What do Iron Man fans think of his involvement in recent Spider-Man history?

[Spidercide]

It’s a big of a deal. I said in terms of not being the only way. He help
ed to creat Buffy and Kamala and now this Spider will help to creat another new teen types.
It was possible for sure. But Marvel tried another way and was also a sucess.

I still can’t picture all this Stark dependence. Uncle Ben is always there. Spider is a newbie, he is going to mess up, but learn from his mistakes. I saw TonyXPeter more like Peter wanting a validation from society a support to be a better super hero for the world and maybe a way to cope with Uncle Ben’s death.
I think it’s just a first introduction. He will grown up and develop from this in MCU until an adult and competent Peter.

I think fits for Peter more than to BP, because one is a 15 year old and the other is an seasoned hero, a king full of responsabilities.

I can’t remember this 94 cartoon. My first was the 2008 one.

I was just giving an exemple with TonyxWasp of how is impossible to adress in a wildspread way every aspect ( the minor things spec) and be too resistent to some changes because this example is fresh in my mind.
That can apply for other exemples too.

I understand you and don’t think that you are written off my point of view.
But I feel sorry for long time fans sometimes, because of course some storylines and situations are hurtfull and let it go is hard.
But at the end of the day, maybe is important to think that dispite some little changes here and there at least more people will be able to fall in love with your hero and all that it represents is going to live forever.

I don’t see how the modern Spider-Man will help to create new teen types. Isn’t that like saying the modern Superman will create new superheroes?

Also the modern spider-man iteration in the films is based upon Miles Morales anyway who is himself inspired by spidey and other older characters so I don’t see how that’s offering something new and innovative.

Whilst it was a success should the spirit of the original characters not be respected first and foremost? After all it wasn’t like doing something more in line with the spirit of the OG character was doomed to failure.

Ana the new movies have never once mentioned Uncle Ben all 3 of Spider-Man’s appearances.
Stark gave him the suit. Peter was referred to as his ward. He referred to himself sounding like his father in Homecoming. His words rang in Spider-Man’s ears when he lifted the rubble off of himself in Homecoming. The suit along with his Infinity War one were designed after Stark’s and he died in Stark’s arms.
The coda is clear. Stark is integral to Spider-Man’s MCU characterization. He is his Dad. Uncle Ben is not.
Peter might be a newbie but ouside of the USM show and maybe the 2017 cartoon Peter has never made this many mistakes as a newbie in any version of his story. He gets competent fairly quickly. The last version of Spidey were he was a newbie before the USm show was the Spec show which was only in 2008. 2008 didn’t have less realistic standards than today and 2008 teens are not a million miles away from modern teens. So if a 2008 newbie Spidey is competent why is a 2017 one bumbling? Yeah he could grow up to become competent but my point is in the mythology of Spider-Man he’s competent fairly early on then just gets even better.
T’Challa only became a King in his solo movie though and wasn’t a seasoned hero.

You should try checking out the 1994 one. It influenced the Raimi movies and was the first time the venom symbiote was shown to corrupt it’s host, something that has gone on to influence ever version of Venom since then.
I take your point about TonyxWasp now but Peter and Tony’s relationship isn’t a minor thing. It was just last decade, was around for 3 years and had profound impact upon Spider-Man’s life and canon.
Put it to you like this. If you deleted Tony and Janet’s relationship how much of Iron Man history would change? Not much.
If you deleted the death of Gwen Stacy how much of Spider-man history would change?
Literally everything after 1973.
This is the situation with Peter and Tony’s relationship. You cannot tell the story of Spider-Man from 2005 onwards without that relationship because it defined so much stuff between then and 2007, led to OMD, which led to BND and everything since. It’s all connected.
It’s not merely a change, it’s an elephant in the room much as Peter’s doctorate was until Spencer wisely addressed it in ASM volume 5 #1.

I want people to fall in love with Spider-Man for sure but false impressions are not a good thing. See everyone who talks about how Gwen Stacy was awesome and loved Peter whilst MJ was bad and loved Spider-Man, which is not true but has had a toxic influence upon the perceptions of the character ever since 2012. See everyone who since 2007 has claimed Spider-Man to be about youth despite it objectively being untrue.

