I’m not interested in New 52 Shazam. Change my mind.

[SilverWarriorWolf]

Understand, this is someone who has only just taken an interest in Captain Marvel/Shazam.

I have not read one book from New 52, but I have been reading about it from both pro and cons, and I have taken an interest in the character. However, I haven’t seen anything for someone who hadn’t read anything before.

Having read the arguments, I have to say, this version of Billy’s kind of making me lose interest. From what I’ve read, he’s a nasty brat, and that makes me leery. I’ve heard the primary argument is that allows for character development, but if I don’t like you, I don’t care about your character development. I need to find a reason to cheer for you in the first place before I care enough to want you to change for the better, and I’m not just seeing anything in this Billy to make me want to see him change. (By the way, this attitude isn’t exclusive to comics. This is why I can’t stand Great Expectations.)

This makes me sad, because the whole foster home set up would otherwise be a plus for me, and I would have bought the book for that alone.

So, speaking as someone who hasn’t read it and doesn’t want to buy something there’s a strong chance I won’t like, and I seeing things clearly? Is there something I’m missing?

[KurtW95]

No. You're right. It also ruins the origins of Freddy (by having him be a foster kid in the house and getting rid of uniquely being Captain Marvel Jr. after the tragedy with Captain Nazi) and Mary (being older than Billy, not being related to him, and growing up in the group foster home rather than being raised by the wealthy Bromwell family). We also have the new kids shrinking the roles of Mary and Freddy by getting on the same level as them. The existence of Darla Dudley also eliminates Uncle Dudley from the equation. Tawky Tawny is just a regular tiger that can turn into a sabertooth cat with Billy's magic. The wizard's name isn't Shazam. And there's a BS explanation that Billy has to mean it when he says Shazam, explaining how he can have that be his name without constantly transforming when referring to himself.

[ironman2978]

Understand, this is someone who has only just taken an interest in Captain Marvel/Shazam.

I have not read one book from New 52, but I have been reading about it from both pro and cons, and I have taken an interest in the character. However, I haven’t seen anything for someone who hadn’t read anything before.

Having read the arguments, I have to say, this version of Billy’s kind of making me lose interest. From what I’ve read, he’s a nasty brat, and that makes me leery. I’ve heard the primary argument is that allows for character development, but if I don’t like you, I don’t care about your character development. I need to find a reason to cheer for you in the first place before I care enough to want you to change for the better, and I’m not just seeing anything in this Billy to make me want to see him change. (By the way, this attitude isn’t exclusive to comics. This is why I can’t stand Great Expectations.)

This makes me sad, because the whole foster home set up would otherwise be a plus for me, and I would have bought the book for that alone.

So, speaking as someone who hasn’t read it and doesn’t want to buy something there’s a strong chance I won’t like, and I seeing things clearly? Is there something I’m missing?

Billy character, was always more than just the first issue which painted that image of Billy. But Billy was a character who still stuck up for other people and tried to help them anyway he can:




The difference is his rougher attitude, which was dropped after the first 2-3 issues was shown to be an act. He was used to people letting him down and doing better on his own (especially based on his last four foster homes according to one line of dialogue of his social worker who doesn't care about him as long as he doesn't affect her pension). He's learned to detatch himself from the situation, until he met the Vasquez family. There is difference between a Billy who is 10-13 like most origins who's been on his own and still have a hopeful attitude, and a Billy who's been through the foster system until 15 and bounced from family to family to the point where he rather live in the subway. It's not simply just a matter of character development but Billy is a kid who cares more for other than he would want to admit. The foster home is also a plus, seeing them bounce off of Billy. I would say reading the graphic novel as a whole paints a better picture of Billy as a more nuanced character than just the one story. Especially with the new series coming out.



He was still someone who cared about people, even the villains despite what they did. Like in Justice League#22, where he trying to bury Black Adam in the place of his origin:




He's far from a nasty brat to be honest. His first action as Shazam/Cap, is to save someone from being robbed without a second thought. That alone speaks a lot about his character

Unlike what Kurt says, it doesn't ruin the characters or ignore the characters despite changing elements. Far from it. The origin may be the starting point but we don't know where they are going to next. It still gets to the heart of Captain Marvel in a lot of ways.

