Wonder Woman vs. Doomsday: Death of Superman: Major Disappointment

[SiegePerilous02]

It wouldn't be inbalanced and without equality in that case and i'm pretty sure this thread would be drastically close if that would be just remotely true most of the time.

It's more like fans cannot agree on an amount being enough.

How much more often do we need to see Superman guest star in her book or the team up books and get zapped by Circe or clawed by Cheetah before people are satisfied?

About which males specifically are you talking here, Green Lantern, Flash, Batman?

Dude, like all of them. Can you think of any besides Supes and Captain Marvel that is generally accepted to be as strong or stronger than her?

Superman fans seem willing to concede, oh how very nice of them(come on...)

How else can it be put? When a group of fans of one character admit another character is superior to them in one field, it's called "conceding."

Come on...

Happens a lot, Cheetah, ehhh i mean which comics do you actually read, especially Cheetah gets more often jobbed out by Street level characters than she does anything like piercing Supes skin...

Same ones you do.
Ballesteros Cheetah beat the crap out of Superman in the Jimenez run
JL #13 and 14 she bit him and turned him into a were Cheetah. He wasn't fast enough to stop her.
Batman the Brave and the Bold Cartoon

The JL issues were a big seller due to Geoff Johns writing it, and the cartoon was watched by more people than the amount who read comics. More people saw those than some random issue of Green Arrow.

And then always fall back and gets pretty often also just used to show how awesome Supes is, if you're a Kara fan should you very well know how she's usually portrayed in comparison to Clark.

Seems to be pretty well since she's the one who went out protecting him from the Anti-Monitor and proved more effective in the fight, is occassionally touted as being stronger than he is, and beat him in a fight on her show and he even went the extra mile and said she was the better hero or something.

Seems she's doing ok generally.

But why should especially people who already dislike that Supes is stronger than WW like that Kara could be too anyways? Like mentioned i don't even rly think WW should have the same physical strength as Supes(Kara depends), but how did you came to the weird conclusion these people would like that WW becomes even weaker in comparison?

Because some posters make a big deal about a man being stronger than her, but I'm doubtful they would be as accepting to a woman being superior to her hypothetically.

Because I've floated the idea that Kara and Karen are a bit stronger around here before, and been met with resistance.

I would just have a problem with astronomacially, as long as we are just talking about physical strength.

yes, Superman being so powerful that he makes the rest of the League redundant is too much.

I like him being the most powerful, but WW or J'ohnn should have a fair shot of taking him down if need be, and should win if working together as an experienced unit.

No, but she needs to be comparably as powerful(speed would be notably more important than strength in her specific case though), except we are talking about sheer luck or handycap matches.

Speed wise, I like them being dead even in terms of flying, with her edging him out while running because she is more naturally athletic.

Pretty much any WW fan or at least person who knows the character will tell you that here inconsistence is a gigantic problem(well and i like Marstons run), so these 71 years are something pretty problematic.

Oh definitely. But the inconsistencies in origins, locations, supporting casts, rogues gallery and power levels within her own comic (and not in relation to Superman) are much bigger deals than not being quite as strong as Superman.
It's not even a problem that was always detrimental in the Silver Age. The early JL issues are pretty great at using everybody, WW is a serious heavy hitter who still saves Superman's ass a couple times even when he's stronger. She fared much better than poor, useless Susan Storm over in Fantastic Four (god those are groan worthy). She was treated as just one of the guys. It was great.

But who even said the portrayal of the other JL-members was ok? The whole idea to have this JL team in the movie was simply stupid, especially considering how they attacked Doomsday one after another(which lets them just look like a bunch of ineffective clowns without any teamwork).

That's kind of a problem with the story and Doomsday as a threat. They had a JL in the story, but they wanted the big names because it is more marketable. Hence they need to lose against Doomsday, the crappy dumb plot device.

You know this argument would be way better if we wouldn't talk about a few times(WW) against the vast majority of times(Supes), but why should be WW fans notably different than Supes fans in that regard anyways?

They probably shouldn't act different. But the reason they act the same is because they are obviously so similar and drawn to similar characters and are just as protective of "their guy/gal" as the other.

Neither should really be surpised when they get resistance from the other. But being a fan of both can be annoying for this reason lol.

