Wonder Woman #50 - Spoilers & Discussion

[WonderSpace]

It doesnt say anything other than he has a differnt view of a particluar point in Wonder Womens history.



Yes the Length of time that WW spent depowered was unusual, however,this was when Superhero comics had hit a downturn and DC was experimenting with different genres if I'm not mistaken so that the reason why it lasted as long as it did.

The fact remained that the trope itself this uncommon.

Yeah, and I challenge his point of view.

If you don't see how it's problematic to have the female superhero depowered...at a time where female characters were so few, not given a lot of opportunities, just acting as love interest, then I don't know what to say.
That guy should educate himself better. His comment proves that he does not understand the power imbalance between male and female characters, and therefore women and men irl.

The "she can be strong whitout powers" is just an excuse used by insecure male writers to keep female characters in their places.

And I don't care if there are male characters who got depowered, that's not the point, it's not equivalent. Male characters got to be the most powerful, they get to save the day every single time in big events, they get to be front and center in battles.

[Gaelforce]

Yeah, and I challenge his point of view.

If you don't see how it's problematic to have the female superhero depowered...at a time where female characters were so few, not given a lot of opportunities, just acting as love interest, then I don't know what to say.
That guy should educate himself better. His comment proves that he does not understand the power imbalance between male and female characters, and therefore women and men irl.

The "she can be strong whitout powers" is just an excuse used by insecure male writers to keep female characters in their places.

And I don't care if there are male characters who got depowered, that's not the point, it's not equivalent. Male characters got to be the most powerful, they get to save the day every single time in big events, they get to be front and center in battles.

And it hasn't changed.

Wonder Woman did not save the day in Robinson's arc. Jason did, every step of the way.

[Agent Z]

Exactly. This was supposed to be a plot line that defined who Jason was, give him a purpose, give him unique powers, and then have him fulfill the prophecy of saving the day -- all which it did. Jason was a slacker and partier, decides he wants to be a hero, finds out that is difficult, mistakenly gets armor meant for his sister, uses that armor heroically, but still has failures, but at the end of the day saves the day. I thought it was well thought out.

Did Wonder Woman give up some personal time so that they could flesh out her brother? Yes. And male heroes have done that for other superheroes male and female in many other plotlines in many other comics.

Anyway, if someone says "what is Jason's unique power," the answer is just like raidensix says - he's a Greek God Ultra Boy! It kind of makes him more powerful than his sister (more powers), but she is incredible with the powers she has - so in the end, there is no competition at the moment.

The question is, of course, when he returns, will he be given a superhero name, and will it be derivative of Wonder Woman? He should - Supergirl and Batgirl did it, it seems only fair! That being said, Wonder Man is taken, and the Argonaut or the "Errant Knight" seems appropriate to me. We will see!

And if Jason were a character worth caring about, that might have been acceptable.

[Natamaxxx]

"I was already getting crap from social media about how this is Wonder Woman's book and she should be the center of attention at all time. You know how strident Wonder Woman fans can be.", he says in an interview he knows will be published.

...I guess not.

[brettc1]

By the way...

https://www.newsarama.com/40775-wond...ing-at-50.html

"You know how strident Wonder Woman fans can be."

I'm now an ex-Robinson fan and he won't get a dime from me ever again.

OMG.

And while the men are still huffing and puffing and mansplaining each other about how they're going to do it, she's already halfway across the battlefield to take on the machine guns of the Germans.

This is just absurd, but it kind of sums up how Robinson, IMO, does not understand how to write characters.

Of COURSE the men are saying these things because is COMMON SENSE! None of them can go out there an live and there's no reason for them to think she can until she actually does it.

That's not mansplaining, James. That's these characters being true to the facts. Its setting up the scene so we actually KNOW how awesome it is to do what Diana did. It's not like ANYONE can do it.

Jesus wept.

[brettc1]

And it hasn't changed.

Wonder Woman did not save the day in Robinson's arc. Jason did, every step of the way.

In the end, Diana is a boogey [wo]man that Jason uses to scare off the bad guys.

Every single power that is used to get the bad guys to back down comes from him.

