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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    You don't speak for me.

    Respect is something Spider-man has wanted since BEFORE he became Spider-man. Peter is STARVED for respect. Why do you think the first thing he did when he got powers was to go into show-biz? He wanted respect. Spider-man is the Rodney Dangerfield of superheroes. he gets no respect.

    When new Avengers started and Spidey joined the team, he started to get some respect ESPECIALLY from Tony, one of the smartest guys on the planet. Tony looked at Spider-man and what he's done and went "wow. You're actually a pretty smart guy. Want to help me out with some stuff?" And for somebody like Peter, that's very high praise indeed.

    Then he was asked "hey, want to be Spider-man completely legally and with the government backing you? Plus I'll give you some really neat gadgets and a awesome place to live," hell you might as well have just asked him if he wanted to be the king of the world.

    Now on a more fan-level, yeah I would agree that it does undermine Spider-man's loner status but honestly, EVERYBODY seems to hang out with each other all the time these days. It's more a problem with the industry right now that just Spider-man. Characters can't got more than a few issues without having gueststars and team-ups. It makes them less special.

    Yeah you DID read the top part of the post right where I said most in my observation? As in I started my post with that so when I end it with from Spider-Fan’s POVs I obviously still mean ‘most in my observation’, not everyone.


    Yeah I can see Spider-Man wanting respect. Here is the thing. What kind of stuff have you been reading to think Spider-Man would value respect for himself over his moral values?


    And at the end of the day even if Peter wanted respect he could happily live without it. He isn’t STARVED for it and DESPERATE for it.


    Or have we forgotten the teeny, tiny fact that he had more than enough respect as Prodigy and Hornet during the Identity Crisis storyline of the 1990s. Even in losing those costumes, there was no reason Peter couldn’t simply adopt a new identity akin to Prodigy (or just recreate the costume it wasn’t that hard).



    But no...he CHOOSES to be Spider-Man, because it’s just who he is. He CHOOSES to adopt the identity he gets disrespected in because ultimately he kind of just likes being Spider-Man and because it’s a part of who he is at this point.


    Your argument is premeditated upon the idea that Spider-Man would value respect from the public over his own sense of identity or his moral values. Or that he’s a respect whore and anyone who gives him enough of it can earn his undying loyalty.


    He absolutely, provably would not.


    It’s also rather questionable to bring up AF #15 considering you know...the moral of the story was that he learned that he was WRONG and changed in response to that.


    Let’s talk Tony. Tony especially gave Peter respect sure....but not as much as Steve. History time kids....Iron Man was a dickhead to Spidey when he was initially offered Avengers membership. In fact ALL the Avengers were...except Captain America. Iron Man has even been a dick to Spider-Man since then. Cap, though he’s had his moments, generally speaking was a lot more even handed and respectful towards Spider-Man and gave him plenty of respect when he made him a reserve member even though he said (at that time) he wasn’t cut out for the main team. He was also the guy who recruited Peter in the first place.



    So Steve has actually given Peter a lot of respect over the course of over a decade. And that respect is coming from the guy who not only everyobody in general respects (and respects way more than Iron Man, sorry but it’s true) but also someone idolized by Peter as a child. Someone who inspired Peter as a hero and whom Uncle Ben and Aunt May held enormous respect for themselves.



    So in terms of who’s respect counts for more in Spider-Man’s eyes Cap>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Iron Man.



    Let’s also look at what actually happened during Road to Civil War and Civil War in the Spider-Man titles. In ASM #530, Peter outright argues in Washington AGAINST registration. In ASM #532, he is incredibly uncertain about unmasking, considers going on the run and even almost does it if not for a timely intervention by Aunt May. He even states he isn’t sure that Tony wouldn’t out him if he didn’t unmask publically and side with him. He later begins to change his mind in ASM #534 after a battle with Captain America. Then of course in ASM #535 we get the infamous Guantanamo Bay allegory in the form of the Negative Zone Prison that finally sways Spider-Man against Iron Man. A reminder, that prison specified that heroes were detained there forever unless they agreed to register.



    So Spider-Man broke away from Iron Man when he saw heroes like him who’d had their liberties taken away because they refused to comply with the same law he had complied with and would be continued to be denied those liberties until they did decide to comply with them. THAT is what led Spider-Man to leave Stark.



    Now call me goddam crazy but it really doesn’t strike me looking at aaaaaaaaaaaall that that Spider-man is such a respect whore for Tony that he’d comply with what Tony wanted of him, go against Captain America, go against maintaining his anonymity which he’d been doing since his origin and go against the moral values he clearly held regarding civil liberties.