Uhm WW is clearly more powered down for a while now, was the statue in the last movie

Where has she been portrayed as significantly weaker than him or scaled down from her post-Crisis power levels in the comics, especially recently?

For the movies that actually matter, one was an origin movie and showed her gaining power and was incomplete, and BvS had her faring better against Doomsday than Clark. She's not been consistently scaled down recently.

Or do you mean the animated ones? Because I admittedly ignore all of those.

and got just basically replaced with Jason in her own book in the last run.

Jason was a problem, but it was also one that had nothing to do with Superman. And then he got winked out of existence at the end of the run. We hopefully don't have to worry about him ever again.

And considering that Supes has usually anyways more than just his own standard run(Action comics and other related book) and more often also more in the team-ups and events is that a rly, rly inbalanced comparison anyways.

And a lot of those guest appearances can be Supes jobbing to prob up the other hero. He falls victim to that as well. if Diana gets promoted to be top dog in the DCU and gets more appearances, same might eventually happen to her. Because when you are at the top everyone wants to tear you down to prop themselves up.
Screw that noise.

[brettc1]

All characters from the Gold and Silver age have an element of silliness to them.

But while some Supermsn fans are quick to agree she is less strong but a better fighter, how many times has that actually helped her beat an opponent that he could not? Zodshould be a better fighter than Clark, but Clark regularly beats him.

And as for magic, I seem to recall Superman does not always lose to magic. He has beaten magical enemies in his own book.

Do the situation seems to be that both characters are seen as having limitations in how effective they are, but For some reason Wonder Woman's limitations are more so.

[ssupes]

All characters from the Gold and Silver age have an element of silliness to them.

But while some Supermsn fans are quick to agree she is less strong but a better fighter, how many times has that actually helped her beat an opponent that he could not? Zodshould be a better fighter than Clark, but Clark regularly beats him.

And as for magic, I seem to recall Superman does not always lose to magic. He has beaten magical enemies in his own book.

Do the situation seems to be that both characters are seen as having limitations in how effective they are, but For some reason Wonder Woman's limitations are more so.

But what limitations or weaknesses has wonder woman overcome in her stories? The only ones that have come to mind is facing stronger opponents and occasionally getting shot. There was also that time where she blinded herself but that didn't last long. So I suppose the reason she has had some difficulty with stronger foes is because there isn't any other way to test her really as thus why she relies on her fighting skills. Just my opinion though I'm probably wrong.

[Incognito]

You're surprised that this thread about a theme that the vast majority of WW fans can relate to is still going on?

Yep. It's been going on for so long, I think with all the comments based on this thread pretty much settles with the development of WW over the yeats. Wonder Woman will get her shine soon, which would be in her animated movie.

Wait so Wonder Woman's powers should get reduced for the sake of Supes superiority, or what are you meaning with that?

I did not say that Wonder Woman should be reduced. What I meant is that her powers are similar to Shazam, and I see her gifts as a portion of the gods powers. Wonder Woman and Shazam both have the speed of Hermes/Mercury, but they never shown to be an equal to Hermes in terms of speed.

Cause this problem goes far deeper than just that one animated movie and the decision to let WW's sword break on Doomsday's fist was hilariously stupid.

I just see it that Doomsday's fist has enough force to shatter WW's sword.

And WW fans would like to actually see that(Flash fans too, but outside of the DCEU is his speed usually portrayed as distinctly superior to Supes).

To me, Justice League wasn't a good movie, it has its moments though. I think they show Superman holding his own against the JL because either the people working on the DCEU knows that they messed up Superman or to show that the ressurection gave him a bit of a power up. The Flash is a rookie so to me it was understandable, also Superman is the second fastest in the JL.

Speed on the other hand should be clearly comparable, or split she faster in reaction or combat speed he faster in travel speed. Flash should be of course faster than both.

When it comes to speed, I see it as that Superman has better raw and mental power in speed (running, flying, thought process and senses) while Wonder Woman has better tactical speed (reaction, combat and instincts). Wonder Woman can almost catch up to him when it comes to raw power but not next to him or pass him as well as Superman in terms of combat speed.[/QUOTE]

Uhm:



I'm still pretty sure bullets and blades are far more common than kryptonite, magic and red suns, even in the DCverse.

Wonder Woman's durability has always been inconsistent.