Also, she created the initial problem. So in effect he is cleaning up her mess.

Yes, James, we ARE strident. Most people are when in their own book the heroes get sidelined for the author's pet character.

[Gaelforce]

OMG.

And while the men are still huffing and puffing and mansplaining each other about how they're going to do it, she's already halfway across the battlefield to take on the machine guns of the Germans.

This is just absurd, but it kind of sums up how Robinson, IMO, does not understand how to write characters.

Of COURSE the men are saying these things because is COMMON SENSE! None of them can go out there an live and there's no reason for them to think she can until she actually does it.

That's not mansplaining, James. That's these characters being true to the facts. Its setting up the scene so we actually KNOW how awesome it is to do what Diana did. It's not like ANYONE can do it.

Jesus wept.

And as I've said, he totally misinterprets this scene as 'Diana wants to go punch the bad guys' and not 'Diana desperately wants to help people.'

It explains 20 issues of the 'I punch it in the face' mentality that she displayed.

[brettc1]

Exactly. This was supposed to be a plot line that defined who Jason was, give him a purpose, give him unique powers, and then have him fulfill the prophecy of saving the day -- all which it did. Jason was a slacker and partier, decides he wants to be a hero, finds out that is difficult, mistakenly gets armor meant for his sister, uses that armor heroically, but still has failures, but at the end of the day saves the day. I thought it was well thought out.

Did Wonder Woman give up some personal time so that they could flesh out her brother? Yes. And male heroes have done that for other superheroes male and female in many other plotlines in many other comics.

If this were a Jason mini-series, sure. But in a Superman comic, Superman takes the lead, not Kara. In a Batman comic, Oracle is not the one who ultimately saves the day while Bruce sits on his hands or just hangs around in the background.

[WonderSpace]

You know, the problem is not even that Jason took the lead. It's the fact that DC treats Diana so poorly in general :

Her origin is a mess
We occasionnaly get interesting storylines, but they are mostly weak
She is not shown as the powerhouse she is supposed to be
She is often in the shadow of men in team books
She isn't shown as smart and wise as she is supposed
She hasn't led a big event since War of the gods
No second title
No titles in other media (animation, video game...), despite the success of the film

She is there, without really being there, so when in her own title, she gets upstaged by yet another dude, of course it's going to piss of fans. It feels like DC perpetuating their lack of faith in WW.

If Diana got half the respect that let's say, Superman gets, I am sure that no one would be frustrated by Jason being front and center for 1 or 2 story arcs.

[Nyssane]

And as I've said, he totally misinterprets this scene as 'Diana wants to go punch the bad guys' and not 'Diana desperately wants to help people.'

It explains 20 issues of the 'I punch it in the face' mentality that she displayed.

As well as the basically shoulder shrug she does when she finds out she left the Blue Snowman in a coma.

[Aioros22]

That is quite a frustrating interview. Robinson doesn't seem to have a really strong connection to Diana's history or her fanbase (reminds me of Azzarello), if he thinks of Wonder Woman fans as primarily "strident" and separate from "people who enjoy what I'm doing." Shouldn't, you know, Wonder Woman fans be a fan of what's happening in a book called "Wonder Woman"?

I think he has a point with the idea that powers do not make Diana a hero - but that should also be the case for Superman, and it generally isn't. (Convergence: Superman actually did make him heroic without powers, but 52, for all its strength, kind of made him a prop for most of the book, at least in my memory of it.) Combine that statement with his clear failure to understand why Wonder Woman fans weren't happy with what he was doing, and I don't think it's a great picture.

There have been stories since the 60s touching that trope with Superman, he doesn`t usually stop being a hero or doing the right thing. He may feel useless without them as seen in a Roger Stern story in the 90s but there`s quite where he doesn`t let the lack of his pwoers define him. The New52, despite lacking proper execution sometimes, the arc resembles sort of bridges it over. He saw that he couldn`t keep helping the JL but kept being a hero in a more street level.

[Quasar's Bands]

If this were a Jason mini-series, sure. But in a Superman comic, Superman takes the lead, not Kara. In a Batman comic, Oracle is not the one who ultimately saves the day while Bruce sits on his hands or just hangs around in the background.