    He didn’t fully trust Tony. He was going to go against him if not for convincing from MJ and May. He changed his mind in a way that didn’t really make sense if he actually believed in the moral argument of Tony’s side and prior to the Stamford incident he actively spoke out against it.



    And this is even during the mischaracterization I was talking about because I think an in character Spider-Man would indeed have registered (because he’d have endangered May and MJ otherwise), but refused to go public (because he’d have again endangered May and MJ along with everyone else) and in his heart have believed in Cap’s side. In fact that would’ve been way more compelling that what we got. Spider-Man finally getting the public recognition and respect he’d been denied due to Jameson but it comes at the price of him begrudgingly selling out on what he believes in and fighting his friends and idol for the sake of his biggest responsibility, his family. From there you could even have had SPIder-Man acting as a SPY for Cap’s side as a way to live with himself and it’d touch upon his parents’ professions as CIA agents. Had he begrudgingly remained with the government things REALLY would’ve gotten interesting once Norman rose to power. See? Something new and interesting utilizing the set up from Civil War that all stems from Spider-Man acting IN character.




    You also are frankly painting Spider-Man as egregiously more shallow and pathetic than he is. A few shiny gadgets and a sweet apartment is never going to sway him, he’s not that weak of a person, hence he’s never taken a bribe before. Moreover being Spider-Man legally is all well and good but the price was what wasn’t going to sell it on Peter. Being Spider-Man legally with gadgets and a cool place to live was never ever, ever going to convince him to agree with going against Cap, supporting hunting down other heroes, supporting putting heroes under government control and Jesus Christ was it never ever going to convince him to reveal his secret identity.



    I’m sorry Alan but Spider-Man is simply not the shallow easily swayed (frankly kind of pathetic and childish) character you are painting him as in your above quote.



    Spider-Man’s loner status wasn’t the issue. His characterization was.



    Hell Spider-Man the loner being undermined had NOTHING to do with Civil War, that had been fucked up by New Avengers (and MTU from back in the day).



    Whilst it is true everybody seems to hang out together these days...why is that a good thing? Why should we just accept that?



    Why do comic book fans on this board have this weird....complacency wherein “Well this is what it is so that’s just it is all.”


    Everybody being in everybody else’s book is a bad thing creatively speaking a lot of the time, especially in a series like Spider-Man where a) He’s supposed to be street level so having Thor show up is rather distracting b) he has the best supporting cast and villains in the MU. We literally do not need all these spare heroes showing up and forcing Spidey to share the spotlight. If you wanna do that okay make a MTU book specifically for that but leave ASm as the place where you get Spider-Man and just Spider-Man 99% of the time. c) If everyone is in everyone else’s book it makes guest stars meaningless. Like remember when Daredevil showing up in Spider-Man was something noteworthy like “Oh cool we don’t see that everyday I’ll check that out”. But now it’s like “random cameo from DD and Wolverine and the Torch because why not, gotta remind you to buy their books now.” Which yeah Stan did in Annual #1 but that wasn’t a regular occurrence.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    This is my 2 cents. I know a lot of people hate Tony and don't want him around their favorite characters. It's been since Civil War. People still hold on to that when it's been done back in 2007. Now, I like the relationship between Tony and Peter. It makes sense because Tony sees a little of himself in Peter. That's why Tony was mentoring him. He was teaching Peter to get into the science of inventing more. He knew Peter often gets himself in bad predicaments and was trying show him different ways of seeing things. How do people think about what Peter has been doing recently. Let's see. He has been inventing more. He started his own company. Made an AI to help run his company. He started to using more armor type costumes to battle different villains and creating costumes that were they would come over him like a liquid or nanites. Does that sound familiar?! Were do you think he got his business model from?! He learned all of that from Tony. So I don't know why Peter's fans don't like Tony being around him. Tony thought him to step his game science wise. For him to build his own company. Tony taught him well. Again I don't get the hate, because Tony mentoring Peter has had a tremendously positive effect.


    Bro frankly can you really blame them for hating Tony after Civil War? He was written hardcore OOC I know but like he was literally written as a villain in many, many books. Frankly they need to like retcon that he was being mind controlled or something.



    Actually Otto started that company (and IIRC made that AI), Peter just took the credit for it because what is responsibility again?


    As for where Peter got his business model from again...I think that was Otto and/or Anna Maria.


    Saaaaaaaame with him building his own company. Peter didnít have the idea or desire to do that, Otto did.



