has been used as a supporting character over the many years, with a few other potential love interests along the way. That's just sad. Male characters can have a blend of both multiple female and male secondary characters, but a female hero cannot? Stupid. Of course she can - she can have multiple men and women supporting characters in her storylines, and they can all be equally strong in character without being threatening to her spotlight. I do not envy WW writers that have to deal with such hypocracy and insecurities from such a loud contingency. It's almost as if those fans want WW issues to be less exciting and multifaceted than other comics. It's a problem multiple writers have mentioned, and an obvious one at that.

As others have pointed out, there are some flaws with this comparison.

1. Diana wasn't sidelined, mind controlled or incapacitated. She was at full strength.

2. Jason was not written as particularly likable, nor was he given any time to be shown developing any relationship with Diana or anyone outside of Glaucus and Hercules in short flashbacks.

3. The story from start to finish was just not good and often non-sensical. Trained by heroes (Glaucus and Hercules), Jason's first appearance is to try and murder his sister alongside the woman who murdered his brother Hercules without any sign of mind-control. He was in full control of his own faculties and making his own decisions and his motivation was weak at best. The story continued along these lines all the way to the end.

4. Robinson made a point of not only showing that Jason was more powerful than Diana (He had to literally *carry* her because he was faster), he flat out stated that he's more powerful than she is in his interview. So this isn't a case of a sidekick or lesser powered friend getting the spotlight in place of the hero - this was a *male* twin being made more powerful than the lead character and the writer rubbing the reader's face in it.

5. Diana was dumbed down to the point of literally stating that she's not good at planning and she wants Steve around so he can do it for her.

6. This went on for 20 issues. This wasn't a short arc, and, in fact, Robinson seems to be happy in his interview that his original 8 issue story got to be expanded to 20, yet during this 20 issues, we just got more of the same; Diana punching things and resolving nothing while Jason is given more and more powers and abilities which he instantly understands and masters *without any guidance from Wonder Woman.* It isn't a mentor relationship in any way, shape or form.

It doesn't compare to Cap/Bucky or Bruce/Tim or Clark/Lois. In each of those cases the secondary character was firmly established, written well and generally liked by the readers getting a chance to step into the hero's shoes while the hero is unavailable for some reason. More importantly, these characters are inferior in power to the main character.

Jason was never written as inferior or even as on par with Diana. He was written from the start as having more power and then gifted with *more* powers by way of the magic armor *and* a magic spear.

He wasn't filling in for Diana, he was cleaning up her mess as it was repeated throughout the run that she was responsible for the Dark Gods being there and slaughtering thousands of innocent people. Diana was shown time and time again as being completely ineffectual while Jason was shown to have all the answers and all the powers to solve the problem.

And to add to the not-so-subtle message of the storyline, the Fates made clear that the armor was intended for the Champion of the gods, Diana, but that the gods chose to give it to Jason because he's a man.

[brettc1]

As others have pointed out, there are some flaws with this comparison.

1. Diana wasn't sidelined, mind controlled or incapacitated. She was at full strength.

2. Jason was not written as particularly likable, nor was he given any time to be shown developing any relationship with Diana or anyone outside of Glaucus and Hercules in short flashbacks.

3. The story from start to finish was just not good and often non-sensical. Trained by heroes (Glaucus and Hercules), Jason's first appearance is to try and murder his sister alongside the woman who murdered his brother Hercules without any sign of mind-control. He was in full control of his own faculties and making his own decisions and his motivation was weak at best. The story continued along these lines all the way to the end.

4. Robinson made a point of not only showing that Jason was more powerful than Diana (He had to literally *carry* her because he was faster), he flat out stated that he's more powerful than she is in his interview. So this isn't a case of a sidekick or lesser powered friend getting the spotlight in place of the hero - this was a *male* twin being made more powerful than the lead character and the writer rubbing the reader's face in it.

5. Diana was dumbed down to the point of literally stating that she's not good at planning and she wants Steve around so he can do it for her.

6. This went on for 20 issues. This wasn't a short arc, and, in fact, Robinson seems to be happy in his interview that his original 8 issue story got to be expanded to 20, yet during this 20 issues, we just got more of the same; Diana punching things and resolving nothing while Jason is given more and more powers and abilities which he instantly understands and masters *without any guidance from Wonder Woman.* It isn't a mentor relationship in any way, shape or form.

It doesn't compare to Cap/Bucky or Bruce/Tim or Clark/Lois. In each of those cases the secondary character was firmly established, written well and generally liked by the readers getting a chance to step into the hero's shoes while the hero is unavailable for some reason. More importantly, these characters are inferior in power to the main character.