How long have you been reading comics? This happens ALL THE TIME. I remember when Silk was introduced in Spider-Man, not too long ago. Spider-Man was there, and around, but SILK was essentially the main focus for several issues to flesh out her story and what was going on with her. The same thing is true for Robin (Jason), Robin (Tim), the second Batgirl (Cassandra) , Signal, etc. Batman was part of the story, but many, many issues were devoted to evolve these secondary characters into the comic book universe. I remember when Amadeus Cho essentially took over the Hulk, and that was BEFORE he was the modern Hulk, but Amadeus was building his character and gathering other heroes into a team to help Hulk. I remember when Hercules TOOK OVER the Hulk comic for a couple of years! This is a very, very common thing in comics, brettc1, and you are wrong to say that Superman has never had another character "lead" the book. During the entire Kandor arc several years ago, the Kandor Nightwing and Flamebird took over Action Comics, I believe, and we often saw more of Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane and General Lane than we did of Superman in his own title! These things happen with incredible frequency in comics, depending on the story arc, and it's a good thing - it helps develop storylines and avoid repetition.

Wonder Woman is one of my favorite titles and characters, and has been since Polly was retroactively introduced to have been the Golden Age Wonder Woman (so many years ago), but Robinson spoke truth to power when he spoke about a big part of her fanbase that seems to always know what is best and is hypercritical of writers, especially male writers. It's rather unfortunate, because it gets in the way of potentially interesting and diverse storylines and potential. I've always found that Wonder Woman is a great title for strong female secondary characters, but Steve has really been the single male supportive character (unless it was another potential love interest). Superman has Lana, Lois, Kara, Martha, as well as Pete, Jimmy, Jonathan, etc. So, you would think that the balance of male and female characters would be more equal in Wonder Woman, but it never has been. Why do you think that is? I think this whole Jason storyline and the "rabid fan base" response shows EXACTLY why that is. If you introduce a male supporting character in Wonder Woman and give him the equal amount of time that Lana or Lois might get in Superman, the alleged "rabid" Wonder Woman fanbase gets angry. I understand that they don't want the strongest DC female superhero character to lose "airtime" or get overshadowed, but that consistent response, over and over, writer to writer, leads to a serious potential for problems in interesting storylines for DC. It shouldn't have to be that way.

Perhaps the answer should be that that Wonder Woman be given TWO titles. I mean, Superman has both Superman and Action Comics, and Batman has both Detective Comics and Batman, so why shouldn't Wonder Woman have two ongoing titles -- one devoted to Wonder Woman always being front and center and never sharing the limelight with any other potential major character, to appease one group, and one devoted to a more balanced cast of characters made up of both women and men, like you frequently see in the Batman and Superman franchise, with WW still being the lead usually in her own book. My guess that would relieve a lot of these weird dynamics, and I'd be 100% supportive of both titles myself!

Now, I didn't like Jason as a PERSON much, but I'm not sure we were supposed to. He's no Lana Lang, Kara, or Lois Lane - he's a screw up, easily manipulated and gullible, but with a good heart in the end. So, I NEVER THOUGHT HE WAS TAKING AWAY THE SPOTLIGHT AS THE HERO OF THE BOOK. That actually impressed me - Robinson was trying to walk a tightrope given to him by Geoff Johns -- introduce a new MALE character to the Wonder Woman universe, give him powers, but don't have him eclipse Diana - let her be the hero he looks up to. I think Robinson did exactly that. The vest is interesting - it was meant for Diana and it would have made her clearly more powerful than Superman if she had it, and I still wonder if she may use it someday if a writer decides to go that way. However, for now, it gives Jason at least a fighting chance to survive life with the Dark Gods. It also leads to a potential storyline where Jason "grows up" and becomes a hero largely on his own, fighting them or at least guiding them to their universe. Maybe he really does become more of a "Jason and the Argonauts" like character as a result of that experience! Maybe he becomes a Knight-Errant who goes throughout the universe, helping people whenever they need it, but often getting sidetracked because of this need to help people coupled with (what seems to be) ADHD - easily distracted from his goals. In any case, at least having the "God Vest" helps him on that journey.