    As for why Peter fans donít like him being around Tony itís because a lot of Peter fans (and yes Iíd place money on most, notice how I didnít say itís ALL or DEFINITLY most) actively hate the stuff you listed. I mean you are right he did that stuff recently but there is a difference between something happening recently and people liking it. Frankly a lot of Peter fans saw Parker Industries as Spider-man being written as Iron Man and therefore hated it because they wanted to see Spider-Man written as Spider-Man...which call me crazy but isnít an unreasonable desire.



    They want growth and development and new stuff for sure but within the context of Peter being a down to Earth, street level, relatively ordinary working-middle class everyman who fights street punks in NYC along with his traditional rogueís gallery all whilst wearing a costume and using equiptment that could be (relatively) home spun and low tech. Because...thatís Spider-Man...



    Also regarding Tony mentoring Peter having a positive effect...didnít his mentoring of him ultimately lead to OMD...? Tony mentored him, therefore he pushed him to unmask, then Tony betrayed him, then Peter was a fugitive, then Aunt May was shot and here comes Mephisto. Like...Tony is directly implicated in all that. Not HIS fault mind you but he was clearly a contributing factor. For most Spider-Man fans I do not think any amount of armor or tech companies justifies that.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    A surprising lot, actually. They both grew up poor, they were both physically weak nerds that by happenstance were granted enhancements that made them significantly stronger, faster, and more agile (Steve at a "peak human" level and Peter at a genuinely superhuman level) than they would ever be on their own, neither of them suffer bullies lightly, they both have a very strong sense of personal responsibility and moral obligation that drives them to use their enhanced abilities for the protection and hopefully betterment of others around them, and in most instances, they're the most resolute in following their moral and ethical standards, despite the internal and external conflicts this has caused for both of them.
    Also they're both Irish

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    I think your argument would hold more weight if you just spoke for yourself. When you attempt to speak for other people it comes across as a transparent attempt to give your personal opinion more weight. I don't doubt that you have spoken to other people who hold the same opinion... I have heard those same opinions. But saying "us" and "from Spider-Fans' POV" doesn't add cache to your personal opinion. You are framing the argument as Spider-Fans against non-Spider Fans, basically trying to say that if someone doesn't agree with you on this point they aren't a Spider-Fan, or they are in the minority, which is both not able to be proven and not relevant to your personal opinion.
    Iím not just speaking for myself though. Most Spider-Man comic book fans really do dislike the deepening connections made between him and Iron Man. I mean what? You are saying I should just speak for myself instead of saying most Spider-Man fans didnít like the Clone Saga or One More Day?



    Those wouldnít be transparent attempts at anything, itís just the actual state of play. As is this.



    Notice I qualified my statement with Ďmostí and ĎIíve encounteredí.



    If you are not one of those people cool. Itís not a ĎIíve spoken to some who feel the same wayí. Itís a ĎI literally come across views along those lines whenever the topic comes up in almost any given group of Spider-Man comic book fansí.



    Hence Ďmost Iíve encounteredí. Hell I even qualified that I was talking comic fans not Spider-Man fans in general which would include non-comic fans such as the movie, tv, video game, toy and broadly speaking anything Spider-Man crowd who do not necessarily feel the same way. I know a lot, probably even most movie Spider-Man fans are cool with this dynamic.



    I wasnít trying to add Ďcacheí to my personal opinion. I was being honest. I am a Spider-Man fan and from my POV as a Spider-Man fan this is how I feel about this relationship between Spider-Man and this other character who has a huge fanbase of his own and is on the same level as Spider-man as a protagonist superhero character headlining his own series and having done so for decades.



    Itís like qualifying how youíd feel about Black Panther and Stormís relationship from the POV of a BC fan or the POV of a Storm/X-Men fan, because those are not necessarily going to be the same thing and the thread was made specifically to inquire about how the other side feels.



    Another example. Talking about how you as an X-Men fan felt about AvX or IvX (in my observations, they hate both) but being unfamiliar with the Avengers fanbase or the Inhumans fanbase (does that even exist?) to the point where you want to know what they think. But first adding context by stating how you feel about it and how other people in your fanbase in your observations feel about it.


    Iím not framing the argument as anything. YOU are choosing to interpret it that way when it wasnít otherwise why on Earth would I even have bothered to come to this particular forum and ask what Iron Man fans felt like?



    It wasnít even ABOUT what Spider-Man fans think, that was all context. Explaining how again I and IN MY OBSERVATIONS most Spider-Man fans feel.


    As in ďThis is how this group of people feel about this situation that involves this thing weíre interested in that also involves this other thing that this other group of people are interested in. What does that other group think about the situation.Ē



    It was never saying you arneít a Spider-Man fan if you donít see it that way because itís asking what IRON MAN fans think about this situation.



