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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grindlelord View Post
    Winter solider was predictable, there is one plot point I wish winter solider had from wonder woman. reverse who the real villain is and not make it too noticeable. from the moment Alexander pearce shows up, we knew right away he was the villain. the whole bucky talk in the beginning of the film was awful since the more they talked about him, the more we knew he was the winter solider, these were all dead give aways.

    MCU movies are too basic but its not like disney denies they are not so I cant really fault them on that judging by disney standards but when I compare it to other comic films with heavier story telling, they are somewhat lacking and by the 3rd arc, its just your MCU explosions and action. DOFP and even TDK managed to hold the drama right till end.
    You can't complain it's predictable because you saw one plot point of Bucky being the Winter Soilder as everyone knew that was coming as soon as the title was revealed a year before it came out, it's part of Cap lore, especially when they did throw curveballs in the plot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grindlelord View Post
    funny since in 2014 both films were released 4 weeks apart and DOFP was deemed the superior movie. Winter Solider was outclassed every way, story telling, performances and depth alone. Winter Solider was no match for DOFP . DOFP killed this movie just in acting alone. please don't try to compare the complex character study dynamic of xavier and magneto to bucky and steve.
    or the 3 dimensional complicated character of Mystique to the one dimensional action figure character of Black Widow that had no real arc in the movie. DOFP wass a real drama that just happens to be a comic film.
    It is great that you prefer the story and tone of DOFP to WS, everyone has their own tastes. I think it might be challenging to come up with reasonable sources to support the claims above, however. The films were so closely reviewed, rated, and sold that differences are statistically insignificant.

    I personally found DOFP to be mostly a bundle of wasted opportunities, myself. It was a plot ripe for a searching moral tale on multiple levels, but settled instead for a manufactured-nail-biter-of-suspense ending about whether the good hero would strike before the evil plot could be realized. The moral dilemma of technology's unintended consequences had no real follow-up. It just sort vanished once the good guys had achieved their prime purpose. Winter Soldier also raised serious moral questions, and movie didn't shy away from them.

    I personally also found nothing terribly compelling about the X-Men characters, of which only 3 really counted for anything after all was said and done. In Winter Soldier, only two really counted for anything, but it was never set up to be more than that, and so I felt the objective was better achieved.


    We all like to project our views on a much wider audience and believe that most people believe the way we personally do (thus we have so many comments like "everybody knows that..." or "nobody cares about..."). I've done it myself from time to time. But it's valuable to step back now and then and consider if there's really any objective validity to that view.

    In this case, both for your view and mine, I think not.
    Last edited by AJBopp; 07-15-2018 at 12:39 PM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    It is great that you prefer the story and tone of DOFP to WS, everyone has their own tastes. I think it might be challenging to come up with reasonable sources to support the claims above, however. The films were so closely reviewed, rated, and sold that differences are statistically insignificant.

    I personally found DOFP to be mostly a bundle of wasted opportunities, myself. It was a plot ripe for a searching moral tale on multiple levels, but settled instead for a manufactured-nail-biter-of-suspense ending about whether the good hero would strike before the evil plot could be realized. The moral dilemma of technology's unintended consequences had no real follow-up. It just sort vanished once the good guys had achieved their prime purpose. Winter Soldier also raised serious moral questions, and movie didn't shy away from them.

    I personally also found nothing terribly compelling about the X-Men characters, of which only 3 really counted for anything after all was said and done. In Winter Soldier, only two really counted for anything, but it was never set up to be more than that, and so I felt the objective was better achieved.


    We all like to project our views on a much wider audience and believe that most people believe the way we personally do (thus we have so many comments like "everybody knows that..." or "nobody cares about..."). I've done it myself from time to time. But it's valuable to step back now and then and consider if there's really any objective validity to that view.

    In this case, both for your view and mine, I think not.
    it is everyone taste, though I am glad more significant people not me or you are speaking out on how mediocre most MCU movies are. what you said fits more with winter solider than DOFP as already spoken no need to repeat myself. one reason when both films came out around the same time, it as an easy win for DOFP.

