Marvel Knights is getting relaunched with Donny Cates at the helm

[Tony Stark]

Women actually do make up somewhere around half the comic-reading audience. (I think it's just over half for the industry as a whole, and around 40% of Marvel's audience, but I'm going by memory because I'm too lazy to look up the actual stats, so I could be off.) They just get fewer opportunities. And it's an industry-wide problem - pretty much all publishers give fewer opportunities to female writers than male writers. And the comics industry, while not in the dire straits everyone thinks it's in, does need to expand by reaching out to a wider audience. A big part of that is going to be women and minorities, groups who've traditionally felt excluded from mainstream comics. Beyond that, we live in a time where more and more straight white men want to read stories by people who come from different backgrounds, with different perspectives on the world. I mean, I don't like the Punisher. At all. I oppose him on a conceptual level. But if Vita Ayala wrote him? That's something that would grab my attention. Because a brown person writing a character who's killed a looooooot of brown folks over the years? I'd be curious how their racial background shapes their view of the character.

So, yeah. Gender, race, sexuality, there's a lot of things that actually do matter.

WOW. Now Punisher is racist. He only kills mostly brown people?!?!? smfh.

[Tiamatty]

This is ludicrous. Comics are a fantasy genre and this kind of thinking, that identity should be a prerequisite to writing a character, is going to limit your options to extreme levels. And it really perplexes me that you would use an example like that. That you would only buy a book about a character based on the race of the person writing him. And I REALLY don't think the Punisher singles out any race when doing his job. He kills horrible criminals. He doesn't care what race they are. I don't know why anyone would assume he unfairly gunned down minorities, unless you think less of them as a whole or view minority criminals as somehow morally superior to their white counterparts.

broughton (2).jpg

OK, a couple clarifications.

First: I am not saying that only certain people should write certain characters, or certain types of characters. I'm a big believer in Own Voices, certainly, but I don't think anyone should be limited to that. I would love it if Nnedi Okorafor wrote a Storm solo. But I would also love it if she wrote a Spider-Man series. And Jeremy Whitley's a white guy, but I'm annoyed that he isn't writing a Misty Knight solo this very moment. So it's not about limiting at all.

What it's about is expanding the range of voices that are actually getting out there and getting heard. Different people have different experiences, which gives them different perspectives on the world, which leads to different ways stories get told. And I love that. I back a lot of diversity-focused projects on Kickstarter, because they always end up being so fascinating and compelling. Elements: Fire, for example, has some absolutely brilliant short comics. Or there's Agents of the Realm, currently fundraising for a print version of Vol. 2 (back it, it's a great comic!), a comic that is very much shaped by the creator's life experience as a black woman. A white man might write a magical girl comic, but it wouldn't be AotR, because a white man simply wouldn't bring the same perspective that Mildred Louis has. And it's not even that it's a comic that really focuses on race, it's just that she brings a worldview to the comic that's been shaped by who she is, which includes being a black woman.

As for Punisher: No, he doesn't target people based on their race, but look at the time we live in. How many black and brown people have been killed by the police when they weren't even armed? How many black and brown people have had cops called on them by racist white people who were pretty clearly hoping to get rid of those black and brown people? So what would a brown person do with a white guy vigilante who guns people down? That would be far more interesting to me than yet another volume of Punisher Kills Bad Guys, But Maybe This Time The Cop Chasing Him Is A Latino Or Something.

Let's test that theory. How many of these book reviews are for works from female authors?

https://www.nytimes.com/topic/subject/book-reviews

Publishing is still sexist. Things are improving, but there's still a lot of work to do.

Also, it's important to note the situation is far, far worse for people of colour. The publishing industry has a massive racism problem.

Misogyny or simply lack of interest? Its seen as feminine because its a genre that tends to appeal more to Women that to Men. Look that a any type of romance centered story and you'll likely find a mostly female audience.It has noting to do with fear.