    Again YOU took it that way (somehow, I was pretty fucking clear it was just how I felt and how Iíd observed other people feeling, I wasnít stating yeah 100% everyone or most Spider-Man fans feel this way, words have meaning as do the sentences and paragraphs they form).


    Thatís what I did but you know thank you so much for trying to undermine me and paint me as disingenuous. Real classy there.



    P.S. Also...it kinda is able to be proven technically speaking you could just go to different hubs of Spider-Man comic fans and observe what they think

  5. #20
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    I understand and respect all the arguments that long time Spider fans have against this choice.

    But I think Spider Man is a character who needs to stay relatable to a major public. That's the magic. Maybe that idea of a boy that Stan Lee created in 60's needed some update to speak more closely to the bigger audience. A boy who is a nerd, love science, is little awkward and would love to fight alongside Iron Man is the regular boy from this decade. Everyone can relate to this if they preserve the core of Spider Man ideia.

    At same time, is a way to humanize Tony Stark as character. Because is a new territory for IM have someone to care and guide. It was edgy if we think. The obvious choice to big brother/father figure is Steve. Everyone look up to Captain America . So a guy like Tony in this position is unexpected, gives room to see some development. Works for both characters. Of course the great chemistry between RDJ and Tom Holland helps a lot. In cartoons the same situation, I think.

    In comics I think that makes sense. I can see Peter respecting Tony and Tony seeing in Peter a younger version of himself, even if Peter can't agree with Tony's ways all the time. Worked fine in Civil War, even with the out of character problem. Of course the age difference between them is smaller and Peter is a man there. So, things need to be a little different. But the interactions are fine, specially because it can bring plots to explore Peter as a science man and open to new situations that characters too close in concept like Peter and Steve can't explore.

    The thing is, the close relationship worked really well and seems that a large part of the bigger audience recived well the ideia. Speaking for myself, I love it. It's really cute, specially in cartoons.

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    And about depending on Tony. I think is more practical issue. Spider-Man is Marvel biggest name. And now he is in MCU. Of course have this character in Avengers franchise is going to raise the profit. But The Avengers in movies always deals with huge powerful threats. So how could a young, completely self made and poor teenager stand up against this? The Stark tech and their close relationship are an explanation.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    Bro frankly can you really blame them for hating Tony after Civil War? He was written hardcore OOC I know but like he was literally written as a villain in many, many books. Frankly they need to like retcon that he was being mind controlled or something.



    Actually Otto started that company (and IIRC made that AI), Peter just took the credit for it because what is responsibility again?


    As for where Peter got his business model from again...I think that was Otto and/or Anna Maria.


    Saaaaaaaame with him building his own company. Peter didn’t have the idea or desire to do that, Otto did.



    As for why Peter fans don’t like him being around Tony it’s because a lot of Peter fans (and yes I’d place money on most, notice how I didn’t say it’s ALL or DEFINITLY most) actively hate the stuff you listed. I mean you are right he did that stuff recently but there is a difference between something happening recently and people liking it. Frankly a lot of Peter fans saw Parker Industries as Spider-man being written as Iron Man and therefore hated it because they wanted to see Spider-Man written as Spider-Man...which call me crazy but isn’t an unreasonable desire.



    They want growth and development and new stuff for sure but within the context of Peter being a down to Earth, street level, relatively ordinary working-middle class everyman who fights street punks in NYC along with his traditional rogue’s gallery all whilst wearing a costume and using equiptment that could be (relatively) home spun and low tech. Because...that’s Spider-Man...



    Also regarding Tony mentoring Peter having a positive effect...didn’t his mentoring of him ultimately lead to OMD...? Tony mentored him, therefore he pushed him to unmask, then Tony betrayed him, then Peter was a fugitive, then Aunt May was shot and here comes Mephisto. Like...Tony is directly implicated in all that. Not HIS fault mind you but he was clearly a contributing factor. For most Spider-Man fans I do not think any amount of armor or tech companies justifies that.
    Ock might have started it, but everything else was patterned after Stark. This is not the first time on here that a Spider-Man fan has told me that OMD comes down to being Tony's fault or partly his. Peter changed sides. Tony didn't betray him. Also nobody held a gun to Peter's head to unmask himself to the pubic. That was his choice. I don't want them to retcon Tony for Civil War, because it thought him a lot what he would have to do to go forward. Tony lost a lot do to Civil War. Was some of it OOC to me? Yes., but it's canon now. The characters have moved on since Civil War. It can't be helped that some fans can't. There has even been a second Civil War since then.
    Last edited by Tony Stark; 07-18-2018 at 08:52 PM.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ana View Post
    I understand and respect all the arguments that long time Spider fans have against this choice.

