View Poll Results: How do you prefer the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver background history ?

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  • Children of Magneto, mutants from birth

    335 89.33%
  • High Evolutionarys Experiments

    40 10.67%
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  1. #421
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    It's the reason why it's interesting that Wanda and Pietro are still mutants. This way, the mutant community feels less like a cult: either 'in' or 'out'.
    I have blue eyes but I don't belong in the 'community of blue eyes', it's just a feature (they are not that blue anyway).
    The mutants need people on the fringe, otherwise…
    Yeah but people with blue eyes aren't hunted down and killed because they have blue eyes. In fact, quite the opposite.

  2. #422
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Yeah but people with blue eyes aren't hunted down and killed because they have blue eyes. In fact, quite the opposite.
    Still Wanda and Pietro had an experience that was unique as being members of Avengers after being members of the Brotherhood. They are still interesting characters.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  3. #423
    Astonishing Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    It's the reason why it's interesting that Wanda and Pietro are still mutants. This way, the mutant community feels less like a cult: either 'in' or 'out'.
    I have blue eyes but I don't belong in the 'community of blue eyes', it's just a feature (they are not that blue anyway).
    The mutants need people on the fringe, otherwise…
    So what you mean is that Krakoa as a nation feels like a cult because they don't have enough dissenters? That's a bit silly you have to admit.

    And how can you really compare having blue eyes to being a mutant in the MU? It's not like the mutants banded together for no reason other than the fact that they're all mutants.

  4. #424
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoCoBandz View Post
    So what you mean is that Krakoa as a nation feels like a cult because they don't have enough dissenters? That's a bit silly you have to admit.
    They don't have many friends outside Krakoa, am I wrong? Friends, connections or relationships…
    Genosha was very isolated, too…

    Quote Originally Posted by CoCoBandz View Post
    And how can you really compare having blue eyes to being a mutant in the MU? It's not like the mutants banded together for no reason other than the fact that they're all mutants.
    They banded together because they are mutants. Because they have the X-gene. They don't take in people in need, people who have suffered like them for other reasons than being a mutant.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  5. #425
    Astonishing Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    They don't have many friends outside Krakoa, am I wrong? Friends, connections or relationships…
    Genosha was very isolated, too…


    They banded together because they are mutants. Because they have the X-gene. They don't take in people in need, people who have suffered like them for other reasons than being a mutant.
    You say "they" as if all mutants speak in one. Who knows how many friends any Krakoan has out side of their homeland? Could be one could be five could be zero. That doesn't really seem that important.

    They banded together because they were being exterminated with extreme predjudice globally like six months prior to Krokoa. Every single mutant was a person in need.

    You don't question a breast cancer rally for not catering to lung cancer victims...

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Still Wanda and Pietro had an experience that was unique as being members of Avengers after being members of the Brotherhood. They are still interesting characters.
    Well it certainly was more interesting when mutant characters could be in more books than just X-Men.
    It was better before the X Office started poaching about every character with an X-Gene.

  7. #427
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    All this just reminds me that "Magneto: Dark Seduction" was a big missed opportunity. The Busiek Avengers run had made Wanda more prominent than she had been probably since the '70s, Pietro had also just come off his most prominent era (in Age of Apocalypse and then his own ongoing, even if it failed). The infamous "he's NOT my father!" scene in Avengers" #25 seemed to be setting up a big crossover between the Avengers and the X-Men and Magneto's Genoshan nation, but all we got was a very disappointing four-issue limited series.

    (Fabian Nicieza and Roger Cruz were capable of better work than they did there, but it's hard to blame anyone but X-Men editorial for the poor state of X-books in that period; everyone was doing way below their best work.)

    Neither Wanda nor Pietro have really been a stable (in every sense of the word) member of the Avengers since Avengers Disassembled, so even before the retcon we never really got to see an X-Men crossover that really played up both their status as Magneto's children and their (especially Wanda's) status as prominent Avengers. We didn't get it in Bloodties either; the closest we ever got was that one issue Avengers issue Mark Waid wrote during the Onslaught crossover, about Magneto/Joseph triggering Wanda's PTSD from her time in the Brotherhood (and even that barely even mentioned that he was their father, probably because Waid didn't like that retcon).
    Last edited by gurkle; 12-12-2019 at 06:10 PM.