No, it's misogyny. Men aren't interested in romance because men don't want to be seen as less masculine, because men view femininity as a bad thing, because men view women as being inferior. Toxic masculinity is a real thing, and it's a real problem, and it's rooted in contempt for women. So anything that's seen as being feminine is something men just aren't supposed to be interested in. A man who reads romance novels is going to be the butt of jokes.

It's misogyny.

[Cloudman]

Does the first thread about a relaunch of Marvel Knights really have to devolve into this boring gender ****, just because 2 of the writers are female?

Anyway, I hope we get a new Daredevil series out of this. I've enjoyed Soule's run, but the last story arc was dire. Someone else taking the main BP book from Coates would also be nice, but I won't hold my breath.

[Vic Vega]

Are they also bringing back Angel Punisher? I'm totally out if they don't bring back Angel Punisher.

On a more serious note:


I mean, Priest wasn't exactly new to Marvel back then. Joke above aside, the MK Punisher was written by Michael Golden, who was a pretty big artist at Marvel, especially in the '80s, with Micronauts.

In the new announcement, Tini Howard and Vita Ayala are both newcomers to writing for Marvel. And ****, even Rosenberg's only been with Marvel for a couple years, it's just been a really eventful couple years.

So I think the overall spirit of getting new writers, at least, is still in place. We'll have to wait and see on the artists, since Marvel apparently doesn't think artists are all that important, and so announce books while omitting the bulk of the creative teams. Artists matter, Marvel! Line artists matter! Colour artists matter! Letterers matter! If you're going to announce a book, announce it with the whole creative team!

If anything that is why I am not throwing a party over this news yet.

Marvel Knight was also Quesada, Mark Texiera and Joe Jusko.

It wouldn't have worked then without star artists and it won't work now without them.

[Noek]

Well I guess that's one Inhuman safe from the 'Death of the Inhumans'.

No in the end it will be revealed all of them are safe, but ya I can see the Inhumans knights story following that.

[Baseman]

broughton (2).jpg

OK, a couple clarifications.

First: I am not saying that only certain people should write certain characters, or certain types of characters. I'm a big believer in Own Voices, certainly, but I don't think anyone should be limited to that. I would love it if Nnedi Okorafor wrote a Storm solo. But I would also love it if she wrote a Spider-Man series. And Jeremy Whitley's a white guy, but I'm annoyed that he isn't writing a Misty Knight solo this very moment. So it's not about limiting at all.

What it's about is expanding the range of voices that are actually getting out there and getting heard. Different people have different experiences, which gives them different perspectives on the world, which leads to different ways stories get told. And I love that. I back a lot of diversity-focused projects on Kickstarter, because they always end up being so fascinating and compelling. Elements: Fire, for example, has some absolutely brilliant short comics. Or there's Agents of the Realm, currently fundraising for a print version of Vol. 2 (back it, it's a great comic!), a comic that is very much shaped by the creator's life experience as a black woman. A white man might write a magical girl comic, but it wouldn't be AotR, because a white man simply wouldn't bring the same perspective that Mildred Louis has. And it's not even that it's a comic that really focuses on race, it's just that she brings a worldview to the comic that's been shaped by who she is, which includes being a black woman.

As for Punisher: No, he doesn't target people based on their race, but look at the time we live in. How many black and brown people have been killed by the police when they weren't even armed? How many black and brown people have had cops called on them by racist white people who were pretty clearly hoping to get rid of those black and brown people? So what would a brown person do with a white guy vigilante who guns people down? That would be far more interesting to me than yet another volume of Punisher Kills Bad Guys, But Maybe This Time The Cop Chasing Him Is A Latino Or Something.


Publishing is still sexist. Things are improving, but there's still a lot of work to do.

Also, it's important to note the situation is far, far worse for people of colour. The publishing industry has a massive racism problem.


No, it's misogyny. Men aren't interested in romance because men don't want to be seen as less masculine, because men view femininity as a bad thing, because men view women as being inferior. Toxic masculinity is a real thing, and it's a real problem, and it's rooted in contempt for women. So anything that's seen as being feminine is something men just aren't supposed to be interested in. A man who reads romance novels is going to be the butt of jokes.

It's misogyny.

