What do Iron Man fans think of his involvement in recent Spider-Man history?

[Spidercide]

Speaking as a huge Spider-Man fan here, I and most other Spider-Man comic fans I’ve encountered really, really, really, really, really despise Iron Man’s involvement in Spider-Man lore in recent years.

From the stuff in Civil War 2006 (in which Spidey agreed with Tony against Steve which he’d NEVER do), to his presence in ‘Power Play’ in 2016, his father/son dynamic in the movies and the general pushing of the idea that Iron Man is an important part of Spider-Man’s story (with modern media and merch pushing the idea that he’s like tied up in Spidey’s origin and early days).

For us it is unnecessary, undermines Spider-Man’s independence (especially early on) which was part of Lee and Ditko’s whole vision for the character and generally speaking we prefer Spidey to interact with Spidey specific characters rather than guys from other titles (Human Torch and Daredevil not withstanding).

Heck it also undermines the connection between Spider-Man and Captain America who actually has a more significant connection to Peter. He was Peter’s childhood idol as a superhero (see ASM Minus 1), got referenced in the debut of Carnage, played a n important role in Maximum Carnage and even helped Peter and MJ get back together a little. Heck his and Spider-Man teaming up was important for setting the stage for Kraven’s Last Hunt. In a very real sense if Uncle Ben is who Peter tries to be as a man, then Captain America is who he tries to be as a hero. Not Iron Man.

But that’s from Spider-Fans’ POVs. I am curious to know what Iron Fans actually think of the greater connections Marvel have tried to make between the two characters.

[SuperiorIronman]

Yes he would. He absolutely would. He's been trying that almost since day one. Spider-man had just been given validation by the Avengers and by extension the Government to be Spider-man and given all the resources he would need to operate. The man is publicly recognized as a hero. Why on Earth would he not side with Iron man? Say he initially sided with Captain America. He's saying his loved ones standard of living and safety is worth less than his secret identity. Peter's biggest blunder is that he released it publicly when he didn't have to. But that has no bearing on how he could then improve Spider-man and help the people he loves. Even then Spider-man's secret identity at the time was always worth a little less because Kaine, the symbiotes, Jackal, and more had been out there. What's the point in keeping it? Somebody either figures it out off of Kaine or Jackal. Whoever becomes the next Venom is going to figure it out quickly (and he did).

At the time it made perfect sense.

The thing is that even if Peter doesn't hold Tony in the same regard, Tony does to Peter. And that goes back to the whole respect thing that Peter has wanted that early on. Even if they don't see eye to eye, they still respect each other.

[Spidercide]

Yes he would. He absolutely would. He's been trying that almost since day one. Spider-man had just been given validation by the Avengers and by extension the Government to be Spider-man and given all the resources he would need to operate. The man is publicly recognized as a hero. Why on Earth would he not side with Iron man? Say he initially sided with Captain America. He's saying his loved ones standard of living and safety is worth less than his secret identity. Peter's biggest blunder is that he released it publicly when he didn't have to. But that has no bearing on how he could then improve Spider-man and help the people he loves. Even then Spider-man's secret identity at the time was always worth a little less because Kaine, the symbiotes, Jackal, and more had been out there. What's the point in keeping it? Somebody either figures it out off of Kaine or Jackal. Whoever becomes the next Venom is going to figure it out quickly (and he did).

At the time it made perfect sense.

The thing is that even if Peter doesn't hold Tony in the same regard, Tony does to Peter. And that goes back to the whole respect thing that Peter has wanted that early on. Even if they don't see eye to eye, they still respect each other.

Sorry. You are Super Saiyan powered wrong about this. Big time.

Let's start at the beginning.

Spider-Man would side with the government because he's been trying to do that since day 1.

Okay but...no he hasn't.

Let's put aside how his attempts to join the police were a retcon via Untold Tales, 15 y/o Spidey is a world apart from 30 y/o Spidey circa 2006.

Spider-Man never asked for, nor ever needed validation from anybody to be Spider-Man even a little bit.

On a meta-textual level this was part of the point. Spidey was created to be a somewhat counter cultural figure in the 1960s (an era defined by being counterculture). He was his own man who did things his own way., something of a rebel figure subtextually even if he was a straight shooting student in-universe.