    But I think Spider Man is a character who needs to stay relatable to a major public. That's the magic. Maybe that idea of a boy that Stan Lee created in 60's needed some update to speak more closely to the bigger audience. A boy who is a nerd, love science, is little awkward and would love to fight alongside Iron Man is the regular boy from this decade. Everyone can relate to this if they preserve the core of Spider Man ideia.

    At same time, is a way to humanize Tony Stark as character. Because is a new territory for IM have someone to care and guide. It was edgy if we think. The obvious choice to big brother/father figure is Steve. Everyone look up to Captain America . So a guy like Tony in this position is unexpected, gives room to see some development. Works for both characters. Of course the great chemistry between RDJ and Tom Holland helps a lot. In cartoons the same situation, I think.

    In comics I think that makes sense. I can see Peter respecting Tony and Tony seeing in Peter a younger version of himself, even if Peter can't agree with Tony's ways all the time. Worked fine in Civil War, even with the out of character problem. Of course the age difference between them is smaller and Peter is a man there. So, things need to be a little different. But the interactions are fine, specially because it can bring plots to explore Peter as a science man and open to new situations that characters too close in concept like Peter and Steve can't explore.

    The thing is, the close relationship worked really well and seems that a large part of the bigger audience recived well the ideia. Speaking for myself, I love it. It's really cute, specially in cartoons.
    A lot of what is stated here is how I look at Tony and Peters relationship. Well stated. Tony helped Peter step his science game up and Peter was showing Tony how with great power comes great responsibility. They both rubbed off on each other.
    Last edited by Tony Stark; 07-18-2018 at 08:56 PM.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    Iím not just speaking for myself though. Most Spider-Man comic book fans really do dislike the deepening connections made between him and Iron Man. I mean what? You are saying I should just speak for myself instead of saying most Spider-Man fans didnít like the Clone Saga or One More Day?



    Those wouldnít be transparent attempts at anything, itís just the actual state of play. As is this.



    Notice I qualified my statement with Ďmostí and ĎIíve encounteredí.



    If you are not one of those people cool. Itís not a ĎIíve spoken to some who feel the same wayí. Itís a ĎI literally come across views along those lines whenever the topic comes up in almost any given group of Spider-Man comic book fansí.



    Hence Ďmost Iíve encounteredí. Hell I even qualified that I was talking comic fans not Spider-Man fans in general which would include non-comic fans such as the movie, tv, video game, toy and broadly speaking anything Spider-Man crowd who do not necessarily feel the same way. I know a lot, probably even most movie Spider-Man fans are cool with this dynamic.



    I wasnít trying to add Ďcacheí to my personal opinion. I was being honest. I am a Spider-Man fan and from my POV as a Spider-Man fan this is how I feel about this relationship between Spider-Man and this other character who has a huge fanbase of his own and is on the same level as Spider-man as a protagonist superhero character headlining his own series and having done so for decades.



    Itís like qualifying how youíd feel about Black Panther and Stormís relationship from the POV of a BC fan or the POV of a Storm/X-Men fan, because those are not necessarily going to be the same thing and the thread was made specifically to inquire about how the other side feels.



    Another example. Talking about how you as an X-Men fan felt about AvX or IvX (in my observations, they hate both) but being unfamiliar with the Avengers fanbase or the Inhumans fanbase (does that even exist?) to the point where you want to know what they think. But first adding context by stating how you feel about it and how other people in your fanbase in your observations feel about it.


    Iím not framing the argument as anything. YOU are choosing to interpret it that way when it wasnít otherwise why on Earth would I even have bothered to come to this particular forum and ask what Iron Man fans felt like?



    It wasnít even ABOUT what Spider-Man fans think, that was all context. Explaining how again I and IN MY OBSERVATIONS most Spider-Man fans feel.


    As in ďThis is how this group of people feel about this situation that involves this thing weíre interested in that also involves this other thing that this other group of people are interested in. What does that other group think about the situation.Ē



    It was never saying you arneít a Spider-Man fan if you donít see it that way because itís asking what IRON MAN fans think about this situation.



    Again YOU took it that way (somehow, I was pretty fucking clear it was just how I felt and how Iíd observed other people feeling, I wasnít stating yeah 100% everyone or most Spider-Man fans feel this way, words have meaning as do the sentences and paragraphs they form).


    Thatís what I did but you know thank you so much for trying to undermine me and paint me as disingenuous. Real classy there.