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    All this just reminds me that "Magneto: Dark Seduction" was a big missed opportunity. The Busiek Avengers run had made Wanda more prominent than she had been probably since the '70s, Pietro had also just come off his most prominent era (in Age of Apocalypse and then his own ongoing, even if it failed). The infamous "he's NOT my father!" scene in Avengers" #25 seemed to be setting up a big crossover between the Avengers and the X-Men and Magneto's Genoshan nation, but all we got was a very disappointing four-issue limited series.

    (Fabian Nicieza and Roger Cruz were capable of better work than they did there, but it's hard to blame anyone but X-Men editorial for the poor state of X-books in that period; everyone was doing way below their best work.)

    Neither Wanda nor Pietro have really been a stable (in every sense of the word) member of the Avengers since Avengers Disassembled, so even before the retcon we never really got to see an X-Men crossover that really played up both their status as Magneto's children and their (especially Wanda's) status as prominent Avengers. We didn't get it in Bloodties either; the closest we ever got was that one issue Avengers issue Mark Waid wrote during the Onslaught crossover, about Magneto/Joseph triggering Wanda's PTSD from her time in the Brotherhood (and even that barely even mentioned that he was their father, probably because Waid didn't like that retcon).
    They have been members in the uncanny team years. before and after secret wars. There are not many characters that can appear always in a book ( and even the most popular have periods where they are not seen )

  9. #429
    'Sup Choom? Handsome men don't lose fights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    read that aloud to yourself.
    Well, if you actually followed Gilleon's redefined Sinister, you'd know they're a legion of conflicting ideas in a constant state of evolution. They already had their genetic debate/civil war, mutation won out, all Sinisters are mutants, and Krakoa is for mutants.
    "A happy ending? So unlikely. We're not having a moment here.

    Wrong city, wrong people, all huddling in fear.

    No one escapes the slaughterhouse, and that's just where you're at.

    (You could've asked Rebecca but then Adam stomped her flat.)

    You think you're special cuz you're scrappy? You're deluded, time to go.

    Lucy's living on the moon but you're another dead psycho."

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    and it has happened. that's why he's in the free and clear. it's Wanda's turn.
    I thought X fans were sticking to the "that was was Xorn not Magneto" retcon.

  11. #431
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teapartyofthedead View Post
    From these latest batch of posts, I think we can all agree that there is a great deal of unresolved conflict between Max and the twins, which the fans see and respond to. It makes sense: they met him years after he’d not only given up on humanity and basic happiness, but had become very cruel towards his subordinates (Mastermind deserved it and more, but did Toad at that time deserve to wear a belt that let Magneto punished him whenever he felt like it? Astra claims he was abusive, but it sounds more like she tried to hit him up and got shut down, felt humiliated and left). And while it was clear he favored them and considered them essential to his plans, that didn’t stop him from being manipulative and callous to get them to stay at his side. Holding their rescue above their heads to keep them because they feel they’re obligation to discharge that obligation, is exploitation (just like Charles would do to Scott, and Jack Diamond before him). Yes, sending hitmen to attack them in their sleep (but not telling the twins the attackers were under orders never to actually hurt them) is abusive even if Pietro doesn’t think so. As I recall, he was trying to justify doing much the same to the Avengers Academy kids, and Tigra had to point out that was not okay then and now. The twins are supposed to be the same age as the 05, so I’m guessing they were around 12-14, even if in the original issues they all seem more like 17-19. In any case, they were still children that were being exploited and abused. Would Max have treated them like that if he knew the twins were his children? Well, despite what Ultimates says, I don’t believe so. He might still have been harsh, but not to the point it got to. What then of his reaction to HoM? If it was outrage at being mind controlled, that’s pretty rich of him considering how he made an underage Wanda dance for his entertainment while mind controlling her. If it’s because he didn’t like that this was the one time where he didn’t like it being done in his name, that’s fair. Again, they could have made it so they were just simple people living simple lives, but no they had to be kings and queens of the world. Did it warrant Max murdering Pietro? At that point, the damage was mainly psychological as well as dragging the Avengers and X-Men into their family drama. Murder wasn’t called for. I can only speculate this was anger born of years of hurt and frustration at Pietro arguing and fighting him instead of accepting his offer of ruling the world as father and son. And then turns around and makes House of M. The straw that broke the camel’s back, perhaps.