A) Ever considering of actling like a grown up and not resort to childish namecalling for every half of your post? I dont know if you are dyslexic but you seem to be unable to response without being extremely rude.

B) Thats not even close to evidence. Saying “My evidence is people all over” is not evidence.

b.5) How can I present evidence against a claim that is “It is this way because I say so”?

C) Again name calling.

You should get over yourself you act like a child that has been called out on a flawed argument and then has nothing better to offer then calling names and acting like a victim. I am not lying in any way here. I said you had no evidence to support what you were saying and your counter was name calling and evidence in the form of “because I say so”.

You= Rude and thowing around words you clearly dont understand. I repeat: Get over yourself. If you cant even adress others without name calling then that is even more reason why noone should take you seriously.

I did then I thought you are not worth it considering you insulted me and did so in regards to something I have stuggled with you judgemental jerk. And btw, real rich calling me rude. WTF were you exactly in your first post then? I return like for like. You are rude and insult me I will return in kind. I didn’t get rude to you until you got rude to me genius
Yeah it is. What? You want me to draw upon LITERALLY every post I’ve ever, ever seen? Every podcast? Every youtube video?
b.5) Well it’s no goddam different than what you were asking of me so you know…
Yeah name calling., You are damn right you are getting name calling. When you insult me. When you are due to me. When you lie to present me in a false light and then lie about lying in the first place I will be rude to you.

My argument isn’t flawed. I qualified what I was saying. In my observations people feel like this what do Iron man fans feel like?

I’m not acting a victim. You fucking LIED about what I said. You fucking LIED about lying. You presented me falsely then called me out within the context of the false narrative you painted.
That isn’t childish? Pretending something is one way so you can rail against it?
You keep saying you aren’t lying but I can literally quote myself, quote you, then play spot the difference.
ME: “Speaking as a huge Spider-Man fan here, I and most other Spider-Man comic fans I’ve encountered really, really, really, really, really despise Iron Man’s involvement in Spider-Man lore in recent years.”
YOU: “That right there is exactly what he is talking about. “Most fans”? ”
I qualified in my observation. You lied and said I was just saying most fans.
I was speking to my experience personally.
You were pretending i was making a sweeping general statement about everyone.
That. Is. A. Lie.
I never said because I said so. Another lie from you then.

You-Rude, insulting, condescending, lying, unable to read apparently and interpret your own words and statements properly.
So no why don’t YOU get over YOURSELF.
Get this through your goddam head. If you LIE about me. If you paint me falsely. If you say ‘I’m not even trying’ and **** like that yeah I will insult you.
You are not entitled to my respect after you’ve done that, quite the opposite.
I don’t really give a **** if people take me seriously or not by this point. I will say my piece come hell or high water everyone else be damned.
Esepcially if they’re going to lie like you and btw apparently won’t even address the fucking question at hand.
Like I’ve literally started numerous threads and regardless of the topic systemically people on this damn forum respond clearly without reading the OP, respond as though something else entirely was stated.
In summary you are the worst.

[Tony Stark]

wrong thread

[Tony Stark]

I said you said most of the fans you observed. And that is what you said. According to you Tony and Peter were written OOC. So why do they have to go back and retcon it. Just see that like you stated it was a story when characters were OOC. Again Peter chose unmask in the public. I have Amazing Spider-Man #532 and it doesn’t show Tony forcing Peter to unmask.


But this is my bad because I trapped my self into another thread that is pretty much like older threads. A lets attack Tony Stark because of Civil War thread. You are upset because it involved your hero. So please don’t act like you are morally outraged by Tony’s actions, because if you were why didn’t you make a thread about Reed Richards. Who didn’t lose anything from Civil War. He got a complete pass and was right there with Tony step for step. And how can you saw that I didn’t want Avengers Forever to retcon Tony’s deeds?1 No way that I said anything like that.

Fair enough. I misinterpreted what you wrote.


Why do they have to go back and retcon it?