I can't argee with that.First of all I'm talking about romance based stories,not romance in general. While your claim may be true some case to say that it is true of all men feels like a assumption and a ridiculous one at that.

Not everything is the result of a hate boner for women.Its just as likely that tropes used in lot of said stories dont don't appeal to them.

[Silvermoth]

Interesting idea. Hopefully they do it right because I can see it just being a shock for shock value

[CuteClops]

Excellent!
Now, I'm finally able to return to my DD boy. God, I missed him so much.

[Frontier]

Does the first thread about a relaunch of Marvel Knights really have to devolve into this boring gender ****, just because 2 of the writers are female?

Anyway, I hope we get a new Daredevil series out of this. I've enjoyed Soule's run, but the last story arc was dire. Someone else taking the main BP book from Coates would also be nice, but I won't hold my breath.

I'm just going to reiterate my question as to how this is going to work with some of the current solo's...will there be standalone Marvel Knights books, will titles get re-branded/relaunched?

[Tiamatty]

Does the first thread about a relaunch of Marvel Knights really have to devolve into this boring gender ****, just because 2 of the writers are female?

One woman, one enby.

I can't argee with that.First of all I'm talking about romance based stories,not romance in general. While your claim may be true some case to say that it is true of all men feels like a assumption and a ridiculous one at that.

Not everything is the result of a hate boner for women.Its just as likely that tropes used in lot of said stories dont don't appeal to them.

And I'm saying that the tropes don't appeal to men because men have been raised to see those tropes as being feminine, and thus, as inferior.

And let's not "Not All Men" this. Of course there are exceptions. There are men who unironically love the trashiest Harlequin romances out there, because men aren't a monolith, any more than women are. But on the whole, men aren't "supposed" to like romantic fiction. The ones who do get mocked for it. Their masculinity is questioned, and for a lot of men, there's nothing worse than having their masculinity questioned. Because they see women as inferior. It's the root of homophobia. It's why pretty much the entire hysteria about trans people centres around trans women. Because so many men think Femininity Is Bad. ****, there's now make-up for men, which is just make-up, but it can't be called make-up, because make-up is for women. There's absolutely no reason men can't wear make-up, but if a guy is caught wearing make-up, he's going to get insulted, maybe even beaten up. Men aren't allowed to wear dresses, because dresses are for women, and dressing like a woman is Bad. Why? Because femininity is Bad.

Men are terrified of looking less masculine. ****, Wiz Khalifa just said that eating a banana is gay. Bananas. That's North American culture. That's how idiotic toxic masculinity is. Frigging bananas. Men are that scared of looking less masculine. And that absolutely limits the media they're willing to consume. Men don't want to consume media that makes them look less masculine. They just refuse. They refuse to read a book that's classed as a romance, because romance is for women, and that's that.

And the reason for all this is that men view Masculinity as better than Femininity. It is misogyny.

And look, I'm not saying someone is a bad person for not being interested in romance. I'm not interested in reading The Billionaire's Bride or The Sheik's Lover or Pounded In the Butt By the Billionaire T-Rex Sheikh. We're all the products of our environments, we're all shaped by the larger culture around us. But that larger culture has deep-rooted misogyny, and I think it's always important to acknowledge that. And that misogyny is why so few men are interested in romantic fiction. We've been raised to see romance as a feminine thing. We've been raised to view feminine things as less valid, less important, than masculine things. We've been raised to treat feminine things with contempt. So the tendency of men not to consume romantic fiction is the result of an overall contempt towards women in general.

[KurtW95]

Does the first thread about a relaunch of Marvel Knights really have to devolve into this boring gender ****, just because 2 of the writers are female?

I wish we could get beyond that. But there needs to be some pushback when people celebrate based on what person gets a book solely because of their identity. My larger concern is that these two women don't really have any track record at the big two and it would be a pretty big risk hiring them to helm something like Marvel Knights. I'd say the exact same about a man that I hadn't heard of with little to no experience at Marvel and DC.