    P.S. Also...it kinda is able to be proven technically speaking you could just go to different hubs of Spider-Man comic fans and observe what they think
    That right there is exactly what he is talking about. ďMost fansĒ? Nomthe handfull of poster you keep on writing with. There is no evidence to suggest your claim there so what he said was completely true.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ana View Post
    I understand and respect all the arguments that long time Spider fans have against this choice.

    But I think Spider Man is a character who needs to stay relatable to a major public. That's the magic. Maybe that idea of a boy that Stan Lee created in 60's needed some update to speak more closely to the bigger audience. A boy who is a nerd, love science, is little awkward and would love to fight alongside Iron Man is the regular boy from this decade. Everyone can relate to this if they preserve the core of Spider Man ideia.

    At same time, is a way to humanize Tony Stark as character. Because is a new territory for IM have someone to care and guide. It was edgy if we think. The obvious choice to big brother/father figure is Steve. Everyone look up to Captain America . So a guy like Tony in this position is unexpected, gives room to see some development. Works for both characters. Of course the great chemistry between RDJ and Tom Holland helps a lot. In cartoons the same situation, I think.

    In comics I think that makes sense. I can see Peter respecting Tony and Tony seeing in Peter a younger version of himself, even if Peter can't agree with Tony's ways all the time. Worked fine in Civil War, even with the out of character problem. Of course the age difference between them is smaller and Peter is a man there. So, things need to be a little different. But the interactions are fine, specially because it can bring plots to explore Peter as a science man and open to new situations that characters too close in concept like Peter and Steve can't explore.

    The thing is, the close relationship worked really well and seems that a large part of the bigger audience recived well the ideia. Speaking for myself, I love it. It's really cute, specially in cartoons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ana View Post
    And about depending on Tony. I think is more practical issue. Spider-Man is Marvel biggest name. And now he is in MCU. Of course have this character in Avengers franchise is going to raise the profit. But The Avengers in movies always deals with huge powerful threats. So how could a young, completely self made and poor teenager stand up against this? The Stark tech and their close relationship are an explanation.

    See I dunno about that. I mean loving science and being socially awkward was not irregular in the 1960s. Wanting to fight alongside Iron Man is a common desire nowdays but at the same time it isn’t like it’s universal that everyone would like Iron Man. And I kind of disbelieve in the notion of changing characters personalities in service of their concepts even if we do go with that idea.

    Like Spider-Man as the hero who is independent and nobody’s junior (as he is in the movies) was incredibly important to the whole point of his character in addition to being a relatively relatable guy. At the end of the day does it really break Spider-Man’s relatability if he isn’t an Iron Man/Avengers fanboy and prefers to be independant? I mean I think that’s getting a little too meta. Like in the real world we love Iron Man therefore as a reflection of that Spider-Man should too.

    But teen Spider-Man valued his independence and Iron Man in the movies grossly undermines that so is Iron Man a stand in for Iron Man’s place in the real world or is he in-universe symbolizing authority and parental overture?

    I think a lot of comic book Spider-Man fans say he’s the latter and that having this angle of Spidey being a Avengers fanboy and being Tony’s son which wasn’t in the original Ditko era stories and goes against part of the point of early days Spidey is worse than if he just happened to be a relatable kid today in most respects exempting the fact that he isn’t an Avengers fanboy. Like they want to see Spider-Man acting as Spider-Man did/does back tweaked slightly to be modern, kind of like in the Spec cartoon. Spec cartoon Spidey was essentially Ditko Spider-Man tailored to fit a 2008 kids cartoon audience.

    Plus...it’s not like every kid on Earth likes Iron Man I’m sure, anymore than every kid of the 80s and 90s liked Michael Jackson.

    I get that it humanizes Stark and I think that’s where MCU Iron Man fans really like the relationship. Whereas Spidey comic book fans in my observation feel like it’s kind of developing Stark at the expense of Spider-Man being Spider-Man.


    Which works from the POV of if you look at MCU Spider-Man in isolation, but I think a lot of comic Spidey fans are looking at it from an adaptation POV. Like how well are you capturing the core spirit of Spider-Man.

    I don’t see your point in cartoons though, but then again in the USm cartoon frankly Spider-Man wasn’t a good character in general because every new Marvel cartoon since USM began hasn’t been very good (though I’ve not seen rising to say). The last good Marvel cartoon frankly was EMH.

    I could see comic Peter respecting Tony pre-Civil War but not after it. Not after what Tony did and specifically did to him. Same with him respecting Tony even when he asked him to unmask.