But what makes that idea even more ridiculous is the inherent debate Civil War centres on.

Basically should superheroes be allowed to retain their anonymity or should they not be and be compelled to be part of the system.

You know that system that has historically falsely branded Spider-Man as a criminal, hunted and hounded him illegitimately, has totally failed to keep criminals in lock up over and over and over again and been shown by Spider-Man to be on various levels corrupt. Hell the Death of Jean DeWolff was about Spider-Man thinking the justice system is broken. He is fully aware of what it does to minorities given how he taught impoverished students who suffered due to it. And he's battled enemies like Norman Osborn and Jameson and Kingpin who've been shown to be immune or abused the system for their own means due to their wealth.

Hell Spider-Man witnessed the government payoff the Kingpin of all people after government agents shot at him for just trying to save people.

Spider-Man believes in justice, he does hold respect for police officers, but **** no he does not truly trust the government to just do the right thing. He 100% does not believe that the government making a law = the law is the right thing to do and to follow.

He is absolutely not a lawhead.

[Spidercide]

What is more Jesus God in Heaven Spider-Man would NEVER trust the government with something as precious as people's secret identities, let alone side with Tony to the point where he'd agree with banning anonymity for heroes or most of all going public himself. That last part was nuclear levels provably not what Spider-Man would ever do (and btw existed just to set up OMD so you know...)

Spider-Man has first hand experience via Norman Osborn, Venom and so many others of why he NEEDS a secret identity, why it is critically important for him to maintain one for the safety and sanity of himself (having a normal life is incredibly important to keeping him stable and high functioning as a hero) and everyone he knows.

And trusting the government with it?

The government who couldn't keep Venom locked up for even one year at a time.

The government who I kid you not shut down the safety precautions on CARNAGE's cell to cut costs.

The government that was dumb enough to give Doc Ock multiple means of escaping custody and who let him out on parole after he tried to take over a nuclear power station!


****. No.


Spider-Man would never ever trust those people with the lives of Aunt May or Mary Jane or you know...all those school children he taught who's parents he paid no mind to when he unmasked publicly even though it'd 100% endanger them and was incredibly irresponsible but of course it was because it was just a forced thing to happen to drive him towards OMD as I said.

NOW with all that said what WOULD have been in character and should have happened was Spider-Man sided with Iron Man after all for the sake of his family because going on the run would've been too much of a risk. In other words he'd side with Tony but 100% not agree with him or genuinely believe in his cause.

THAT would have made sense. But we didn't get that because Civil War is the trashiest of all trash mega events and Brevoor admitted they wrote everyone OOC to serve the plot.

[Spidercide]

It is also ridiculous to ask "What's the point in keeping his secret identity'. I don't know maybe because a handful of people knowing it is a lot less of a problem and a lot more manegable than literally everyone of the thousands of thousands of criminals with an axe to grind targetting him, his wife, his mother, his wif'es aunt, his sister-in-law, his nephews, his godson, his friends, his friends' friends and all the children he teaches.

Seriously dude that was a totally ridiculous statement and I think you knew that.

Like FFS EVERY story after he unmaksed showed you why there clearly WAS a point to keeping his identity secret. Or can you point me to all those other stories where Doc Ock attacked his school out of spite, where Swarm attacked MJ's play becauase he knew she was married to Spider-Man, where everything happened.

Your statement about him finally having the resources to be Spider-Man also doesn't hold up at all. First of all pre-Civil War he was living with the Avengers so he already had those resources but even before that he already had everything he needed.

He needed money to live off of and then provide for his equipment.

That's it.

He'd been getting by as Spider-Man with the limited resources at his disposal ever since he was 15 and that was when he didn't have the benefit of two regular paychecks from being a teacher and his wife acting/modelling.

Yeah with government support he could indeed have improved upon being Spider-Man with more tech and support.

But he'd be supporting a cause he felt was immoral; and was immoral as it turned out, hello Clone Thor and Negative Zone Guantanimo Bay and nanite enslaved super villain death squads and Norman Osborn taking over.

[Spidercide]

Also how the Hell does anyone figure it out off of Kaine or Jackal?