    Winter soilder raising serious moral question was derivate, when first class addressed the cold war in the 60s, they went deep with it. it was just as important as the prejudiced part of being a mutant. even JFK who is a throw away character got character development in the film. An MCU movie will have watered down the cold war story in first class like winter solider, reason I said I will take Skyfall over winter solider. it was the same problem with black panther. MCU movies never tend to go deep. It is all surface level. They mention the problem they don’t evaluate it or make it compelling, that is what makes their movies weaker than other comic movies like DOFP or TDK or just any non Disney movie. as I said also, disney does admit their movies are made to be light hearted but that just sucks to me.
    Last edited by Grindlelord; 07-15-2018 at 01:05 PM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grindlelord View Post
    Winter solider was predictable, there is one plot point I wish winter solider had from wonder woman. reverse who the real villain is and not make it too noticeable. from the moment Alexander pearce shows up, we knew right away he was the villain. the whole bucky talk in the beginning of the film was awful since the more they talked about him, the more we knew he was the winter solider, these were all dead give aways.

    MCU movies are too basic but its not like disney denies they are not so I cant really fault them on that judging by disney's standards but when I compare it to other comic films with heavier story telling, they are somewhat lacking and by the 3rd arc, its just your MCU explosions and action with winter solider. DOFP and even TDK managed to hold the drama right till end.
    Who didn't see it was the English guy who was the villain instead of the crystal meth taking cartoon German General and poison lady or that she was the weapon? The real twist would be no Ares at all and man really was in command of his own destiny and caused the war on his own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Who didn't see it was the English guy who was the villain instead of the crystal meth taking cartoon German General and poison lady or that she was the weapon? The real twist would be no Ares at all and man really was in command of his own destiny and caused the war on his own.
    Compared to seeing Pearce as the villain in Winter Solider? no we did not see the English guy (Ares), since he mostly stayed low in the film and let General Erich Ludendorff do the dirty work and come off as the real villain. Winter Solider was stuck with Pearce from beginning to end, Wonder Woman at least gave some surprises in the main real villian and was less predictable. It would have sucked if General Erich Ludendorff did stay as the real villain through out the film like Pearce did in Winter Solider making it more predictable.
    Last edited by Grindlelord; 07-15-2018 at 01:16 PM.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grindlelord View Post
    it is everyone taste, though I am glad more significant people not me or you are speaking out on how mediocre most MCU movies are. what you said fits more with winter solider than DOFP as already spoken no need to repeat myself. one reason when both films came out around the same time, it as an easy win for DOFP.

    Winter soilder raising serious moral question was derivate, when first class addressed the cold war in the 60s, they went deep with it. it was just as important as the prejudiced part of being a mutant. even JFK who is a throw away character got character development in the film. An MCU movie will have watered down the cold war story in first class like winter solider, reason I said I will take Skyfall over winter solider. it was the same problem with black panther. MCU movies never tend to go deep. It is all surface level. They mention the problem they don’t evaluate it or make it compelling, that is what makes their movies weaker than other comic movies like DOFP or TDK or just any non Disney movie. as I said also, disney does admit their movies are made to be light hearted but that just sucks to me.
    The X-MEN film series is as deep as a kids pool they're entertaining films not nearly as much fun as they should be with the exception of the Deadpool series with morality tales meant for CHILDREN. Ironically for all your hate for Disney the "Deepest and Darkest" material Marvel has ever put to film is Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Punisher on Netflix and owned and produced by Marvel TV under Disney.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Who didn't see it was the English guy who was the villain instead of the crystal meth taking cartoon German General and poison lady or that she was the weapon? The real twist would be no Ares at all and man really was in command of his own destiny and caused the war on his own.
    Tbh I cared so little for the villians and Ares that I didn't even think about it, if a robot Batman from the future turned out to be the baddie all along I still would of given an apathetic yawn.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grindlelord View Post
    Compared to seeing Pearce as the villain in Winter Solider? no we did not see the English guy (Ares), since he mostly stayed low in the film and let General Erich Ludendorff do the dirty work and come off as the real villain. Winter Solider was stuck with Pearce from beginning to end, Wonder Woman at least gave some surprises in the main real villian and was less predictable. It would have sucked if General Erich Ludendorff did stay as the real villain through out the film like Pearce did in Winter Solider making it more predictable.
    One it's PIERCE not PEARCE what sucks is a magic boogie man god is why humanity commits war. At least in Winter Soldier it showed the dark side of humanity and excuses we give to commit those acts and not blame it on magic man in the shadows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    The X-MEN film series is as deep as a kids pool they're entertaining films not nearly as much fun as they should be with the exception of the Deadpool series with morality tales meant for CHILDREN. Ironically for all your hate for Disney the "Deepest and Darkest" material Marvel has ever put to film is Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Punisher on Netflix and owned and produced by Marvel TV under Disney.
    Let me tick the kids pool.