Tell that to Batman, he didn't get the memo(even after claiming it himself):

By looking at at the scan, Batman is right, everyone needs to breath including Wonder Woman.

But the failure of a part of her arsenal is still one of the problems that get discussed in this thread:

I still think Doomsday has enough force to break the sword, I don't think the Lasso of Truth would work on him because he is pratically a mindless beast, and even if she uses her tiara to cut his throat or any area around his body, his adpative biology would heal from the effects.

Is Supes the maximum of OPness that is allowed, just genuinely curious?

What I said that with Wonder Woman's existing abilities and if she was as strong or stronger than Wonder Woman without any special weakness, and with powerful fighting skills. She would be unstoppable, I rather have Superman be stronger and durable than Wonder Woman so they could all balance each other out, WW already has superior tactical speed and fighting skills so she would be able to hold her own against Superman.

Even a kid can apparently defeat WW with goddamn bullets that bounce off from Supes:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-cont.../19-1.jpg#main
https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-cont...2018/03/20.jpg

Ok now i get an urgent need for a lot of very effective stuff to drink, Wonder Woman became apparently sometimes the closest to being a Mary Sue in comparison to freaking Superman without me noticing. If you also include Batman into that comparison would i rly need something harder than alcohol...

I never really considered Batman to be a mary sue, he's simply a man and his body is vulnerable to forces that both Superman and WW are not. He does have his ups and down, and sometimes he fails before he actually starts succeeding.

they would actually give her the same physicals + actually use her advantages would you be right, but as of now is that idea just absolutely ridiculous especially in comparison to Supes and the goddamn Batman.

Batman's human he has limits and Superman during his first debut in comics has always been about pushing beyond normal physical capablities, I would say that he was the original speedster before Flash comes in and takes the role but Superman's physical assets has always been about his strenght and invulnerability, so he will be physically stronger than WW. Strength is the only thing Superman has in the Justice League, and if you take that away from him by making WW or any other hero/heroine stronger than him then he has no define place in the League. Plus, this movie is about Superman so he would be the one to defeat Doomsday if Superman does show up in Bloodlines (Wonder Woman's movie) and he was fighting magical forces do not expect him to win in that one.

[lotchj]

I just saw the movie!! I don't get the big deal about WW not doing well in her fight with doomsday?? WW, SM,BM and all the other heroes have pretty much become glorify punching bags!! Their just Names Now!! They basically get the crap beat out of them in their comics and their movies!! The villain, the monster or the common criminal are smarter, stronger and more skilled fighter. The heroes only win by miracle save!!! This is pretty much the theme for all their stories, be it in their comics or their movies. Superman got a lucky break and that how he killed doomsday!! Most of the heroes in the comics are just smoke and mirrors!! Don't get me wrong!! I'm pro-hero!! But that just the way I see them being written these days!!

[Amazon Swordsman]

“Superman has strength, and that’s all he has, and if you take that away from him, his becomes pointless to the justice league”

This is patently false. He has several powers unique to him that can edge out WW. In the DCEU, he can fly, and there’s no ambiguity in it at all while the jury’s still out on WW. He’s invulnerable, she’s not. He can spin fast enough to penetrate the ground beneath him. He has heat vision, X-ray vision, and has super cold breath that’s fast and cold enough to freeze things.

I mean...magical armory and tactical skills can only go so far, especially if you have several powers to keep opponents at a distance.

[brettc1]

A female character being slightly lower in stats for one area (strength) than one male character, but surpassing him in others (combat ability and strategy, more adept in dealing with magical threats, and magical weapons like a tiara that can cut his throat and bracelets that can block his heat vision) doesn't strike me as being inbalanced and without equality. Especially when you factor in that she's still stronger than the vast majority of other male heroes in DCU's pantheon. So she dwarfs the majority of the males, and has some potential advantages over the one who is stronger than her (and the gap in strength varies, a lot of the time it isn't even that wide.

Superman fans seem willing to concede Wonder Woman being the better fighter and having magical weapons that can hurt him, and him needing her to bail him out whenever he gets zapped by Circe (seems to happen a lot). Also, Cheetah can pierce his skin with her divine claws and fangs, and actually beat the crap out of him in Batman: Brave and the Bold, which makes WW look good by extension because she can defeat Cheetah. But Wonder Woman fans balk at the idea of Superman being stronger, and not always even exponentially so. Which makes me wonder if they are even asking for equality at all.