    When I say Peter wouldn’t believe in Tony’s side of the Civil War (which btw in my observations it was hardcore OOC for Tony to support the pro-reg side anyway) I’m not saying he’d automatically lose all respect for him. I’m saying he’d never agree with him but he’d respect him as a person up until he began acting like a villain.


    The age difference is the reason I’ve always felt Iron Dad in the comics was stupid. Peter is literally too old to be Tony’s son in the comics. Circa Civil War Peter was 30 years old and at the biggest of pushes Stark was what? Maybe late 30s? If they’d said big and little brother sure, but they kept claiming it was a father/son thing, which didn’t make sense.


    The thing with exploring the science stuff between Tony and Peter (even though Peter did that alot on his own after all) is that it always seemed to obscure the way more compelling and interesting thing to explore between them.


    Class and responsibility.



    Peter is working class, an employee and struggles with responsibilities within that context such as supporting a family.


    Tony is an upper class employer who struggles with the responsibilities within that context such as supporting the jobs of his employees.

    And their origins carry similar themes. Each had gifts they misused for self-interest with little care for others and in different ways those came back to bite them. For Tony is broke his heart leaving him disabled. For Peter it broke his heart leaving him fatherless.

    So they both approach similar themes but do so from different angles.

    That just seems like more compelling human drama compared to both liking science, which Peter has in common with plenty of other characters too, like Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Beast, etc.


    Regarding how Spider-Man could stand against Avengers threats, I don’t necessarily have a problem with that in something like Infinity War. But when it’s just a fight against guys like the Avengers in civil War or the Vulture in Homecoming he really doesn’t need Stark tech at all. If you think about it in both movies Stark’s tech wasn’t really that advanced beyond a cosmetic upgrade. He gave Peter a suit he could put on and take off quickly that looked like a Romita drawing. In Civil War his powerset wasn’t really affected by that and in Homecoming all the tech stuff undermined and hurt him more than it helped, hence we got the message that he was better off before he unlocked it and when he wore his cloth suit.

    I mean it’s all well and good having Armor in a cosmic threat level thing like Thanos but if you are fighting just...the guys he normally fights in his own comics like Vulture why does he need high tech anything? We’ve got 5 movies, many cartoons and countless comics showing us that he can do fine against them in spandex.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    Ock might have started it, but everything else was patterned after Stark. This is not the first time on here that a Spider-Man fan has told me that OMD comes down to being Tony's fault or partly his. Peter changed sides. Tony didn't betray him. Also nobody held a gun to Peter's head to unmask himself to the pubic. That was his choice. I don't want them to retcon Tony for Civil War, because it thought him a lot what he would have to do to go forward. Tony lost a lot do to Civil War. Was some of it OOC to me? Yes., but it's canon now. The characters have moved on since Civil War. It can't be helped that some fans can't. There has even been a second Civil War since then.
    The armor was patterned after Stark (well technically Otto wore armour...actually technically Spidey wore armor long before he became close to Stark in Web #100) but nothing else was.

    Tony totally betrayed Peter. He was monitoring him against his consent, he threatened him, as soon as Peter merely said he had made a mistake and was going to leave (i.e. before he'd broken any laws at all) Tony immediately attacked him.

    As for unmasking himself in Civil War Tony might not have held a gun to Peter's head but he gave him few options.

    Unmask or else you are a criminal. The option of registering but not unmasking publically was never ever presented or framed to him at all. It was just unmask or you and your family go down. That was it.

    Which is placing Peter in a near untenable situation and yes that was Tony's fault to an extent, he was pressuring Peter to do it. Don't get me wrong absolutely that was still Peter's decision but he wouldn't have been in that position to be forced into making that decision if not for Stark and the relationship that had occurred between them.

    Just because something happened on the page doesn't mean we just have to hold our hands up if it was OOC. Like I've noticed A LOT of people do that on these boards, they're weirdly complacent about that stuff even though fixes for major OOC writing has happened multiple times before. Grant fixed Punisher being OOC uner Bill Mantlo in the 1980s. Hell Busieck fixed Iron Man being OOC during the Crossing.


    So why wouldn't we fix Iron Man being toxically OOC in Civil War? Yeah he lost a lot but that doesn't forgive him for what he did. Bill Foster's blood is on his and Reed's hands and just because Thor beat him up over that doesn't make things square.

    Just because a story was years ago, if it was bad OOC and an elephant in the room it needs to be addressed. All it means is that that elephant has been there for a long time. See Barbra Gordon and Cassie Cain fans who are still rightfully ticked off over the former not being disabled anymore and the latter still not being a bat person properly.

    There isn't this magic finite window of time you have to address a problem, it's always okay to do so. Heck DC addressed the problems of the new 52 5 whole years later and unreboted Superman over it.

