How much do you blame Gambit for the Mutant Massacre?

[remydat]

No but he was a kid that couldn't control his powers. He accidentally killed his brother in law and the explosions we're becoming more and more dangerous. Being a member of the underworld his connections put him in contact with someone that could help him. But it came with a cost. Seemed simple. Find a list of mercs. He does so. Sinister asks another errand. Take them down into the morlock tunnels. If I'm remembering Creed's rambling correctly from one of the books, Sinister knew Gambit wouldn't have the stomach and if he tried to interfere, Sinister gave orders to kill him. Which almost happened as Gambit did in fact attack the Marauders. Gutted and bleeding to death he was able to grab and save one child that was being hidden by her parents dead bodies.

He's not responsible for the massacre. Sinister would have done with or without his assistance but he was a tool to making it happen sooner rather than later.

Don't know that he had kill orders as if you recall Gambit went back in time and visited Sinister and Sinister realized Gambit knew him. So Sinister likely knew that Gambit had not gone back in time yet during the MM so couldn't kill him as if he had then Sinister would never have acquired his shape shifting powers from Courier. Unless of cause Sinister presumes that in a multiverse you can't have a grandfather paradox.

Of course this is all a retcon but it seems Sinister sought out Gambit most likely because of the fact he visited him in the past.

[donpricetag]

Damn. All that went down?

It's the reason he had to leave NOLA immediately following his wedding. His charges were becoming more and more uncontrollable.

We also aren't clear on the timeline. We know he went to Sinister for the operation. But it's not clear how much time passed between the procedure and him being called upon to assemble the Marauders and lead them into the Morlock tunnels. In #350 it's made to look like it happened like right afterwards. But in Origins Gambit is much older, which makes sense, he even says "I'm not a kid". The massacre happened only a few regular real life years before his debut. So he had to be close to his present age. Gambit had the operation when he was young.

[remydat]

His name is Mister Sinister and he looks like a demonic glam rocker. Gambit definitely knew what he was about and he knew about Sabretooth as well. Gambit acted selfishly out of fear and desperation and got dozens of innocent people killed.

He knew Sinister was a mad scientist. None of his contracts with Sinister had involved mass murder. He obviously knew Sabretooth was a killer. Scalphunter was also a former friend and Gambit did not necessarily know him as a cold bolded killer. Obviously, Gambit had cause to believe something bad could happen but it is a stretch to claim he knew mass murder was in the works.

Further, what is your suggested alternative? I imagine without knowing anything about the mission, Gambit figured assembling a team for Sinister was a small price to pay for the help Gambit received. It is pretty absurd to pretend this element of assembling the Marauders was some grave sin or crime. Gambit didn't find out what the team was going to do ie go into the tunnels until after the team was already assembled and at that point his options were limited. From his perspective, his options were refuse to lead them into the tunnels in which case he probably ends up dead as does Marrow as it is absurd to think Sinister just lets him walk away and cancels the mission when he has two trackers ie Sabretooth and Scalphunter. Or he can do as he is told and look for an opportunity to do something if things go sideways. That is what happened and in the end he saved Marrow.

Sinister didn't need Gambit. He uses Gambit because he understands causality. Gambit had visited him in the past and made it obvious he and Sinister had a history. Gambit then returned to his future while Sinister lived through the years with the knowledge that he will one day meet Gambit. Thus, when he does, he surmises he will set Gambit on the course necessary to ensure Gambit visits him in the past because it is that visit that gives Sinister some of his knowledge and his shape shifting via Courier.

[remydat]

Where I do put some blame is that with his connections, he could have alerted someone that might have been able to prevent the massacre. I don't mean human authorities, who if they didn't arrest him for past crimes (thieves guild) would have no chance of going against the Marauders, I mean people who could possibly help to relocate the Morlocks, or even potentially people who could have alerted the X-Men and they could have been present before. Or, hell, even just going to the Morlocks themselves and giving them warning, probably the easiest and straightforward solution. Not to say that doing any of these would definitely prevented the massacre, just saying that he could have tried. Also hiding the fact of his involvement for years from the X-Men. Once the X-Men showed up to help the Morlocks why didn't he help. I know the real life reason is he hadn't been created yet, duh, but I'm talking actual storyline retcontinuity. (Hah, I made up a word lol). Surely at that point in the story would have been an ideal place to lend a hand.

Think you are forgetting the circumstances. He assembles the Marauders before knowing about the Morlocks. He doesn't find out the team he assembles is meant to go into those tunnels until the night they actually plan on going there. Further, there is no indication that Sinister will allow him to just walk away and alert anyone. Sinister specifically tells him he will be done with his obligations to Sinister when Sinister decides he is.