[KurtW95]

Well, I gave reasoning for why I think they were ruined, so it might be more helpful for your cause to counter that instead of just saying I'm wrong.

[ironman2978]

Well, I gave reasoning for why I think they were ruined, so it might be more helpful for your cause to counter that instead of just saying I'm wrong.

I would say they aren't ruined because they haven't got into their backstory yet. The origin sets up the characters but don't delve into their who they were into their backstories yet. Freddy may not be Captain Marvel Jr. or have the Elvis backstories but he still shares a bond of friendship with Captain Marvel. Mary is still a sister of sorts to Billy even if the relationship isn't defined as biological in the origin (we don't know where Geoff will go with the character).

I already explained why Billy isn't the brat as you tried to paint him as, they are more than a few examples showing that he is a kid who cares, but is more guarded than the pre-flashpoint Barry. . Just because new characters are introduced, doesn't mean the old characters are suddenly invalidated or useless anymore. Freddy and Mary have been depicted as still being close to Billy, even with the addition of 3 other characters (Freddy is the first person Billy opens up with everything, Mary serves as a contrast but she still sees good in Billy despite his rough first start. Like I said, they are far from ruined, while JL kind of shifted the narrative, it seems the new Shazam story paints a creation of a family. It's not any more or less lessened or weakened if they are more addition to the family. In fact it's just the opposite.

[Carabas]

Well, I gave reasoning for why I think they were ruined, so it might be more helpful for your cause to counter that instead of just saying I'm wrong.

No, you just gave some differences with older versions. That isn't the same thing.

Also, given that SHAZAM is an acronym I doubt it was ever the real name of the Wizard. It was a bit of a plot hole back then.

[byrd156]

No. You're right. It also ruins the origins of Freddy (by having him be a foster kid in the house and getting rid of uniquely being Captain Marvel Jr. after the tragedy with Captain Nazi) and Mary (being older than Billy, not being related to him, and growing up in the group foster home rather than being raised by the wealthy Bromwell family). We also have the new kids shrinking the roles of Mary and Freddy by getting on the same level as them. The existence of Darla Dudley also eliminates Uncle Dudley from the equation. Tawky Tawny is just a regular tiger that can turn into a sabertooth cat with Billy's magic. The wizard's name isn't Shazam. And there's a BS explanation that Billy has to mean it when he says Shazam, explaining how he can have that be his name without constantly transforming when referring to himself.

I was about to say the same thing.

[Rod G]

Billy character, was always more than just the first issue which painted that image of Billy. But Billy was a character who still stuck up for other people and tried to help them anyway he can:




The difference is his rougher attitude, which was dropped after the first 2-3 issues was shown to be an act. He was used to people letting him down and doing better on his own (especially based on his last four foster homes according to one line of dialogue of his social worker who doesn't care about him as long as he doesn't affect her pension). He's learned to detatch himself from the situation, until he met the Vasquez family. There is difference between a Billy who is 10-13 like most origins who's been on his own and still have a hopeful attitude, and a Billy who's been through the foster system until 15 and bounced from family to family to the point where he rather live in the subway. It's not simply just a matter of character development but Billy is a kid who cares more for other than he would want to admit. The foster home is also a plus, seeing them bounce off of Billy. I would say reading the graphic novel as a whole paints a better picture of Billy as a more nuanced character than just the one story. Especially with the new series coming out.



He was still someone who cared about people, even the villains despite what they did. Like in Justice League#22, where he trying to bury Black Adam in the place of his origin:




He's far from a nasty brat to be honest. His first action as Shazam/Cap, is to save someone from being robbed without a second thought. That alone speaks a lot about his character

Unlike what Kurt says, it doesn't ruin the characters or ignore the characters despite changing elements. Far from it. The origin may be the starting point but we don't know where they are going to next. It still gets to the heart of Captain Marvel in a lot of ways.