    And yeah there has been a second Civil War (where once again everyone was OOC, esp Carol) but if a second Civil War has happened bringing up the BS fromt he first if anything that renders the first one relevant AGAIN.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bor View Post

    That right there is exactly what he is talking about. ďMost fansĒ? Nomthe handfull of poster you keep on writing with. There is no evidence to suggest your claim there so what he said was completely true.
    a) I don't understand this part "Nomthe handfull of poster you keep on writing with". As In i literally do not grammatically understand the words

    b) There is plenty of evidence to suggest what I said

    c) Remember when I qualified that I said most fans IN MY OBSERVATION. Which ISN'T me stating that 100% most fans feel this way but most of them in MY OBSERVATION have meaning I am qualifying that I am not 100% certain about this but why don't you both continue to character assassinate me by goddam lying and pretending that is what I said

  12. #27
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    I have no problem with Iron Man's involvement with Spiderman

    It really doesn't seem like that big a deal to me.

    Sure, it doesn't always make sense but that's the writers fault for not making it work or writing them OOC to make it work

  13. #28
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    Oh quit with Civil War, already! Characters were written so out-of-character that modern writers treat the whole thing as a What If, about as relevant to present-day writing as the Injustice video-game story.

  14. #29
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    c) Remember when I qualified that I said most fans IN MY OBSERVATION. Which ISN'T me stating that 100% most fans feel this way but most of them in MY OBSERVATION have meaning I am qualifying that I am not 100% certain about this but why don't you both continue to character assassinate me by goddam lying and pretending that is what I said
    I have a feeling you';re only paying attention to the people that agree with you and writting off everybody that doesn't.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    The armor was patterned after Stark (well technically Otto wore armour...actually technically Spidey wore armor long before he became close to Stark in Web #100) but nothing else was.

    Tony totally betrayed Peter. He was monitoring him against his consent, he threatened him, as soon as Peter merely said he had made a mistake and was going to leave (i.e. before he'd broken any laws at all) Tony immediately attacked him.

    As for unmasking himself in Civil War Tony might not have held a gun to Peter's head but he gave him few options.

    Unmask or else you are a criminal. The option of registering but not unmasking publically was never ever presented or framed to him at all. It was just unmask or you and your family go down. That was it.

    Which is placing Peter in a near untenable situation and yes that was Tony's fault to an extent, he was pressuring Peter to do it. Don't get me wrong absolutely that was still Peter's decision but he wouldn't have been in that position to be forced into making that decision if not for Stark and the relationship that had occurred between them.

    Just because something happened on the page doesn't mean we just have to hold our hands up if it was OOC. Like I've noticed A LOT of people do that on these boards, they're weirdly complacent about that stuff even though fixes for major OOC writing has happened multiple times before. Grant fixed Punisher being OOC uner Bill Mantlo in the 1980s. Hell Busieck fixed Iron Man being OOC during the Crossing.


    So why wouldn't we fix Iron Man being toxically OOC in Civil War? Yeah he lost a lot but that doesn't forgive him for what he did. Bill Foster's blood is on his and Reed's hands and just because Thor beat him up over that doesn't make things square.

    Just because a story was years ago, if it was bad OOC and an elephant in the room it needs to be addressed. All it means is that that elephant has been there for a long time. See Barbra Gordon and Cassie Cain fans who are still rightfully ticked off over the former not being disabled anymore and the latter still not being a bat person properly.

    There isn't this magic finite window of time you have to address a problem, it's always okay to do so. Heck DC addressed the problems of the new 52 5 whole years later and unreboted Superman over it.

    And yeah there has been a second Civil War (where once again everyone was OOC, esp Carol) but if a second Civil War has happened bringing up the BS fromt he first if anything that renders the first one relevant AGAIN.
    You said yourself that Peter was written like Stark lite and now your saying it was just the armor?! Lol. OK. Again nobody told Peter he had to unmask himself to the public. That was his choice. Like you even Peter tried to put what happened at Stark's feet. I guess with great power comes ducking great responsibility. Bill's blood is on Tony's hands and he would tell you that himself. It's something that he will always have to deal with. All the stuff Tony has gone through Civil War isn't enough for you. So you want blood from a stone basically is what your saying. Yes Tony was monitoring in case Peter would go over to the other side and guess what. That's exactly what Peter did. Why go back and fix Civil War? It's done. Why should Marvel go back when they and the characters have moved on. Since you speak for MOST Spider-Man fans by your observations. You and them will just have to come to terms with that.
    Last edited by Tony Stark; 07-19-2018 at 07:39 AM.
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

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