    That being said, it doesn’t change that Wanda is responsible for Avengers Disassembled, and No More Mutants, and shares the blame for House of M with Pietro. Just like being a Holocaust survivor and frequent target for prejudice doesn’t change the faults of his behaviors toward the twins. It explains why, but doesn’t make them blameless. Wanda knowingly used black magic to revive children that she was only guessing were real at the time, because no one knew Wiccan and Speed were real all along after all and just retro incarnated, as so happens often in comics. She willingly went to Doom for help in the matter, and even knowing the possible consequences, still went forward. Under the influence she killed her fellow Avengers, like Vision and Hawkeye. Still under the influence of this Life Force which no one but her and Doom knew about, she agrees with Quicksilver’s plans to keep everyone in their fondest dreams so they can’t kill her, and she creates House of M. Not a reality where everyone gets along and Max and family live in the south of France, but specifically one where mutants have come into their inheritance and Max and Pietro rule while Wanda pretends she’s baseline human and pick up where she left off: playing with her imaginary children in her room, without the world coming into it. That was wish fulfillment on their part, and it’s pretty damming. After it comes crashing down on their heads, she lashes out at mutantdom to get back at Magneto and her brother, thus causing the deaths of thousands, which is an act of genocide. Does being under the influence of black magic, which she took under her own volition, make her in any less culpable?

    The closest real world analogy we have is someone binge drinking after the loss of their children, and still drunk, getting into a car and causing a major roadway collision. Under American law, she would still be held accountable, and would be lucky is she got only a charge of manslaughter. At the very least, as a peace keeping officer, she would never again have a place in law enforcement, and would have to look into private security. And of course, this isn’t to scale. It wasn’t a few buses filled with orphans, it was an entire race that was attacked. It’s a heinous crime. It makes sense Wanda fans refuse to acknowledge its legitimacy as canon, or place the blame anywhere else. House of M should serve as a warning in the industry as how poor long-term planning and inter-office rivalries can really **** stories and characters up for decades. Out of universe, we know that Marvel editorship was looking to get ride of the classic Avengers and trim the X-cast, and poor Wanda was the one they chose to do all that and more. In universe, it looks like Wanda got away with genocide by hiding in Europe and then on the Avengers Mansion, all while mutantdom burned.

    Pietro is given less of a hard time because he had follow up, in Son of M and through the recent X-Factor. He fell hard, unable to cope with the loss of everything and everyone he loved. He day drinks in his underwear in a flop house. He tries to kill himself after Spider-Man tells him off for his part in HoM, and is then told the one chance to regain them and restore his race, and thus redeem himself, are denied by his in-laws. Does this excuse his act of kidnapping his underage daughter, subjecting her to an element he was warned could have disastrous side effects on her health? No. Not at all. Not even a little. Crystal did the right thing in annulling their marriage for that. And when Pietro lied about the whole thing by claiming a Skrull did it in front of Luna, who literally knows he’s lying? He deserved to lose her respect, too. Magneto knows, and calls him out on it when he visits Avengers Academy. Hell, one of his students worked it out, and forced him to give her extracurricular lessons.

    So why do x-fans want him back partying it up with the other Krakoans while forming mobs to hunt down Wanda? Because he got called out on it by the people he loves. Because he was a villain and the narrative treated him that way for years, before moving him back to anti-hero. Because he confessed to all that and more at a live television conference that his victims showed up at in X-Factor. Because you got to see him fall, get back up, fall again, crawl, before pulling himself up again. Only when he has to own up to his actions and humble himself before a press conference does Luna forgive him, and starts to be seen as a hero again. Somewhat.

    Wanda didn’t get that. She was thrown in limbo for about five years, in which no one saw her or her point of view. They did see the fallout and consequences, and see beloved characters suffer for it. You don’t know anymore than that until 2010, nine years ago. Children’s Crusade, and that’s it. She essentially goes from the rubble of Genosha, CC, and then she’s automatically forgiven and back to being an Avenger. Vision being upset with her is shown to be wrong as you see Tony calling him harsh. After she killed him. She didn’t (or wasn’t allowed to) atone by having to face her accusers and victims, or make restitutions. Worse, AvX saw her side against the X-Men. After that, Uncanny Avengers saw her being rude and haughty with Rogue, even stating she didn’t see a reason for mutants to continue as a race, they didn’t have a culture, and that the X-Men have a martyr complex. Then she wasn’t even Magneto’s mutant daughter anymore, and the last bit of goodwill she had just died. All this over a nine year period. Altogether, it’s almost fifteen years now. That’s a long time to go without a proper redemption story.