Jackal didn't want anyone to know clearly because he kept it to himself for well over five years. MOST of the villains who knew actually preferred to keep it a secret because THEY wanted to kill him they didn't want anyone else to. Like bro VENOM himself is aware that there is a point in keeping the numbers of people who know the secret small. Venom himself is contradicting your own logic.

As for Kaine...how though?

Kaine doesn't look like Peter Parker. Kaine desired to protect Peter Parker. Kaine had never and was never ever going to spill the beans about Peter and was in a constant state of degeneration back then anyway.

HOW was anyone going to figure this out off of Kaine?

Like torturing him wasn't going to do it. Kaine would have died for Peter and probably have preferred that since he was canonically suicidal.

So...how?

With the symbiotes the same stuff as the Jackal applies. Eddie Brock at times toyed with the idea of telling everyone Peter was Spider-Man but he forgot due to amnesia. However both the Venom AND Carnage symbiotes did know. Venom due to bonding with Peter and Carnage due to bonding with Ben Reilly. And neither bothered to tell their respective hosts. Hell Brock after his amnesia was even aware Venom knew who Spider-Man was but apparently didn't want to know (or else the symbiote didn't want to tell him). Brock REMEMBERED who Peter was when he unmasked. Kasady just never knew (well he did briefly but his memory was erased). Angelo Fortunato didn't know it by figuring it out either. He only found out because Brock told him the symbiote knew and might tell him if it asked him. So the symbiote that kept that secret from Brock decided to let Fortunato in on that secret and did so because it apparently liked him well enough and Angelo knew it knew in the first place so it asked.

Compare this to Anne Weying. Anne Weying bonded to the symbiote more than once in the 1990s and she NEVER knew Peter was Spider-Man. You don't just automatically GET that knowledge whenever you bond with the Venom symbiote. You have to be aware it knows that secret in the first place (which most people are unaware of, most people don't know Venom knows Spidey's true identity) and/or it has to decide to let you in on that secret which it (and Carnage) USUALLY doesn't.

It told Brock when they first bonded, but it didn't tell Anne Weying, it didn't tell Brock AGAIN after he got amnesia, it told Angelo with prompting, it didn't tell Flash after Darkest Hours in Superior, it didn't tell any of the Guardians it bonded with and as far as we know it hasn't told Eddie Brock Peter is Spider-Man since ASM #800 even though it 100% knows who he is again.

Similarly Carnage knew for a long time Peter was Spider-Man and even though it knew Kasady would want to know that it didn't tell him nor Eddie Brock when Eddie absorbed it.

Same deal with Chameleon. Chameleon did not want anyone to know who Spider-Man was but himself as evidenced by keeping that knowledge a secret since 1997!

Finally Peter may indeed have respected Stark, but not enough to go against what he fundamentally believed in and endanger his family for Tony or his cause.

And frankly after Tony you know...100% betrayed and threatened Peter in Civil War it's OOC and unrealistic for Peter to ever trust or respect him ever again as he has been shown to do since OMD. But you know...post-OMD Spider-Man acting OOC is called a day ending in Y.

In summary:

- No it's absolutely not in character for Spider-Man to believe in the pro-registration side
-No it was absolutely illogical for him to have unmasked
-Yes him siding with them begrudingly would have made sense but that's not what happened
-Its beyond ridiculous to assert there was no point in keeping his identity as opposed to...every point there could ever be even if some people (who clearly didn't want to tell anyone else) knew it.
-You didn't even answer the question from the OP.

People are allowed to have multiple relationships in their life.

Yes they are and yet said connection is nowhere to be found in the movies so...

[SuperiorIronman]

Sorry. You are Super Saiyan powered wrong about this. Big time.

Let's start at the beginning.

Spider-Man would side with the government because he's been trying to do that since day 1.

Okay but...no he hasn't.

Let's put aside how his attempts to join the police were a retcon via Untold Tales, 15 y/o Spidey is a world apart from 30 y/o Spidey circa 2006.

Spider-Man never asked for, nor ever needed validation from anybody to be Spider-Man even a little bit.

On a meta-textual level this was part of the point. Spidey was created to be a somewhat counter cultural figure in the 1960s (an era defined by being counterculture). He was his own man who did things his own way., something of a rebel figure subtextually even if he was a straight shooting student in-universe.