Not having read that Brave and Bold story with Cheetah, I cannot comment. If it was on the animated I missed it as well.

I do take on board that Cheetah has sliced and diced him twice in the books - the Jiminez run and New 52.

What would actually go a LONG way towards showing real equality between the two is having Clark have to fight her and think about how hard it is. In any fight I have seen, the inner monologue is always Diana's and it's always about how she can barely keep up with him. If they really are equals, shouldn't he be finding battling against her just as tough? Yet we never see this. Maybe sometimes when they are sparring, but that is not the same thing.

The strong impression I am left with, though, is that is he was in his own book Clark would find a way to beat Cheetah or Circe. On the other hand, I don't think writers would EVER show Diana solo winning against Doomsday. They have fought four times in the books that I can remember and every time she has never even come close to beating him.

I would happily let Clark smack down Cheetah to see Diana take out the big grey behemoth.

[Agent Z]

Wonder Woman's durability has always been inconsistent.

That’s kind of the source of contention.

By looking at at the scan, Batman is right, everyone needs to breath including Wonder Woman.

None of which explains how he’s able to stop her breathing by kicking her.

What I said that with Wonder Woman's existing abilities and if she was as strong or stronger than Wonder Woman without any special weakness, and with powerful fighting skills. She would be unstoppable,.

If you ignore magic, advanced weaponry and other super powers. Not having a kryptonite is not the same as not having weaknesses.

Batman's human he has limits and Superman during his first debut in comics has always been about pushing beyond normal physical capablities, I would say that he was the original speedster before Flash comes in and takes the role but Superman's physical assets has always been about his strenght and invulnerability, so he will be physically stronger than WW. Strength is the only thing Superman has in the Justice League, and if you take that away from him by making WW or any other hero/heroine stronger than him then he has no define place in the League. Plus, this movie is about Superman so he would be the one to defeat Doomsday if Superman does show up in Bloodlines (Wonder Woman's movie) and he was fighting magical forces do not expect him to win in that one.

Except the writers have no problem leaving Diana without any role in the League. She’s not as strong as Superman, not as fast as Flash and they keep giving the role as best fighter, tactician and strategist to Batman. So leaving Superman without a defined place in the League is too bad but we can do the same to WW just fine?

[brettc1]

“Superman has strength, and that’s all he has, and if you take that away from him, his becomes pointless to the justice league”

This is patently false. He has several powers unique to him that can edge out WW. In the DCEU, he can fly, and there’s no ambiguity in it at all while the jury’s still out on WW. He’s invulnerable, she’s not. He can spin fast enough to penetrate the ground beneath him. He has heat vision, X-ray vision, and has super cold breath that’s fast and cold enough to freeze things.

I mean...magical armory and tactical skills can only go so far, especially if you have several powers to keep opponents at a distance.

Take away Superman's strength and what is he?

The combined powers of Cyclops (eye beams) Storm (flight, freezing gale force winds) Wolverine ( fast healing, super hearing and smell) Quicksilver (super speed) and Luke Cage (invulnerability) - with a side dish of microscopic, telescopic, and X-Ray vision.

[brettc1]

I've read every Superman and Wonder Woman appearance, ever published, or close to it.

They're both in my top 5 favorite characters.

Wonder Woman wasn't even as strong as Superboy, who moved an entire galaxy's worth of planets across the Universe.


Or casually overpowered the magnetic pull of more than dozens of supernovas:
https://imgur.com/a/goRvQ

Just by the way, he does NOT overcome the magnetic pull of a dozen supernovas.

Firstly, it's a dozen, not dozens.

Secondly, he is incapable of pulling the sphere off the collar. Instead he has to pull Krypto's collar off because the magnetic attraction to the metal studs is too strong for him to break.

Oh, and a neutron star typically has a mass of between and 1 and and 2 times that of our own sun. In other words, about the same as Wonder Woman was pulling with her lasso.

Oops

PS - he also says the neutron star weighs trillions of tons. That's actually a lot LESS than the mass of the sun, which is about 2 with 30 zeroes after it. Since Neutron stars are usually about 10 kilometers [6 miles] across and this one fits in his hand it must be pretty small for it's stellar family.