[Tiamatty]

I wish we could get beyond that. But there needs to be some pushback when people celebrate based on what person gets a book solely because of their identity. My larger concern is that these two women don't really have any track record at the big two and it would be a pretty big risk hiring them to helm something like Marvel Knights. I'd say the exact same about a man that I hadn't heard of with little to no experience at Marvel and DC.

One woman, one enby.

For everyone in the thread: Vita Ayala identifies as non-binary. Let's be respectful and acknowledge that.

Anyway, Howard and Ayala have both written for major publishers. I said this earlier. They've got experience. In fact, Ayala's done a couple Wonder Woman stories, and some other DC work. They're both known names in the industry. They can handle this, I promise you.

[UltimateTy]

I mean, I don't like the Punisher. At all. I oppose him on a conceptual level. But if Vita Ayala wrote him? That's something that would grab my attention. Because a brown person writing a character who's killed a looooooot of brown folks over the years? I'd be curious how their racial background shapes their view of the character.

So, yeah. Gender, race, sexuality, there's a lot of things that actually do matter.

You really don't get the Punisher do you?

I'm just going to reiterate my question as to how this is going to work with some of the current solo's...will there be standalone Marvel Knights books, will titles get re-branded/relaunched?

Didn't they do some Marvel knights branded books a few years go that weren't canon?

[Baseman]

One woman, one enby.


And I'm saying that the tropes don't appeal to men because men have been raised to see those tropes as being feminine, and thus, as inferior.

And let's not "Not All Men" this. Of course there are exceptions. There are men who unironically love the trashiest Harlequin romances out there, because men aren't a monolith, any more than women are. But on the whole, men aren't "supposed" to like romantic fiction. The ones who do get mocked for it. Their masculinity is questioned, and for a lot of men, there's nothing worse than having their masculinity questioned. Because they see women as inferior. It's the root of homophobia. It's why pretty much the entire hysteria about trans people centres around trans women. Because so many men think Femininity Is Bad. ****, there's now make-up for men, which is just make-up, but it can't be called make-up, because make-up is for women. There's absolutely no reason men can't wear make-up, but if a guy is caught wearing make-up, he's going to get insulted, maybe even beaten up. Men aren't allowed to wear dresses, because dresses are for women, and dressing like a woman is Bad. Why? Because femininity is Bad.

Men are terrified of looking less masculine. ****, Wiz Khalifa just said that eating a banana is gay. Bananas. That's North American culture. That's how idiotic toxic masculinity is. Frigging bananas. Men are that scared of looking less masculine. And that absolutely limits the media they're willing to consume. Men don't want to consume media that makes them look less masculine. They just refuse. They refuse to read a book that's classed as a romance, because romance is for women, and that's that.

And the reason for all this is that men view Masculinity as better than Femininity. It is misogyny.

And look, I'm not saying someone is a bad person for not being interested in romance. I'm not interested in reading The Billionaire's Bride or The Sheik's Lover or Pounded In the Butt By the Billionaire T-Rex Sheikh. We're all the products of our environments, we're all shaped by the larger culture around us. But that larger culture has deep-rooted misogyny, and I think it's always important to acknowledge that. And that misogyny is why so few men are interested in romantic fiction. We've been raised to see romance as a feminine thing. We've been raised to view feminine things as less valid, less important, than masculine things. We've been raised to treat feminine things with contempt. So the tendency of men not to consume romantic fiction is the result of an overall contempt towards women in general.

No the reason this men don't like these tropes because they find these tropes stupid. Same thing for woman who don't like action flicks or people who don't like amine. This logic doesn't fly when you use it on any other genre. So why should I accept it here?

Why should I care what Wiz said? Last I check they haven't been mass boycott of bananas from men.Why should I see it as anything other then a rapper saying some dumb **** online.

I understand that people who are interested in things that are atypical for they're gender are mistreated and yes that is a problem.However I don't think pretending that gender based preferences don't exist or is a 100% result of cultural brainwashing is a workable way to solve it.

[Flash Gordon]

Sorry if I missed it, but any word on who's taking over DD? I'm excited for a new DD book!