But what makes that idea even more ridiculous is the inherent debate Civil War centres on.

Basically should superheroes be allowed to retain their anonymity or should they not be and be compelled to be part of the system.

You know that system that has historically falsely branded Spider-Man as a criminal, hunted and hounded him illegitimately, has totally failed to keep criminals in lock up over and over and over again and been shown by Spider-Man to be on various levels corrupt. Hell the Death of Jean DeWolff was about Spider-Man thinking the justice system is broken. He is fully aware of what it does to minorities given how he taught impoverished students who suffered due to it. And he's battled enemies like Norman Osborn and Jameson and Kingpin who've been shown to be immune or abused the system for their own means due to their wealth.

Hell Spider-Man witnessed the government payoff the Kingpin of all people after government agents shot at him for just trying to save people.

Spider-Man believes in justice, he does hold respect for police officers, but **** no he does not truly trust the government to just do the right thing. He 100% does not believe that the government making a law = the law is the right thing to do and to follow.

He is absolutely not a lawhead.

Wut.

A lot of that is due to the fact that Spider-man is a vigilante who takes the law into their own hands. Something that as a civilian he is not allowed to do. Outside of corrupt cops, Peter Parker being Spider-man is illegal inherently not to mention the various laws he breaks going about that. And here comes the Government giving him express permission to do so.

Also I did answer your question because while they didn't have much of a relationship prior, with what became of Civil War, it made sense as to the connection. It's validation for what Peter is doing on a legal level. It's the law and the superhero community accepting him no questions asked because he is now totally in the right. As for why the connection keeps popping up, it's exactly because of that. Peter is the little guy but Peter has a voice to be head which is through the Iron man connection. You can't have someone who is a criminal at the end of the day be validated by Captain America.

Also I don't know if their is a limit to the amount of words in a post but you can use just one.

[Spidercide]

Wut.

A lot of that is due to the fact that Spider-man is a vigilante who takes the law into their own hands. Something that as a civilian he is not allowed to do. Outside of corrupt cops, Peter Parker being Spider-man is illegal inherently not to mention the various laws he breaks going about that. And here comes the Government giving him express permission to do so.

Also I did answer your question because while they didn't have much of a relationship prior, with what became of Civil War, it made sense as to the connection. It's validation for what Peter is doing on a legal level. It's the law and the superhero community accepting him no questions asked because he is now totally in the right. As for why the connection keeps popping up, it's exactly because of that. Peter is the little guy but Peter has a voice to be head which is through the Iron man connection. You can't have someone who is a criminal at the end of the day be validated by Captain America.

Also I don't know if their is a limit to the amount of words in a post but you can use just one.

Maybe a lot of that is due to him being a vigilante but most assuredly not all of it.


More importantly the government would NOT give him permission to do what he does. They were demanding he do it a certain way. So Spider-Man breaking and entering into the Bugle or wherever to reach a villain he knows has infiltrated it, or smashing up a car to save someone’s life, or taking a file he needs to get information on a major high tech weapons deal that’s going down that’s out of the police’s hands would be a serious no no if he worked for the government.


But he and every other superhero did those things for the greater good.


Would I WANT that in the real world?


No, absolutely not.


But that’s the conceit and the ‘rules’ of a superhero universe, part and parcel of the suspension of disbelief that comes with stuff like why the Hell does anyone still have cancer if cloning and mind transfers are a thing, why is death even that big of a deal when there are mutliple ways to resurrect people with no serious ramifications at all. Or Hell why does the Marvel and DC universe even vaguely resemble our own world when as Watchmen showed us the existence of a singular superpowered entity or alien life form would totally reshape the landscape of the world as we know it.



You also ignored what I said about anonymity. Spider-Man believes heroes need anonymity and they need it more than cops do. Yes the risks cops take legitimizes heroes having families and running those risks but at the same time minimizing those risks is neccesarry too because cops do not have to deal with guys like Venom. Spider-Man even states this in Mr. Parker Goes to Washington which led into Civil War (and was the first example of Tony being an outright villain in a Spider-Man book).