The point is, if it's ONLY trillions of tons that's a lot less than the Sun.

[mace11]

With an ave specifically designed for the job that it almost killed him to get a hold of after Thanos had already beaten him once Superman just turns up and BA-DA-BING!

Dead man walking ignores the fact Thanos could have just wound back time ten seconds and avoided the surprise attack.

I disagree with your view and with your other posts.
There are marvel characters on par or have greater power then superman,just like in dc.

DCEU OR COMIC Superman fighting MCU OR COMIC thanos IS NOT beating thanos in a fair fight.
By the way Thor and hulk could move planets in comics just like superman.

Anyway thor and superman in current movies and comics are equal in strength,so if superman could lift the earth for 5 days,so could thor and hulk for example.
Superman was being tested by the way.
Thor could do the same thing if a doctor or scientists was testing him too.
Thor and superman in the comics are more powerful then movie version anyway.
Hulk in the comics is stronger then thor and superman.

Here some other views.

kurse vs zod


#32 Edited by Turr
@heatforce: Say what u want, DCU Superman and MCU Thor are VERY comparable. Durability wise, Thor tanked direct hits from universe-level reality warping infinity stone from Malekith without more then a scratched, and Superman tanked planet-shaping gravity beam and a nuke, but was briefly KO'd both times. I don't think I need to say which is more impressive.

Durability Thor > Sups
Strength Thor = Sups

Speed wise both move in MHS, entering and reentering earths atmosphere in seconds (Thor in Thor 2, Superman in MoS) and neither has FTL feats so far so they are roughly equal as well.

Speed Thor = Sups

Energy projection Thor = Sups

So if anything, they are literally almost exact equals, with Thor being a bit ahead in durability.

So Kurse stomping Thor, and Sups stomping Zod, should obviously give Kurse a win here. Unless you are biased, that is.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums...se-1850012/#86

[Incognito]

If you ignore magic, advanced weaponry and other super powers. Not having a kryptonite is not the same as not having weaknesses.

Kryptonite is one of the few elements that you have a shot of beating Superman as well as red sun radiation, and it could be any character that has those three elements, while Wonder Woman does not have any visible specific physiological weakness, she's second to Superman in terms of strength and durability, and not too far behind The Flashes and Superman in the Top 10 Fastest list, she is ranked 7th on the list but she is still fast. EDIT: After looking back at my post, WW's physiological weakness could be similar to a human physiology, but it is just that her body can take the amount of physical damage and reduce the needs of bodily necessities than a normal humans, WW would still need to require food, water, sleep, air and body temperature regulation.

Conventional weaponry would not affect her that much (even though her durability level has always changed, and it shouldn't since she could trade punches with Superman) and she is resistant to physical forces, heroes and villains would have to be lucky and be hopeful if they could wear her down, I would say that the only trouble for WW trouble is if she is fighting an opponent who is either equal or more powerful than her. Wonder Woman is not a normal human, so she would not be physically be taken out easily.

Except the writers have no problem leaving Diana without any role in the League. She’s not as strong as Superman, not as fast as Flash and they keep giving the role as best fighter, tactician and strategist to Batman. So leaving Superman without a defined place in the League is too bad but we can do the same to WW just fine?

Wonder Woman may not be as strong as Superman or as fast as the flash, but I would say she (or Martian Manhunter) is the best all-arounder. I would say that WW's role in the JL should be that she is the best fighter and tactician, the one where would lead you to battle and the role for the best strategist should be for Batman.

[brettc1]

I disagree with your view and with your other posts.
There are marvel characters on par or have greater power then superman,just like in dc.

DCEU OR COMIC Superman fighting MCU OR COMIC thanos IS NOT beating thanos in a fair fight.
By the way Thor and hulk could move planets in comics just like superman.

Anyway thor and superman in current movies and comics are equal in strength,so if superman could lift the earth for 5 days,so could thor and hulk for example.
Superman was being tested by the way.
Thor could do the same thing if a doctor or scientists was testing him too.
Thor and superman in the comics are more powerful then movie version anyway.
Hulk in the comics is stronger then thor and superman.

Here some other views.

In comics crossover Superman has ko'd both Thor and the Hulk.

Even BATMAn has beaten the Hulk - usining, incidentally, the same lame kick to the gut trick he used to beat Wonder Wonan in other posts here.