    It was disney that banned smoking in their films not X-Men to make it more kid friendly.

    It was Disney that said all MCU movies must be light hearted while X-Men contunue to find more serious acclaim tackling the darker stories of the xmen universe like DOFP or Old Man Logan/The Death of Wolverine. MCU is so into the kids pool they made Ragnarok light hearted comedy, Imagine if DOFP A dystopian human genocide story in the comics , fox made it a light hearted comedy.

    It is xmen movies that uses more grounded drama to MCU more colourful CGI approach because Disney thinks comic films are for kids anyway.

    It was X-Men movies that tackled real issues like substance abuse to MCU that rejected it for the Kids pool market.

    It is X-Men movies that still managed to keep grittiness and full blood scenes in pg 13? why MCU can't?

    MCU movies are all on their own in kids pool, please their movies are made by Disney.What more can I expect. as I said, it is super hard to drag other comic films down to disney's level.

    Spiderman is not even as dark as xmen movies yet in Sony's spiderman, he is allowed to fight violently when necessary. Disney banned spiderman from punching people to appeal to the kids pool.

    Am sorry , the kids pool only belongs to Disney MCU and everything I said you see is true confirmed by Disney. It will be hard to argue against that.No one thinks X2, DOFP, BB, TDK are just like disney movies because they are simply not. they are made by FOX and WB that have more balls than Disney.

    Also who is making horror comic films? that is xmen right. meanwhile Antman 2 is the lightest brightest funniest mcu movie yet. which sounds more kids pool. its factually not the horror film.
    Last edited by Grindlelord; 07-15-2018 at 02:37 PM.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grindlelord View Post
    Let me tick the kids pool.

    It was disney that banned smoking in their films not X-Men to make it more kid friendly.

    It was Disney that said all MCU movies must be light hearted while X-Men contunue to find more serious acclaim tackling the darker stories of the xmen universe like DOFP or Old Man Logan/The Death of Wolverine. MCU is so into the kids pool they made Ragnarok light hearted comedy, Imagine if DOFP A dystopian human genocide story in the comics , fox made it a light hearted comedy.

    It is xmen movies that uses more grounded drama to MCU more colourful CGI approach because Disney thinks comic films are for kids anyway.

    It was X-Men movies that tackled real issues like substance abuse to MCU that rejected it for the Kids pool market.

    It is X-Men movie still managed to keep grittiness and full blood scenes in pg 13? why MCU can't?

    MCU movies are all on their own in kids pool, please their movies are made by Disney.What more can I expect. as I said, it is super hard to drag other comic films down to disney's level.

    Spiderman is not even as dark as xmen movies yet in Sony's spiderman, he is allowed to fight violently when necessary. Disney banned spiderman from punching people to appeal to the kids pool.

    Am sorry , the kids pool only belongs to Disney MCU and everything I said you see is true confirmed by Disney. It will be hard to argue against that.No one thinks X2, DOFP, BB, TDK are just like disney movies because they are simply not. they are made by FOX and WB that have more balls than Disney.

    Also who is making horror comic films? that is xmen right. meanwhile Antman 2 is the lightest brightest funniest mcu movie yet. which sounds more kids pool. its factually not the horror film.
    Disney banned smoking in PG-13 and below films to not promote it too kids.