So in believing in anonymity as a civil right he’d side with Captain America in his heart of hearts and he sure as hell would never ever trust the government with something as precious as his secret identity, nor would he really trust that they wouldn’t misuse his ‘services’ to them.



Which realistically is totally a valid POV to take. In the real world governments and elites use police forces and other authorities as means of controlling the population and suppressing them (or in the case of minorities, persecuting them) more often than using them as a means of protecting the citizenry. This was Steve Rogers POV in the Civil War movie, that the governments would wish to use the power of the Avengers for their own selfish ends, or restrict them in their use for similar reasons.



Which if you remember...is exactly what happened in Ultimates 2. The US government used the Ultimates to invade the Middle East.


3 more bits of further food for thought.


a) Though it is of course non-canon Spider-Man expresses a certain anti-authority streak in the 2006 game Marvel Ultimate Alliance. Again non-canon but it was written around the time of Civil War and more poignantly reflects Spider-Ma’s own in-universe anti-authority streak. He doesn’t wholesale disbelieve in there being figures of authority, but he does not like taking orders and values his independence
b) David Michelinie pitched a story during his Spider-Man run wherein Pete’s identity would become public knowledge necessitating Peter seek witness protection for himself and his family. Only in exchange for that he’d have to perform some ‘jobs’ for the government that would be morally questionable. So the government would have exploited Spider-Man needing them to support him in light of his losing his anonymity and he’d have to morally compromise himself by doing immoral things in service of their agendas
c) Literally the Civil War storyline and various other storylines in the wake of it backed up what I am saying. Iron Man became an outright villain in Civil War, moreso in the tie-ins admittedly but again...Clor was a thing. Prison 42 was a thing. Nanite enslaved villains were a thing. Monitoring Spider-Man against his consent was a thing. And then it aaaaaaall led to of all people, Norman goddam Osborn rising to an immense position of power as a government sanctioned figure of authority. How were they in the right again?

Why should Spider-Man have trusted the government again? That same organization that was promising to protect the identities of so many people (and by extension everyone they knew) but also less than 10 years before (in-universe) also had an outright supervillain as a high ranking political figure/the President (see the OG Secret Empire).



Moving on oh my lord no, you did not anser my question even a little bit.



You never said if you as an Iron Man fan liked the affiliation between Peter and Tony I general or in any particular version (like the MCU). You never spoke about whether you felt it it added, subtracted or was just unnecessary for the Iron man franchise/mythos.



You did nothing except say that no Spider-Man WOULD have supported Tony. That’s a debate about Spider-Man characterization.



Which is NOT an answer to the question of what you think about the closer ties built between him and Tony. Notice how your original reply you know...didn’t mention Tony Stark all that much. It was pretty much entirely about Spider-Man and the government. In a question premeditated upon the character of Iron Man your answer barely featured him. So no, that’s absolutely not answering the question.


And now in this reply I am replying to you are doing it again.


You are talking Spider-Man characterization.




That isn’t the question.



As for Peter being the voice of the little guy that is true but...didn’t we hear that voice well enough for 40 years and 2 movies before he became Iron Man’s pseudo son?





As for you can’t have a criminal validated by Captain America at the end of the day...yeah you can. Literally every single Captain America story where he is friendly or supportive of Spider-Man, Daredevil, the X-Men or various other vigilantes ever proved that.



I mean what? You are saying ASM volume 2 #50 was...wrong? You are saying Cap inviting Spider-Man onto the New Avengers was...wrong? You are saying making Spider-Man a reserve member was wrong?



You say you can’t have that but...we did have that....multiple times.



And again in the context of a superhero universe Spider-Man and Daredevil (and yeah sorry, Thor and Iron Man himself at various points of thier histories) might be criminals but we know that they ultimately serve the greater good.



There is a word limit hence I used multiple posts.

[Spidercide]

You don't speak for me.

Respect is something Spider-man has wanted since BEFORE he became Spider-man. Peter is STARVED for respect. Why do you think the first thing he did when he got powers was to go into show-biz? He wanted respect. Spider-man is the Rodney Dangerfield of superheroes. he gets no respect.