It's also interesting that in crossovers like Marvel Vs DC, Wonder Woman gets matched up against Storm. I mean, why? They are nothing alike in powers! Thor fight Capt Marvel, Superman fight Hulk. That makes sense - they have very similar powers. The only thing similar about Diana and Ororo is they are girls.

[Agent Z]

Kryptonite is one of the few elements that you have a shot of beating Superman as well as red sun radiation, and it could be any character that has those three elements, while Wonder Woman does not have any visible specific physiological weakness, she's second to Superman in terms of strength and durability, and not too far behind The Flashes and Superman in the Top 10 Fastest list, she is ranked 7th on the list but she is still fast. EDIT: After looking back at my post, WW's physiological weakness could be similar to a human physiology, but it is just that her body can take the amount of physical damage and reduce the needs of bodily necessities than a normal humans, WW would still need to require food, water, sleep, air and body temperature regulation.

Conventional weaponry would not affect her that much (even though her durability level has always changed, and it shouldn't since she could trade punches with Superman) and she is resistant to physical forces, heroes and villains would have to be lucky and be hopeful if they could wear her down, I would say that the only trouble for WW trouble is if she is fighting an opponent who is either equal or more powerful than her. Wonder Woman is not a normal human, so she would not be physically be taken out easily.




Wonder Woman may not be as strong as Superman or as fast as the flash, but I would say she (or Martian Manhunter) is the best all-arounder. I would say that WW's role in the JL should be that she is the best fighter and tactician, the one where would lead you to battle and the role for the best strategist should be for Batman.

None of the superpowered members of the JL should be taken out easily. Hell even Superman's weaknesses don't mean much these days and writers have had him simply shrug them off.

That should be the case in theory but you wouldn't be able to tell that from the way she's written in most JL stories.

[NYCER]

Just saw the movie and it is awful.

I agree with posters who stated that Wonder Woman is supposed to be as strong as Superman. You cannot factor out sexism as one of the possible reasons why Wonder Woman's power levels relative to her male counterpart in the DCU, DCEU and DCAU decreased, which is a significant deviation from Marston's original intent in creating a female superhero who is as strong as Superman. Putting aside current cultural and political tectonic shifts in the real world, the men who succeeded Marston simply moved away from Marston's idea of how strong Wonder Woman is supposed to be. For God's sakes, Diana was stripped of her powers completely thanks to male writers and artists. Did Superman have an equivalent stretch in his publication history wherein he was powerless as Diana was after undergoing that "Amazon rite of renunciation?" Sexism is indeed relevant to this topic.

As for the other aspects of the film, I disagree with earlier comments stating that the powerhouses of the JL were specifically needed here to be used as punching bags to illustrate the power of this updated animated Doomsday. There's a reason the original JL members were NOT around in the books and in their places were D-listers in that particular roster of that time period's JL membership because those D-listers were expected to fail to stop Doomsday. As an aside, IIRC even Bruce Timm subdued Doomsday albeit by the Justice Lords whose power levels were the same as their analogs whose moral compasses differed from the authoritarian Justice Lords'.

It was also hard to accept the out of nowhere love story for Superman and Lois Lane in the DCAU continuity just so the Clark-Lois pairing would match the books when the JL DCAU retained the New 52 romantic relationship between Wonder Woman and Superman for several movies.

What irritates me the most is how this movie portrayed Diana as a jealous and passive aggressive ex despite her statement that her romantic relationship with Kal was good while it lasted but her words implied she had not moved on. Clingy, for lack of a better word, is NOT who Diana is. It was a terrible fix by the filmmakers in order to make the Superman-Lois relationship consistent with the books because they did it at Diana's expense.

As mentioned above, we've had several movies showing that Diana and Kal loved each other. Then we find out in this movie that they'd broken up and we now see a Diana who makes digs at Superman for his inability to be honest with Lois (unlike how he was honest with Diana about his life) and does petty things like Diana walking away from the JL meeting table when Clark started yakking about Lois not being in the know about his entire life the way Iris knows everything about Barry.

I'll be skipping the sequel. Based on the special features, it doesn't look like Diana will be in it anyway. Appropriate thread title: this lackluster animated flick is a major disappointment for Wonder Woman and her fans indeed.