I dunno because

a) Writing the lead characters OOC is bad
b) Writing the lead characters OOC is like one of the worst storytelling sins you can commit since the characters are the entire reason we are reading, are emotionally invested in and pay money for this stuff
c) It’s especially worse when it’s massive storylines for said characters (let alone the MU more broadly) that wouldn’t have happened if they were in OOC.

Civil War isn’t like a one off self-contained story. It’s a story with MASSIVE ramifications for both characters and many others all reliant upon the characters taking certain courses of actions they should NOT have taken if they were to have been allowed to act in character.

Like why should it matter? Bro Bill Foster a character who’d been around since Avengers #32 or something has been DEAD since 2006 because of this story where Tony didn’t act like Tony; and he died in a pretty racist way let’s be real but that’s another discussion.


Aunt May getting shot? The **** during and after OMD? Like NONE of these events should from a logical story progression POV have/still be happening because they are reliant upon the characters being OOC.

In a continuity stories are supposed to build upon one another relatively organically but here is this whole event RELIANT (and Brevoort IIRC admitted this back in the day) upon everyone NOT acting as who they are.

It’s not a self contained thing we can write and off and things just go back to normal it defined a massive chunk of Marvel history and directly led to where the characters are now.


Like in the histories of these characters (because it’s all 1 big story) thats a huge chunk of nonsense that undermines everything building upon it.

So yeah we SHOULD go back and have it make sense. Like real talk you’ve mentioned how people still bring this up. Like…why would you NOT want this? Why would you NOT want Tony’s character basically fixed as he was after the Crossing?


If you have ASm #532 and cannot see the scene where Tony tells Peter by the tree and then in the car about the situation then what kind of misprinted version do you have.


Understand this. Forcing Peter to unmask doesn’t = holds a gun to his head or MJ’s or rips his mask off.

Tony presents Peter with an unwinnable scenario. Unmask publically or else he can’t ‘guarantee’ his and his family’s protection. Basically unmask or else you will be a criminal and you will be hunted down.

“It’s not me asking Peter. If you don’t unmask, you’ll be just like the other powers who defy the law. Wanted criminals. Hunted. Jailed. Not just you, but MJ and your aunt, because they’d be considered accomplices. If you turn against the law, I can’t have you with me. I won’t be able to protect you…or your family.”


THAT is forcing him to unmask. That is presenting him with a binary choice. Reveal who you are to the whole world OR you and your family are going to be hunted down and jailed.

He didn’t offer Peter the chance to leave the country and set up a safe house for him which would’ve been ENTIRELY legal at the time. He didn’t present Peter the option of registering but not unmasking publically. He didn’t do any of the things he could have done to help Peter if he really cared and wasn’t manipulating him.

But of course…he was. He’d been doing that since the prior arc when he invinted Peter to Washington and engineered an attack, when he’d been secretly monitoring Peter so he knew about the spider sense.

Tony put Peter in a corner. Unmask or go to jail.


That. Isn’t. A. Choice.

That’s like saying to someone “Either you agree to paint a target on yourself or you go to jail. HEY I’m not forcing you to do anything!”


YES YOU ARE THAT IS 100% FORCING SOMEONE TO DO SOMETHING!


You didn’t trap yourself into anything. Let’s look at our history here shall we.

I never attacked Tony Stark, nor did i do it over Civil War. I was saying most Spidey fans in my observation feel this way.


I said that for pure context to just let people get that POV and then I was asking how Iron Fans whom I do not know about felt about the subjects. I was asking about Peter/Tony’s relationship then YOU and other people started talking about…Peter’s characetrization.


Okay but that’s literally got nothing to do with the question being asked like at all.


As for being morally outraged by Tony’s actions, like it’s a comic book so unless it’s getting into some gross Identity Crisis territory I am not going to be morally outraged by it.

But am I saying what Tony did was bad and unethical and unheroic and OOC and as a reader who likes these characters do I hate that?


Yes.