When new Avengers started and Spidey joined the team, he started to get some respect ESPECIALLY from Tony, one of the smartest guys on the planet. Tony looked at Spider-man and what he's done and went "wow. You're actually a pretty smart guy. Want to help me out with some stuff?" And for somebody like Peter, that's very high praise indeed.

Then he was asked "hey, want to be Spider-man completely legally and with the government backing you? Plus I'll give you some really neat gadgets and a awesome place to live," hell you might as well have just asked him if he wanted to be the king of the world.

Now on a more fan-level, yeah I would agree that it does undermine Spider-man's loner status but honestly, EVERYBODY seems to hang out with each other all the time these days. It's more a problem with the industry right now that just Spider-man. Characters can't got more than a few issues without having gueststars and team-ups. It makes them less special.

Yeah you DID read the top part of the post right where I said most in my observation? As in I started my post with that so when I end it with from Spider-Fan’s POVs I obviously still mean ‘most in my observation’, not everyone.


Yeah I can see Spider-Man wanting respect. Here is the thing. What kind of stuff have you been reading to think Spider-Man would value respect for himself over his moral values?


And at the end of the day even if Peter wanted respect he could happily live without it. He isn’t STARVED for it and DESPERATE for it.


Or have we forgotten the teeny, tiny fact that he had more than enough respect as Prodigy and Hornet during the Identity Crisis storyline of the 1990s. Even in losing those costumes, there was no reason Peter couldn’t simply adopt a new identity akin to Prodigy (or just recreate the costume it wasn’t that hard).



But no...he CHOOSES to be Spider-Man, because it’s just who he is. He CHOOSES to adopt the identity he gets disrespected in because ultimately he kind of just likes being Spider-Man and because it’s a part of who he is at this point.


Your argument is premeditated upon the idea that Spider-Man would value respect from the public over his own sense of identity or his moral values. Or that he’s a respect whore and anyone who gives him enough of it can earn his undying loyalty.


He absolutely, provably would not.


It’s also rather questionable to bring up AF #15 considering you know...the moral of the story was that he learned that he was WRONG and changed in response to that.


Let’s talk Tony. Tony especially gave Peter respect sure....but not as much as Steve. History time kids....Iron Man was a dickhead to Spidey when he was initially offered Avengers membership. In fact ALL the Avengers were...except Captain America. Iron Man has even been a dick to Spider-Man since then. Cap, though he’s had his moments, generally speaking was a lot more even handed and respectful towards Spider-Man and gave him plenty of respect when he made him a reserve member even though he said (at that time) he wasn’t cut out for the main team. He was also the guy who recruited Peter in the first place.



So Steve has actually given Peter a lot of respect over the course of over a decade. And that respect is coming from the guy who not only everyobody in general respects (and respects way more than Iron Man, sorry but it’s true) but also someone idolized by Peter as a child. Someone who inspired Peter as a hero and whom Uncle Ben and Aunt May held enormous respect for themselves.



So in terms of who’s respect counts for more in Spider-Man’s eyes Cap>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Iron Man.



Let’s also look at what actually happened during Road to Civil War and Civil War in the Spider-Man titles. In ASM #530, Peter outright argues in Washington AGAINST registration. In ASM #532, he is incredibly uncertain about unmasking, considers going on the run and even almost does it if not for a timely intervention by Aunt May. He even states he isn’t sure that Tony wouldn’t out him if he didn’t unmask publically and side with him. He later begins to change his mind in ASM #534 after a battle with Captain America. Then of course in ASM #535 we get the infamous Guantanamo Bay allegory in the form of the Negative Zone Prison that finally sways Spider-Man against Iron Man. A reminder, that prison specified that heroes were detained there forever unless they agreed to register.



So Spider-Man broke away from Iron Man when he saw heroes like him who’d had their liberties taken away because they refused to comply with the same law he had complied with and would be continued to be denied those liberties until they did decide to comply with them. THAT is what led Spider-Man to leave Stark.



Now call me goddam crazy but it really doesn’t strike me looking at aaaaaaaaaaaall that that Spider-man is such a respect whore for Tony that he’d comply with what Tony wanted of him, go against Captain America, go against maintaining his anonymity which he’d been doing since his origin and go against the moral values he clearly held regarding civil liberties.