    Jessica Jones is a Alcoholic, Valkyrie was a Drunk, Tony was drunk in Iron Man 2 while using his armor and it was brought up. Xavier took fake drug so he could walk and that's it. Spider-Man punches people and got beaten to a bloody pulp. Where's the blood in the PG-13 Fox X-Men films? Deadpool and Logan are R. Comic book films should be for KIDS but the X-Men aren't deep racism bad is a message if someone who is not a child need an X-Men film to explain to them is beyond help.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grindlelord View Post
    Winter soilder raising serious moral question was derivate...
    How was it derivative, what was it derivative off?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grindlelord View Post
    it is expected a mcu fan will say DOFP is not that great of a movie because it is better than all their MCU movies. poorly paced in the mcu world means a movie that has real drama in it and not jokes after jokes or explosions after explosions or a predictable plot and basic story telling like Winter Solider was.

    the fight scenes are not well choreographed in the mcu world means fight scenes that are gritty, realistic as possible and grounded and raise the stakes not for fun CGI cool reasons or done to make up the fact a movie has no plot. did you ever get the memo of deadpool mocking superhero landings? winter solider had so many.

    funny since in 2014 both films were released 4 weeks apart and DOFP was deemed the superior movie. Winter Solider was outclassed every way, story telling, performances and depth alone. Winter Solider was no match for DOFP . DOFP killed this movie just in acting alone. please don't try to compare the complex character study dynamic of xavier and magneto to bucky and steve.
    or the 3 dimensional complicated character of Mystique to the one dimensional action figure character of Black Widow that had no real arc in the movie. DOFP wass a real drama that just happens to be a comic film.

    It is winter solider that should never be mentioned in the same sentence as DOFP since disney would have found DOFP to compelling, dark and adult themed to make and will rather have dumbed it down to fit winter solider generic spy level movie. If DOFP was ever a spy movie, it will end up more like Skyfall not Winter Solider. I don't need to tell anyone just how much Skyfall is a superior movie to Winter Solider and how disney will never make Skyfall anymore than they would have made DOFP


    Yeah, I'm done with you.

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    Winter Soldier personally to me was one of the best Marvel films of that year. It did way more as pointed out at changing the Marvel film universe direction and setting the stage for things that we see now. The action and spy scenes were perfect. One of the best things I liked from it was since the 1970's fans would say Robert Redford should have been Steve Rogers. They had this personal wish that had Marvel done movies then , he'd be Steve Rogers. So they cast him and then made him the big villain behind it all.
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grindlelord View Post
    i one reason when both films came out around the same time, it as an easy win for DOFP.
    Easy win in what regard?

    Winter Soldier Days of Future Past
    Domestic Box Office 259,766,572 233,921,534
    Worldwide Box Office 714,264,267 747,862,775
    RT Critics Rating 89% 90%
    RT Audience Rating 92% 91%
    CinemaScore Rating A A

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    Easy win in what regard?

    Winter Soldier Days of Future Past
    Domestic Box Office 259,766,572 233,921,534
    Worldwide Box Office 714,264,267 747,862,775
    RT Critics Rating 89% 90%
    RT Audience Rating 92% 91%
    CinemaScore Rating A A
    It is cool to know the lesser few still hang onto rt, box office and all these supercritical stuff that has little to do with film criticism or what makes a movie good.

    so personally I think all MCU movies are one and the same but I seem to notice most and if not all mcu fans I have met thinks infinity wars is better than black panther so how can black panther have beaten it by 14 marks on RT?

    Sorry love, I don't use all this stuff. good films are judged based on what is in the content , the depth and we know critics have little credibility any more with comic films.

    you might as well try to use these rt and box office to tell me the force awakens is better than revenge of the sith when it the worst main star wars and one of the most soulless cooperate film ever known to mankind

    funny enough winter solider is the most acclaimed mcu movie, rt and box office does not actually reflect that because they are useless tools not to be taken seriously.

    next time I say a movie is better than another, I will argue based on things like plot, story telling, acting, performances, depth, cinematography. not an rt site that can give a movie a good review because it is fun. that is not a real review.

    Please read what martin scorsese once said about this stuff. believe me as a fan of film. it is more beneficial to listen to martin scorsese than spin doctor critics that have little credibility compared to the great Marty that has loads.

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...column-1047286
    Last edited by Grindlelord; 07-15-2018 at 03:12 PM.

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