Marvel Knights is getting relaunched with Donny Cates at the helm

[Tiamatty]

No the reason this men don't like these tropes because they find these tropes stupid. Same thing for woman who don't like action flicks or people who don't like amine. This logic doesn't fly when you use it on any other genre. So why should I accept it here?

Why should I care what Wiz said? Last I check they haven't been mass boycott of bananas from men.Why should I see it as anything other then a rapper saying some dumb **** online.

I understand that people who are interested in things that are atypical for they're gender are mistreated and yes that is a problem.However I don't think pretending that gender based preferences don't exist or is a 100% result of cultural brainwashing is a workable way to solve it.

Women love action flicks. Half the audience at any Marvel movie is women. I see women still talking about Mad Max: Fury Road. And women who love action flicks aren't judged for it. A woman saying she loves Dwayne Johnson movies isn't going to get anywhere near the same judgment as a man saying he enjoys Julia Roberts movies. A woman enjoying masculine things is considered far less aberrant than a man enjoying feminine things. Masculine things are seen as better than feminine things. Because society - prepare to have your mind blown - is sexist.

And to repeat: Men hate certain tropes because they've been taught that those tropes are associated with femininity, and men are afraid of femininity. Men are insanely protective of their masculinity. To the extent of avoiding entire genres of fiction, just out of the fear that enjoying a smooch-focused story would somehow invalidate their manliness.

[Tien Long]

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OK, a couple clarifications.

First: I am not saying that only certain people should write certain characters, or certain types of characters. I'm a big believer in Own Voices, certainly, but I don't think anyone should be limited to that. I would love it if Nnedi Okorafor wrote a Storm solo. But I would also love it if she wrote a Spider-Man series. And Jeremy Whitley's a white guy, but I'm annoyed that he isn't writing a Misty Knight solo this very moment. So it's not about limiting at all.

What it's about is expanding the range of voices that are actually getting out there and getting heard. Different people have different experiences, which gives them different perspectives on the world, which leads to different ways stories get told. And I love that. I back a lot of diversity-focused projects on Kickstarter, because they always end up being so fascinating and compelling. Elements: Fire, for example, has some absolutely brilliant short comics. Or there's Agents of the Realm, currently fundraising for a print version of Vol. 2 (back it, it's a great comic!), a comic that is very much shaped by the creator's life experience as a black woman. A white man might write a magical girl comic, but it wouldn't be AotR, because a white man simply wouldn't bring the same perspective that Mildred Louis has. And it's not even that it's a comic that really focuses on race, it's just that she brings a worldview to the comic that's been shaped by who she is, which includes being a black woman.

As for Punisher: No, he doesn't target people based on their race, but look at the time we live in. How many black and brown people have been killed by the police when they weren't even armed? How many black and brown people have had cops called on them by racist white people who were pretty clearly hoping to get rid of those black and brown people? So what would a brown person do with a white guy vigilante who guns people down? That would be far more interesting to me than yet another volume of Punisher Kills Bad Guys, But Maybe This Time The Cop Chasing Him Is A Latino Or Something.

You raise some interesting ideas here, Tiamatty. First off, I certainly agree with the fact that more voices and perspectives should be brought to media. As an Asian-American, I can relate. It's disheartening to me that when I see a number of my Asian-American actor friends getting just a couple of stage roles, bit parts in TV shows, and featured performances in indie films (actually know would be a great time to hawk my friend's latest indie film called For Izzy. Check out the trailer here!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDBk_xo-l4w ). It's frustrating to me though that they are not getting the big roles in the big films that they deserve. So yes, having more people of various backgrounds in comics is something we all should see. (I'm actually very glad to hear that Vita Ayala does not ascribe to a gender. My lesbian friend introduced me to her sibling who was once her sister. Her sibling is very happy being a "they" now.)

You also raise an interesting notion with the Punisher. I raised a similar idea in my thread about changes to Marvel's Street Level characters. While it's cool to read how Luke, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Spider-Man and others lay a beatdown on street criminals, I can't help but think about the circumstances that led to these criminals taking up such a life. We now know that circumstances related to socioeconomics and racism lead to a lot of crime. To further the idea, a fellow poster raised the idea of Luke Cage confronting gentification. I (plus a lot of other posters) would like to see the Marvel street heroes confront those issues, because those issues can't simply be solved through punches, kicks, web-shooters, and radar senses (though it wouldn't hurt to see those things, right?).

As for the Punisher, I do know that female writers have recently been on the title, most notably Becky Cloonan. Though i haven't read the title, I heard a lot of praise for her writing.