And bro I felt that way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in 2006 when I was a teenager. And it had jack to do with Spider-Man back then because I didn’t even know about his and Spidey’s relationship back then. I just looked at the Civil War event and was like “This is the single most asinine story Marvel could ever do that’s going to **** up the suspension of disbelief for their universe long term’…and I was right. There was a reason people back then talked about how maybe Marvel would reboot after Civil War. It was because nobody knew HOW they went back to normal afterwards. And nobody knew that because they could see no believable way of it happening. Because there wasn’t one. And so we got it all swept under the rug after Siege.


As for why I didn’t make this thread about Reed Richards it was because genius this thread wasn’t about Tony’s moral actions in Civil War as I already stated it was about his relationship with Spider-Man within media in general and how they’ve been tied together in recent years.


Reed was irrelevant to the conversation.

I COULD make a thread about Reed though since he’s almost as guilty as Tony. But he wasn’t there with Tony step by step. He didn’t betray Peter by monitoring him. he didn’t stage super villain attacks. He didn’t immediately attack Peter in his home. He didn’t back Peter into a corner and tell him you either unmask or you and your family WILL go to prison and he wasn’t spearheading the whole registration thing either. Not to mention HE wasn’t the ******* who decided to keep Thor’s DNA and had minds towards cloning him. He did the physical act which was reprehensible yes but he didn’t initiate the idea like Tony did.


You didn’’t literally say you didn’t want Avengers Forever to retcoon the Crossing but your statements amounted to saying that because you don’t want Civil War to be retconned which is comparable to the Crossing in terms of effing up Tony’s character. Its like if I said I don’t want OMD to be fixed and then someone said “so you didn’t want the clone saga and mackie’s run to be fixed either” The latter two scenarios are very comparable to the former.[/QUOTE]








Again you are wrong about what I said, but you go ahead speaking for all the Spider-Man fans you observed and accusing me of things that I never said. It's your thread.

[Bor]

I don’t see how the modern Spider-Man will help to create new teen types. Isn’t that like saying the modern Superman will create new superheroes?

Also the modern spider-man iteration in the films is based upon Miles Morales anyway who is himself inspired by spidey and other older characters so I don’t see how that’s offering something new and innovative.

Whilst it was a success should the spirit of the original characters not be respected first and foremost? After all it wasn’t like doing something more in line with the spirit of the OG character was doomed to failure.

Ana the new movies have never once mentioned Uncle Ben all 3 of Spider-Man’s appearances.
Stark gave him the suit. Peter was referred to as his ward. He referred to himself sounding like his father in Homecoming. His words rang in Spider-Man’s ears when he lifted the rubble off of himself in Homecoming. The suit along with his Infinity War one were designed after Stark’s and he died in Stark’s arms.
The coda is clear. Stark is integral to Spider-Man’s MCU characterization. He is his Dad. Uncle Ben is not.
Peter might be a newbie but ouside of the USM show and maybe the 2017 cartoon Peter has never made this many mistakes as a newbie in any version of his story. He gets competent fairly quickly. The last version of Spidey were he was a newbie before the USm show was the Spec show which was only in 2008. 2008 didn’t have less realistic standards than today and 2008 teens are not a million miles away from modern teens. So if a 2008 newbie Spidey is competent why is a 2017 one bumbling? Yeah he could grow up to become competent but my point is in the mythology of Spider-Man he’s competent fairly early on then just gets even better.
T’Challa only became a King in his solo movie though and wasn’t a seasoned hero.

You should try checking out the 1994 one. It influenced the Raimi movies and was the first time the venom symbiote was shown to corrupt it’s host, something that has gone on to influence ever version of Venom since then.
I take your point about TonyxWasp now but Peter and Tony’s relationship isn’t a minor thing. It was just last decade, was around for 3 years and had profound impact upon Spider-Man’s life and canon.
Put it to you like this. If you deleted Tony and Janet’s relationship how much of Iron Man history would change? Not much.
If you deleted the death of Gwen Stacy how much of Spider-man history would change?
Literally everything after 1973.
This is the situation with Peter and Tony’s relationship. You cannot tell the story of Spider-Man from 2005 onwards without that relationship because it defined so much stuff between then and 2007, led to OMD, which led to BND and everything since. It’s all connected.
It’s not merely a change, it’s an elephant in the room much as Peter’s doctorate was until Spencer wisely addressed it in ASM volume 5 #1.