This, I must say, is the essence of the Post-Flashpoint World’s Mightiest Mortal, aka Shazam.

[Jekyll]

Billy is not a nasty brat. He’s a kid who is hurting and alone, like any child would be in his situation. Once he starts letting his guard down we see that Billy is a great kid.

I HATED the new 52 as a whole, but this was one of the few books that I read and really enjoyed! To each his own, but you won’t know if you don’t give it a try. My local library had a copy. I would check there and if you don’t enjoy it, you aren’t out any money.

[andersonh1]

The appeal of Captain Marvel, to me, is that he's a traditionally lighter character than most, not grounded in more realistic trappings. He's a contrast to all the characters around him, and if well written, there's an almost childlike (not childish, mind you) sense of wonder where anything can happen. He's not down in the dark and shadows with Batman, he's not dealing with secret id and relationship drama with Superman, he's just the essence of pure superheroics: a character who has power, a big heart, and wants to help people. I like that Billy Batson was given the power precisely because he was a cut above everyone else.

New 52 Shazam, on the other hand, makes the mistake of trying to ground the character. He's in a real-world location, he's had a rough time in foster homes, and you have to scratch beneath the surface to find the good kid. Yeah, it may well be more realistic, but all the appeal of the more fantastic version is lost to me. And whereas with Captain Marvel we had a brother and sister and their friend share the power, now the concept is really diluted among six characters, and we're hit over the head with the diversity of the group. It's not subtle at all. The character no longer feels like a wish fulfillment fantasy, it feels like every other dime a dozen character out there, given major feet of clay, with a lot of boxes ticked off on a list of attributes, and the name change being the final surrender.

In my life (and I'm observing this same pattern with my kids) there was a time when I was a kid and just had fun with what I liked and didn't care if it was seen as nonsense. Then I hit the teenage years and had to be "so serious" and "grow up" and drop all that silliness. After a while as an adult, I figured out that was a bit pretentious of me, and I went back to just enjoying whatever I liked without worrying about it. Captain Marvel exists in that zone where I just have fun with superheroes, where anything goes and I've dropped the cynicism. Shazam feels like the concept as that surly teenager would write it. All that silliness has to go, and the character has to be taken seriously, darn it!

They're not the same characters at all. Shazam has replaced Captain Marvel. Cap is out there in the multiverse, as Multiversity and Convergence showed us (and both of those stories were so much better than New 52 Shazam, which I really disliked), but we're not likely to see him very often at this point.

[jump]

One thing I found really interesting about the NU52 Shazam was the idea that the Wizard has been abducting people and it's treated like UFO abductions.

[Zero Hunter]

Every character that lives on and thrives changes. Superman and Batman are not the same as they were in the old days, but the die hard Nu52 Shazam haters want that character to be forever frozen in time and never change. That is why Shazam has never been able to really take off in the DCU because of this hard headed mindset. DC has tried many times to do that version of the character and it fails because it is way to rooted in the past.

The Nu52 reboot version is great and don't let the haters tell you otherwise. They are just too stuck in their nostalgia mindset to ever admit that it was not this total failure they like to paint it to be. It has been going on so long now that they are even more dug in on their position just out of spite. If you go through most topics on this you will see it is the always the same few names that are complaining about it the most, so don't late that miniscule minority influence you.

[Truman Burbank]

Do yourself a favor and track down the back issues of Jerry Ordway's "The Power of Shazam!" from the '90s instead.

[Buried Alien]

I've always most favored the 1970s TV portrayal of Billy Batson/Captain Marvel. That version was a young adult, around 19 years old, and more mature than his years. The travels with Mentor (a thinly disguised Uncle Dudley) represented a good hook.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!

[KurtW95]

Do yourself a favor and track down the back issues of Jerry Ordway's "The Power of Shazam!" from the '90s instead.

This. While there were a few changes from the original iteration that I disagree with (Tawky Tawny's origin, Billy's parents being murdered by Theo Adam), it largely stays true to the original version and Ordway is a fantastic writer.