So, yes, I feel that more voices should be heard. More issues should be heard. And there has been progress. All of these things I agree.

However, reading this:

Women actually do make up somewhere around half the comic-reading audience. (I think it's just over half for the industry as a whole, and around 40% of Marvel's audience, but I'm going by memory because I'm too lazy to look up the actual stats, so I could be off.) They just get fewer opportunities. And it's an industry-wide problem - pretty much all publishers give fewer opportunities to female writers than male writers. And the comics industry, while not in the dire straits everyone thinks it's in, does need to expand by reaching out to a wider audience. A big part of that is going to be women and minorities, groups who've traditionally felt excluded from mainstream comics. Beyond that, we live in a time where more and more straight white men want to read stories by people who come from different backgrounds, with different perspectives on the world. I mean, I don't like the Punisher. At all. I oppose him on a conceptual level. But if Vita Ayala wrote him? That's something that would grab my attention. Because a brown person writing a character who's killed a looooooot of brown folks over the years? I'd be curious how their racial background shapes their view of the character.

As a Punisher fan, that........................stings. I'm going to have to go with my friend Tony Stark on the matter with his reaction:

WOW. Now Puniosher is racist. He only kills mostly brown people smfh.

I was a little smfh too.

Now, I read your clarification on the matter, and I get where you're coming from. The Punisher isn't racist, but his killing of those who are black and brown is different from other the killings of others. It must be contextualized. Again, it would be interesting to see that mentality compared with Frank's, (because we Punisher fans know that Frank sees the situation very, VERY differently).

But again, a comment like that................stings.

I'd ask if you could show a bit more discretion in the future. And perhaps say a more direct "I'm sorry" right now.

[Tien Long]

As for the 20th anniversary of Marvel Knights, wow, I really can't believe it! Has it really been 20 yrs.? I'm surprised to see how the Marvel Knights line really breathed new life into these characters who are still going strong by the way. By the looks of the Netflix and MCU landscape, they are doing very well, no?

As for me, I liked how Marvel Knights highlighted the street level characters with the Marvel Knights title:


Made me the proud Shang-Chi fan that I am today!

Definitely looking forward to what the new line brings. Hopefully, we'll get to see those classic Marvel Knights characters brought back. And hopefully see more offbeat, lesser known characters get the spotlight as well!

[Tiamatty]

I was a little smfh too.

Now, I read your clarification on the matter, and I get where you're coming from. The Punisher isn't racist, but his killing of those who are black and brown is different from other the killings of others. It must be contextualized. Again, it would be interesting to see that mentality compared with Frank's, (because we Punisher fans know that Frank sees the situation very, VERY differently).

But again, a comment like that................stings.

I'd ask if you could show a bit more discretion in the future. And perhaps say a more direct "I'm sorry" right now.

Fair enough, I'm sorry. The Punisher is a concept that bothers me - the whole revenge-fantasy angle. I've never really been into that kind of thing. I find it weird and disturbing. I can really only see him as a mass murderer, and the only reason he works is because he never makes a mistake. Everyone he kills is guilty, because the moment he screws up and kills someone who it turns out wasn't a killer or a crack dealer or a puppy-kicker, then he can't operate any more. So I'm probably more dismissive of him than I should be. So, sorry.

[KurtW95]

The Punisher isn't racist, but his killing of those who are black and brown is different from other the killings of others.

How? Are criminals of certain races magically more innocent than criminals of other races that do the exact same thing?

[MYCMTSC]

I wish we could get beyond that. But there needs to be some pushback when people celebrate based on what person gets a book solely because of their identity. My larger concern is that these two women don't really have any track record at the big two and it would be a pretty big risk hiring them to helm something like Marvel Knights. I'd say the exact same about a man that I hadn't heard of with little to no experience at Marvel and DC.

We'll continue to get beyond it as hiring practices become more fair and balanced.



Anyway, excited for this. Coates is one of those rare cases where I didn't really care for his indie stuff and have been loving his Marvel work a lot more (Venom and Doctor Strange specifically). Also really glad to see Marvel following DC's footsteps in re-developing other imprints.

This is good stuff all around.

[Tiamatty]

How? Are criminals of certain races magically more innocent than criminals of other races that do the exact same thing?

Huuuuuh.

nopeyana (2).jpg

Not gonna get into it. I'm just gonna walk away. I'd recommend you read up on the state of race relations in the US, and particularly tensions between police and black communities, but I'm not going to get into a debate about it here.

[responsarbre]

There may be an imbalance, but it's not because the editors go "hey, you know what.. let's purposely exclude the women." It's just that less women are interested in comics, therefore, less women are interested in writing comics. And companies should hire from a pool based on talent, not quotas.