Jason was never written as inferior or even as on par with Diana. He was written from the start as having more power and then gifted with *more* powers by way of the magic armor *and* a magic spear.

He wasn't filling in for Diana, he was cleaning up her mess as it was repeated throughout the run that she was responsible for the Dark Gods being there and slaughtering thousands of innocent people. Diana was shown time and time again as being completely ineffectual while Jason was shown to have all the answers and all the powers to solve the problem.

And to add to the not-so-subtle message of the storyline, the Fates made clear that the armor was intended for the Champion of the gods, Diana, but that the gods chose to give it to Jason because he's a man.

I STRIDENTLY agree with everything here

Edit: and most especially with #5. Just looking at this issue, Diana has NO PLAN for how to deal with these Dark Gods except punching them. Meanwhile Jason transforms into a master strategist with a plan so cunning it first fools Diana, then fools the Dark Gods, and then fools both of them.

And King Best? I have no idea what he even is. Best at what?

[Largo161]

As others have pointed out, there are some flaws with this comparison.

1. Diana wasn't sidelined, mind controlled or incapacitated. She was at full strength.

2. Jason was not written as particularly likable, nor was he given any time to be shown developing any relationship with Diana or anyone outside of Glaucus and Hercules in short flashbacks.

3. The story from start to finish was just not good and often non-sensical. Trained by heroes (Glaucus and Hercules), Jason's first appearance is to try and murder his sister alongside the woman who murdered his brother Hercules without any sign of mind-control. He was in full control of his own faculties and making his own decisions and his motivation was weak at best. The story continued along these lines all the way to the end.

4. Robinson made a point of not only showing that Jason was more powerful than Diana (He had to literally *carry* her because he was faster), he flat out stated that he's more powerful than she is in his interview. So this isn't a case of a sidekick or lesser powered friend getting the spotlight in place of the hero - this was a *male* twin being made more powerful than the lead character and the writer rubbing the reader's face in it.

5. Diana was dumbed down to the point of literally stating that she's not good at planning and she wants Steve around so he can do it for her.

6. This went on for 20 issues. This wasn't a short arc, and, in fact, Robinson seems to be happy in his interview that his original 8 issue story got to be expanded to 20, yet during this 20 issues, we just got more of the same; Diana punching things and resolving nothing while Jason is given more and more powers and abilities which he instantly understands and masters *without any guidance from Wonder Woman.* It isn't a mentor relationship in any way, shape or form.

It doesn't compare to Cap/Bucky or Bruce/Tim or Clark/Lois. In each of those cases the secondary character was firmly established, written well and generally liked by the readers getting a chance to step into the hero's shoes while the hero is unavailable for some reason. More importantly, these characters are inferior in power to the main character.

Jason was never written as inferior or even as on par with Diana. He was written from the start as having more power and then gifted with *more* powers by way of the magic armor *and* a magic spear.

He wasn't filling in for Diana, he was cleaning up her mess as it was repeated throughout the run that she was responsible for the Dark Gods being there and slaughtering thousands of innocent people. Diana was shown time and time again as being completely ineffectual while Jason was shown to have all the answers and all the powers to solve the problem.

And to add to the not-so-subtle message of the storyline, the Fates made clear that the armor was intended for the Champion of the gods, Diana, but that the gods chose to give it to Jason because he's a man.

As I’ve stated elsewhere, I’m not reading the book at this time, but this description of the latest arc is just…mind-boggling to me. DC really signed off on this in 2018, the year after her successful movie?

[Gaelforce]

As I’ve stated elsewhere, I’m not reading the book at this time, but this description of the latest arc is just…mind-boggling to me. DC really signed off on this in 2018, the year after her successful movie?

I feel much the same.

The 'strident' outcry started when Robinson's arc was first announced. Coming off of DC's best reviewed hit movie and they say the all new direction is...the unknown male twin brother!!

Many of us had thought that Jason was being relegated to the ash heap of bad ideas, but to use the movie to launch into a male-centric story that makes Diana look stupid and ineffectual was just a terrible idea.

[Shadowedeyes]

Gaelforce summed it up way better than I did, but yah, basically all of that.

[Jackalope89]

I like the concept of a character like Jason in the Wonderverse (like how Superman has Supergirl and Powergirl, Batman has Batwoman and Batgirl, a host of Green Lanterns, etc). Where Diana has someone related to her, similar abilities, etc. But the execution of Jason...

Yeah, that left a LOT to be desired. And this last one, it pushed me into fully disliking this arc. Even though it was the last, I was annoyed almost every panel that Jason popped up in.

Now, if Geoff Johns or Snyder take a crack at bringing Jason back, perhaps they could actually make him a better character for the series, without overshadowing Diana and what not.