He didn’t fully trust Tony. He was going to go against him if not for convincing from MJ and May. He changed his mind in a way that didn’t really make sense if he actually believed in the moral argument of Tony’s side and prior to the Stamford incident he actively spoke out against it.



And this is even during the mischaracterization I was talking about because I think an in character Spider-Man would indeed have registered (because he’d have endangered May and MJ otherwise), but refused to go public (because he’d have again endangered May and MJ along with everyone else) and in his heart have believed in Cap’s side. In fact that would’ve been way more compelling that what we got. Spider-Man finally getting the public recognition and respect he’d been denied due to Jameson but it comes at the price of him begrudgingly selling out on what he believes in and fighting his friends and idol for the sake of his biggest responsibility, his family. From there you could even have had SPIder-Man acting as a SPY for Cap’s side as a way to live with himself and it’d touch upon his parents’ professions as CIA agents. Had he begrudgingly remained with the government things REALLY would’ve gotten interesting once Norman rose to power. See? Something new and interesting utilizing the set up from Civil War that all stems from Spider-Man acting IN character.




You also are frankly painting Spider-Man as egregiously more shallow and pathetic than he is. A few shiny gadgets and a sweet apartment is never going to sway him, he’s not that weak of a person, hence he’s never taken a bribe before. Moreover being Spider-Man legally is all well and good but the price was what wasn’t going to sell it on Peter. Being Spider-Man legally with gadgets and a cool place to live was never ever, ever going to convince him to agree with going against Cap, supporting hunting down other heroes, supporting putting heroes under government control and Jesus Christ was it never ever going to convince him to reveal his secret identity.



I’m sorry Alan but Spider-Man is simply not the shallow easily swayed (frankly kind of pathetic and childish) character you are painting him as in your above quote.



Spider-Man’s loner status wasn’t the issue. His characterization was.



Hell Spider-Man the loner being undermined had NOTHING to do with Civil War, that had been fucked up by New Avengers (and MTU from back in the day).



Whilst it is true everybody seems to hang out together these days...why is that a good thing? Why should we just accept that?



Why do comic book fans on this board have this weird....complacency wherein “Well this is what it is so that’s just it is all.”


Everybody being in everybody else’s book is a bad thing creatively speaking a lot of the time, especially in a series like Spider-Man where a) He’s supposed to be street level so having Thor show up is rather distracting b) he has the best supporting cast and villains in the MU. We literally do not need all these spare heroes showing up and forcing Spidey to share the spotlight. If you wanna do that okay make a MTU book specifically for that but leave ASm as the place where you get Spider-Man and just Spider-Man 99% of the time. c) If everyone is in everyone else’s book it makes guest stars meaningless. Like remember when Daredevil showing up in Spider-Man was something noteworthy like “Oh cool we don’t see that everyday I’ll check that out”. But now it’s like “random cameo from DD and Wolverine and the Torch because why not, gotta remind you to buy their books now.” Which yeah Stan did in Annual #1 but that wasn’t a regular occurrence.

[okiedokiewo]

Heck it also undermines the connection between Spider-Man and Captain America who actually has a more significant connection to Peter. He was Peter’s childhood idol as a superhero (see ASM Minus 1), got referenced in the debut of Carnage, played a n important role in Maximum Carnage and even helped Peter and MJ get back together a little. Heck his and Spider-Man teaming up was important for setting the stage for Kraven’s Last Hunt. In a very real sense if Uncle Ben is who Peter tries to be as a man, then Captain America is who he tries to be as a hero. Not Iron Man.

People are allowed to have multiple relationships in their life.

[Daniel22]

Speaking as a huge Spider-Man fan here, I and most other Spider-Man comic fans I’ve encountered really, really, really, really, really despise Iron Man’s involvement in Spider-Man lore in recent years.

From the stuff in Civil War 2006 (in which Spidey agreed with Tony against Steve which he’d NEVER do), to his presence in ‘Power Play’ in 2016, his father/son dynamic in the movies and the general pushing of the idea that Iron Man is an important part of Spider-Man’s story (with modern media and merch pushing the idea that he’s like tied up in Spidey’s origin and early days).