So if he refuses then he will likely have to fight his way out of there which is a losing battle. His best bet is actually to go along with them and look for an opportunity to catch them unawares and when Sinister who is obviously a threat in his own right is not there. Better to try and get the upper hand against the Marauders in dark tunnels rather than trying to fight Sinister and the Marauders in the open.

[Anthony Shaw]

Mystique? Mystique was leading Freedom Force and working for Val Cooper at the time of MM. The Messiah Complex doesn't happen for more than 20 years after the MM.

IIRC, Freedom Force had battled the O-5 in the tunnels shortly before the killing started. It was Destiny that told Raven that FF needed to get the hell outta the tunnels.

[Anthony Shaw]

Yeah, Gambit should have suspected that the Marauders had evil intentions and warned people, but it's not that surprising he didn't. He's always had an adversarial relationship with the authorities, and Sinister had framed it as his final job. In other words, he did it, and he got out.

He also genuinely may not have believed that Sinister wanted to massacre people. Sinister's evil, but his major reputation outside of the massacre is not as a mass murderer. He's more likely to clone people than to kill them. Gambit may have thought he had sent the team in to extract genetic material, and had anticipated some resistance from the Morlocks. That would fit Sinister's MO better. It would be a reasonable assumption. Remy seems shocked when Sabertooth randomly kills a Morlock, and he immediately turns on them.

Attachment 68260

He didn't help, because he was seriously wounded after he attacked the Marauders. Sabertooth grabbed him and tried to gut him. I doubt he was capable of helping by the point the X-Men came.

Attachment 68259
Attachment 68258

(Thought it would be helpful to include the relevant pages)

Now, I'm having memories of the first Omega Red story where Creed had quite the laugh of Remy being an X-Man, given his past. He also slashed Remy, joking about how spicy his blood was. I guess Creed was referring the attack in the tunnels. Later, we had the flashback where Creed made Remy choose between his older brother, and a woman he seduced in order to steal from her.

So much gruesome history between Remy & Creed.

[Anthony Shaw]

I voted partly. The true blame must always go to Sinister.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

the Retcon never made sense. The fact that sinister was behind the massacre didn't make much sense unless they had been his failed experiments.

[TheCape]

Now, I'm having memories of the first Omega Red story where Creed had quite the laugh of Remy being an X-Man, given his past. He also slashed Remy, joking about how spicy his blood was. I guess Creed was referring the attack in the tunnels. Later, we had the flashback where Creed made Remy choose between his older brother, and a woman he seduced in order to steal from her.

So much gruesome history between Remy & Creed.

No wonder why Logan and him became friends, they had a dislike for blond, animalistic men

[Anthony Shaw]

the Retcon never made sense. The fact that sinister was behind the massacre didn't make much sense unless they had been his failed experiments.

I enjoyed the retcon that Dark Beast created the Morlocks. Dark Beast studied under Sinister in the Age of Apocalypse world. 616 Sinister knew the Morlocks resembled his work, but not quite. So, he sent the Marauders to exterminate the Morlocks.

It was a time I enjoyed X-Men retcons to dangling plot lines.

[Anthony Shaw]

No wonder why Logan and him became friends, they had a dislike for blond, animalistic men

I found the images.

It's kinda weird the rivalry between Remy & Creed was not further explored once the Morlock Massacre fully came to light. Neither had anything left to hide, or lose.

[Sin Nick]

There's a case to be made that Lucas Bishop suffered the worst character assassination in X-Men history. More than Magneto. More than Emma Frost. More than Cyclops. More than Madeline Freaking Pryor, who used to be the Marvel poster child for this.

No case needed because everything you just said is true. It's already hard enough being a black character in the X-Men universe then they go and do this to. This is why I rarely take anything done post 2000 seriously at Marvel. I think I liked Marvel more when they still had the CCA on their books.

[donpricetag]

No case needed because everything you just said is true. It's already hard enough being a black character in the X-Men universe then they go and do this to. This is why I rarely take anything done post 2000 seriously at Marvel. I think I liked Marvel more when they still had the CCA on their books.

Well technically they retconned him to be the great-grandson of Gateway (Aboriginal), so while he is indeed of a darker complexion, he may not actually be black, per say? That being African descent. Believe me, it hurt me too.

[remydat]

Well Gateway would only be 1 of his 4 grandparents so that is only 25% of his heritage.