    These three very complicated people with mental health and incredible power tore an entire people asunder, and the history of mutantdom, the world, and comics were changed forever. But it’s left so much unresolved and it shows in the strong emotions it evokes even after nearly two decades. That tells me there is so much that can be done with this family and their dynamic. Fans are intensely interested in this story finally reaching a conclusion and catharsis. I think it would make for fascinating readings, and do them all good, if only to finally move on.
    I completely agree with this well said I would just argue that Magneto isn´t really interested in forcing Pietro to rule the world unless he´s in one of his insane phases from the 90´s, In his right mind he just seems to like to spend some time with him as father and Son but he´s very bad at actually saying this, especially since he´s perfectly aware he doesn´t have much leg to stand after HoM. His last attempt trying to act with the twins as a normal family was to invite Pietro and Wanda to the south of france but this was right after the drama of Children crusade so it wasn´t to be and then of course Axis just made everything much more complicated. Given his own good experiences with his father I am sure Max would really like to have something like that with any or all of his children but at this point after everything it´s just wishful thinking on his part with the exception of Lorna of course, they went to eat ice cream so that´s something.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 12-12-2019 at 09:25 PM.
    "To the X-men then, who don´t die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

    Magneto: The master of magnetism Appreciation 2022
    Polaris: The Mistress of Magnetism Appreciation 2022
    House of M Appreciation 2022

  12. #432

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I thought X fans were sticking to the "that was was Xorn not Magneto" retcon.
    i'll settle for Wanda having her spine severed and being left in a vegetative coma.

  13. #433
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    i'll settle for Wanda having her spine severed and being left in a vegetative coma.
    She must have at least crushed your toes…
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handsome men don't lose fights View Post
    Well, if you actually followed Gilleon's redefined Sinister, you'd know they're a legion of conflicting ideas in a constant state of evolution. They already had their genetic debate/civil war, mutation won out, all Sinisters are mutants, and Krakoa is for mutants.
    I'm not sure how Gillen's Sinister Hive proves that. As shown, the hive mind transformation was achieved through the experimentation on a Phalanx subject, an alien. No additional powers were added beyond that and he directly exploited a vast gallery of mutant clones. His ambitions, as he told the Extinction Team, went beyond finding a perfect mutant and instead, a perfect Sinister, hence his tempting with Celestials and Phoenix Force which shows his ambitions have evolved more than anything else. Evolution in itself isn't what makes mutant a mutant. It's the X-gene. From what we know Sinister is an artificial mutant since he somehow integrated Courier's DNA.

  15. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I completely agree with this well said I would just argue that Magneto isn´t really interested in forcing Pietro to rule the world unless he´s in one of his insane phases from the 90´s, In his right mind he just seems to like to spend some time with him as father and Son but he´s very bad at actually saying this, especially since he´s perfectly aware he doesn´t have much leg to stand after HoM. His last attempt trying to act with the twins as a normal family was to invite Pietro and Wanda to the south of france but this was right after the drama of Children crusade so it wasn´t to be and then of course Axis just made everything much more complicated. Given his own good experiences with his father I am sure Max would really like to have something like that with any or all of his children but at this point after everything it´s just wishful thinking on his part with the exception of Lorna of course, they went to eat ice cream so that´s something.
    South of France?

    Seriously?
    A place populated by people Magneto would happily beat to a pulp is where he would have a family get together.

    Isn't Magneto supposed to be a revolutionary? South of France is the land of the rich and corrupt and tax dodgers. Same with the Royal motif of House of M; many of the nation's with monarchies persecute mutants and to a man like Magneto monarchies would embody the ruling elite who crush minorities.

    Why would he become the embodiment of ruling class entitlement, the very thing he seeks to destroy?

    But of course monarchy is all about inheritance of power...its the virility theme yet again, isn't it?

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