For us it is unnecessary, undermines Spider-Man’s independence (especially early on) which was part of Lee and Ditko’s whole vision for the character and generally speaking we prefer Spidey to interact with Spidey specific characters rather than guys from other titles (Human Torch and Daredevil not withstanding).

Heck it also undermines the connection between Spider-Man and Captain America who actually has a more significant connection to Peter. He was Peter’s childhood idol as a superhero (see ASM Minus 1), got referenced in the debut of Carnage, played a n important role in Maximum Carnage and even helped Peter and MJ get back together a little. Heck his and Spider-Man teaming up was important for setting the stage for Kraven’s Last Hunt. In a very real sense if Uncle Ben is who Peter tries to be as a man, then Captain America is who he tries to be as a hero. Not Iron Man.

But that’s from Spider-Fans’ POVs. I am curious to know what Iron Fans actually think of the greater connections Marvel have tried to make between the two characters.

I think your argument would hold more weight if you just spoke for yourself. When you attempt to speak for other people it comes across as a transparent attempt to give your personal opinion more weight. I don't doubt that you have spoken to other people who hold the same opinion... I have heard those same opinions. But saying "us" and "from Spider-Fans' POV" doesn't add cache to your personal opinion. You are framing the argument as Spider-Fans against non-Spider Fans, basically trying to say that if someone doesn't agree with you on this point they aren't a Spider-Fan, or they are in the minority, which is both not able to be proven and not relevant to your personal opinion.

[MichaelC]

Everyone was out of character in Civil War, especially Iron Man, who would never side with the government because that would mean giving them access to his more dangerous technology. He literally abandoned Stark Industries when Nick Fury tried to take it over.

As for Tony and Peter forming a relationship: they are both science-nerds. Tony and Peter have far more in common on a fundamental level than Peter and Rogers. What on earth does Peter have in common with a soldier from the forties?

[Huntsman Spider]

Everyone was out of character in Civil War, especially Iron Man, who would never side with the government because that would mean giving them access to his more dangerous technology. He literally abandoned Stark Industries when Nick Fury tried to take it over.

As for Tony and Peter forming a relationship: they are both science-nerds. Tony and Peter have far more in common on a fundamental level than Peter and Rogers. What on earth does Peter have in common with a soldier from the forties?

A surprising lot, actually. They both grew up poor, they were both physically weak nerds that by happenstance were granted enhancements that made them significantly stronger, faster, and more agile (Steve at a "peak human" level and Peter at a genuinely superhuman level) than they would ever be on their own, neither of them suffer bullies lightly, they both have a very strong sense of personal responsibility and moral obligation that drives them to use their enhanced abilities for the protection and hopefully betterment of others around them, and in most instances, they're the most resolute in following their moral and ethical standards, despite the internal and external conflicts this has caused for both of them.

[Spidercide]

A surprising lot, actually. They both grew up poor, they were both physically weak nerds that by happenstance were granted enhancements that made them significantly stronger, faster, and more agile (Steve at a "peak human" level and Peter at a genuinely superhuman level) than they would ever be on their own, neither of them suffer bullies lightly, they both have a very strong sense of personal responsibility and moral obligation that drives them to use their enhanced abilities for the protection and hopefully betterment of others around them, and in most instances, they're the most resolute in following their moral and ethical standards, despite the internal and external conflicts this has caused for both of them.

Also they're both Irish

[Spidercide]

Everyone was out of character in Civil War, especially Iron Man, who would never side with the government because that would mean giving them access to his more dangerous technology. He literally abandoned Stark Industries when Nick Fury tried to take it over.

As for Tony and Peter forming a relationship: they are both science-nerds. Tony and Peter have far more in common on a fundamental level than Peter and Rogers. What on earth does Peter have in common with a soldier from the forties?

You misunderstand. Cap and Spidey had a closer relationship not because they had so much in common (Peter had science nerdom in common with Carlie Cooper but is clearly much closer to Betty Brant and Flash who have even less in common with him) but because Spidey saw him as the person to shoot for as a hero. He literally imagined being Cap as a child and they had this big brother/little brother dynamic going too.


Plus...Reed and Peter have more in common that Peter and Johnny or Peter and Ben but he's clearly closer to them than to Reed.