I want people to fall in love with Spider-Man for sure but false impressions are not a good thing. See everyone who talks about how Gwen Stacy was awesome and loved Peter whilst MJ was bad and loved Spider-Man, which is not true but has had a toxic influence upon the perceptions of the character ever since 2012. See everyone who since 2007 has claimed Spider-Man to be about youth despite it objectively being untrue.



I did then I thought you are not worth it considering you insulted me and did so in regards to something I have stuggled with you judgemental jerk. And btw, real rich calling me rude. WTF were you exactly in your first post then? I return like for like. You are rude and insult me I will return in kind. I didn’t get rude to you until you got rude to me genius
Yeah it is. What? You want me to draw upon LITERALLY every post I’ve ever, ever seen? Every podcast? Every youtube video?
b.5) Well it’s no goddam different than what you were asking of me so you know…
Yeah name calling., You are damn right you are getting name calling. When you insult me. When you are due to me. When you lie to present me in a false light and then lie about lying in the first place I will be rude to you.

My argument isn’t flawed. I qualified what I was saying. In my observations people feel like this what do Iron man fans feel like?

I’m not acting a victim. You fucking LIED about what I said. You fucking LIED about lying. You presented me falsely then called me out within the context of the false narrative you painted.
That isn’t childish? Pretending something is one way so you can rail against it?
You keep saying you aren’t lying but I can literally quote myself, quote you, then play spot the difference.
ME: “Speaking as a huge Spider-Man fan here, I and most other Spider-Man comic fans I’ve encountered really, really, really, really, really despise Iron Man’s involvement in Spider-Man lore in recent years.”
YOU: “That right there is exactly what he is talking about. “Most fans”? ”
I qualified in my observation. You lied and said I was just saying most fans.
I was speking to my experience personally.
You were pretending i was making a sweeping general statement about everyone.
That. Is. A. Lie.
I never said because I said so. Another lie from you then.

You-Rude, insulting, condescending, lying, unable to read apparently and interpret your own words and statements properly.
So no why don’t YOU get over YOURSELF.
Get this through your goddam head. If you LIE about me. If you paint me falsely. If you say ‘I’m not even trying’ and **** like that yeah I will insult you.
You are not entitled to my respect after you’ve done that, quite the opposite.
I don’t really give a **** if people take me seriously or not by this point. I will say my piece come hell or high water everyone else be damned.
Esepcially if they’re going to lie like you and btw apparently won’t even address the fucking question at hand.
Like I’ve literally started numerous threads and regardless of the topic systemically people on this damn forum respond clearly without reading the OP, respond as though something else entirely was stated.
In summary you are the worst.

I havent even come close to insulting you the way you have against me. You play the victim card and then continue to insult me with a slew of insults like a rude person and then try to portray yourself as some sort of victim. Its ridicules. Not only are you not worth of respect but the way you cant even manage a response without cursing and namecalling is ridicules. Get over yourself and go back and look at my initial responses, if you think that actually called for that kind of rude, childish and insulting comments you keep on giving then I really do question your ability to read. As someone who works with kids with reading disabilities on a daily basic its insulting that you try to use that as a justification for insulting behaviour.

[Tony Stark]

I havent even come close to insulting you the way you have against me. You play the victim card and then continue to insult me with a slew of insults like a rude person and then try to portray yourself as some sort of victim. Its ridicules. Not only are you not worth of respect but the way you cant even manage a response without cursing and namecalling is ridicules. Get over yourself and go back and look at my initial responses, if you think that actually called for that kind of rude, childish and insulting comments you keep on giving then I really do question your ability to read. As someone who works with kids with reading disabilities on a daily basic its insulting that you try to use that as a justification for insulting behaviour.

I see that's how It's going and I'm glad I not they only one to call them out on it. Very well stated Bor.

[MichaelC]

If we can endure Iron Man becoming Captain America's Lex Luthor, they can endure Spider-Man becoming's Iron Man's Robin.