Re: earlier comments I made on the gender imbalance at comics companies, it's also worth noting the very well-documented culture of harassment that exists at the Big Two; most recently Valerie D'Orazio published a particularly sickening picture of the horrible working conditions for women in an office with Mike Carlin and Eddie Berganza in it. So, I don't know, maybe don't try to be so willfully blind to the idea that things might be harder for women because of certain societal trends?

You really don't get the Punisher do you?

It's more than a valid criticism of The Punisher. I stand by my take that Edmondson's series (infamously featuring Frank gunning down latino teenagers while the police cheered him on) was probably the most insensitive thing they could have put out at the beginning of this current BLM era. But this thread sure is off-topic at this point, isn't it?

Didn't they do some Marvel knights branded books a few years go that weren't canon?

Yeah, around the mid-00s once Quesada was well-embedded as EiC, the Marvel Knights line turned into a mostly non-canon or ambiguously-canon selection of off-color books.
As for how they're handling the characters with books out already, maybe they'll just make some new minis or supplementary stories running alongside the main series? For some of them, like Rosenberg on Punisher, I imagine you could just give it the MK branding, although it kind of takes away the point of having a curated line given he's been writing it for a year now. As for others, I suppose it's possible Soule leaves DD at some point in 2019, but does Marvel really want to surrender partial hiring control on Daredevil now that it's such an important book to them again?

[Prof. Warren]

Marvel Knights got me back into Marvel after many years of disinterest. It's definitely the best imprint they've had.

Bringing it back seems like a genius idea and putting Cates at the helm is just added brilliance. Everything he touches turns to gold so this should be very good indeed.

Can't wait to hear more details!

[Tien Long]

Fair enough, I'm sorry. The Punisher is a concept that bothers me - the whole revenge-fantasy angle. I've never really been into that kind of thing. I find it weird and disturbing. I can really only see him as a mass murderer, and the only reason he works is because he never makes a mistake. Everyone he kills is guilty, because the moment he screws up and kills someone who it turns out wasn't a killer or a crack dealer or a puppy-kicker, then he can't operate any more. So I'm probably more dismissive of him than I should be. So, sorry.

Dude, this means a lot. Thank you. Dealing with the grey areas, Frank Castle has had issues with that in the past, but perhaps it should be explored more. I understand where you're coming from, regarding both The Punisher and other things.

How? Are criminals of certain races magically more innocent than criminals of other races that do the exact same thing?

I'll always believe in personal responsibility, Kurt. But other factors.......we can't be blind to them. That's all I'll say on the matter. Still, I suggest we follow Tiamatty's example and walk away from this. I am right now.

I am interested in how Donny Cates will lead the Marvel Knights. Truth be told, my only exposure to him was during the Dr. Strange: Damnation mini and tie-in's. I was totally looking forward to a new "street magic" series that would spin out of that, comibing my favorite street level and magical level characters together, but the execution could have been better. So, I'm cautiously optimistic with how Donny will direct this series.

Indeed, what direction will Marvel Knights take? That's the question. Will it feature street characters? C and D-level ones? Series that are loosely tied (if at all) to events happening in the main Marvel Universe? Marvel Knights have been all of these things in the past. So what will it be in the future?

[The Man With The Stick]

I mean, Priest wasn't exactly new to Marvel back then. Joke above aside, the MK Punisher was written by Michael Golden, who was a pretty big artist at Marvel, especially in the '80s, with Micronauts.

It was by Christopher Golden (different guy from Michael Golden).

[responsarbre]

Hmmm, looks like there's some confusion. Newsarama put out a correction from Marvel that they were only announcing the MK20 #1 issue by Cates, Rosenberg, Howard, and Ayala, and not a whole comics line revival (and that Deodato is not the artist on MK20 #1). That's kind of a bummer.

[Colt Cape]

Who is that on the right of OP's image? I can't make them out.

Ah believe it's Karnak.

[uebersoldat]

How? Are criminals of certain races magically more innocent than criminals of other races that do the exact same thing?

I can't explain some of the warped logic I'm seeing in this thread. It's probably futile to attempt reason.

[Force de Phenix]

Hmmm, looks like there's some confusion. Newsarama put out a correction from Marvel that they were only announcing the MK20 #1 issue by Cates, Rosenberg, Howard, and Ayala, and not a whole comics line revival (and that Deodato is not the artist on MK20 #1). That's kind of a bummer.

Well that sucks. It's a nice gesture, but why even make the one-shot? Marvel Knights would have been more interesting than some of the other stuff that they're planning now.