Again, I may not like Jason that much, even now, as a character - but I think Robinson did a good job of giving him some dimensions without overshadowing Diana for the issues he was in the cast. I'm sorry some folks don't agree with that assessment, but I doubt those folks would have appreciated a stronger, more assertive, more confident twin brother character, had Robinson gone that direction either.

By the way, one last point with respect to Jason "saving the day" in issue 50. That is the way it should have been, since he was "going away" after this storyline and according to the prophecy from Geoff Johns' storyline, Jason was destined to "save the day." So, Robinson did EXACTLY what he set out to do - bring that storyline to a place where the "prophecy" could be fulfilled. Did Diana do much? No. But, again, I've read many comics in which Spider-Man, Hulk, Superman, Batman, Iron Man, and other male characters have had another, secondary character, make the "sacrifice" to end the storyline, often while the hero is yelling "NOOOOOO!" Jane Foster is probably a bad example, since she WAS the main character in Thor for awhile, but she's the most obvious recent character to do that and it was Odinson who was screaming "NOOOOO!" I remember tons of secondary characters actually making the ULTIMATE sacrifice in many plotlines over the years to save the day - and one could argue sometimes that is why they exist, to sacrifice for the life and safety of the hero of the book. Perhaps the best example is Bucky Barnes - who in Marvel cannon was dead for 50 + years, before he was returned as Winter Soldier. Who can forget Captain America screaming at Bucky to "LET GO, LET GO!!!!"? In a kinda, sorta way, Jason is to Diana as Bucky was to Captain America.

[millernumber1]

Perhaps the answer should be that that Wonder Woman be given TWO titles. I mean, Superman has both Superman and Action Comics, and Batman has both Detective Comics and Batman, so why shouldn't Wonder Woman have two ongoing titles -- one devoted to Wonder Woman always being front and center and never sharing the limelight with any other potential major character, to appease one group, and one devoted to a more balanced cast of characters made up of both women and men, like you frequently see in the Batman and Superman franchise, with WW still being the lead usually in her own book. My guess that would relieve a lot of these weird dynamics, and I'd be 100% supportive of both titles myself!

Haha, I don't read Action or Superman regularly, or talk about them here on the forums, but the Detective comment threads are ALWAYS filled with sour comments about how it should be a second Batman solo title. It's really amusing/frustrating. So even if you get your WW and Sensation titles, you're still going to end up with sour comments about how we need TWO solos for Diana. No side characters allowed!

[Quasar's Bands]

Haha, I don't read Action or Superman regularly, or talk about them here on the forums, but the Detective comment threads are ALWAYS filled with sour comments about how it should be a second Batman solo title. It's really amusing/frustrating. So even if you get your WW and Sensation titles, you're still going to end up with sour comments about how we need TWO solos for Diana. No side characters allowed!

Really? Ugh. That's just sad. Very, very sad. Detective has been really good over the last couple of years with a big cast of "secondary" heroes in a team book, and I'm going to miss that dynamic. Action and Superman are always better when they have a large assortment of supporting cast members and heroes. I'm sure that DC knows this - I hope they don't decide to change Detective so greatly that it becomes just "Batman II" each month.

[millernumber1]

Really? Ugh. That's just sad. Very, very sad. Detective has been really good over the last couple of years with a big cast of "secondary" heroes in a team book, and I'm going to miss that dynamic. Action and Superman are always better when they have a large assortment of supporting cast members and heroes. I'm sure that DC knows this - I hope they don't decide to change Detective so greatly that it becomes just "Batman II" each month.

I agree. Aside from Rucka's 25 issues of Wonder Woman and Priest's run on Deathstroke, Tynion's Tec is my absolute favorite run of Rebirth so far. Really excellent, and a great contrast to the other titles for Batman.

Since DC refuses to actually commit to a plan for Detective, just getting fill in arc after fill in arc, we have no clue what they're going to do...except that we're cursed with Robinson now...ugh!