Wonder Woman vs. Doomsday: Death of Superman: Major Disappointment

[brettc1]

Sure! Just look at all those Superman ripoffs Marvel has!

I'm not sure it counts as a rip-off if you take somebody else's flawed concept and turn it into something that actually works

[Vanguard-01]

I'm not sure it counts as a rip-off if you take somebody else's flawed concept and turn it into something that actually works

Sure. That's why Sentry, Hyperion, Blue Marvel, etc are such hot sellers.

[RepHope]

I'm not sure it counts as a rip-off if you take somebody else's flawed concept and turn it into something that actually works

Too bad they’ve never done that. Hyperion, Sentry, and Blue Marvel can’t sell for jack. Carol, the “WW” of Marvel can’t last one year without a new relaunch because her sales are so terrible.

[WonderScott]

Just once I'd like to see Diana as the last woman standing in a throw down in and epic animated throw down between the Justice League and Doomsday, Darkseid, Zod, Ultraman, etc.

Side note: Like the X-Men and Titans before them, I'd be really interested in the JL training sometimes and then showing the training off in a battle against some incredible blow. Seeing how they would coordinate and combine their powers and attacks is something I always dream up.

::starts writing a Justice League action scene for my first attempt at a Justice League story.::

[SiegePerilous02]

Of course, the OTHER option is to follow MARVELs lead and not have any single character who is just ridiculously over powered

What Marvel does is irrelevant, because the two universes are not the same. If people want to read Marvel, they can go read Marvel.

And Marvel has Jean Grey, who makes everyone else irrelevant whenever she happens to be around and could wipe out Superman with her mind, so they are not immune to having one character be the top dog in their superhero community.

I'm not sure it counts as a rip-off if you take somebody else's flawed concept and turn it into something that actually works

Yeah, that's why we see Marvel pumping out all that Sentry and Hyperion merchandise and why the MCU is fast tracking a trilogy for each of them as we speak.

[Guy_McNichts]

Oh...? They did a Death of Superman/Doomsday story that features Wonder Woman and the rest of the Justice League looking like useless chumps?

Let me put on my stunned face.

Maybe this story wouldn't bother me so much if Doomsday was actually a decent character with a compelling reason why Superman and Superman alone can take him and die in the process.
As opposed to: he can punch really, really hard. And only Superman can stop him by punching him really, really, REALLY hard.

As others have pointed out, at least in the original story, the Justice League consisted of mid-level (for lack of a better term) characters that could believably be outmatched by Doomsday.
But I'm supposed to buy the combined might of Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter and whoever else gets thrown under this bus can't punch him hard enough together...even though some of them are supposed to be on par with Superman in strength by themselves and allegedly great warriors with access to fantastic weaponry and powers.

No, they're thoroughly outclassed by the lumbering doofus that can only be defeated by Superman punching him to death.

And this is where you get into the "Superman is holding back" crap which is up there with Batman's prep time as one of the most obnoxious pieces of fan-service in comics. Superman can end the fight at any time but doesn't because...reasons.
Oh, right--he's afraid of hurting someone. He's afraid of hurting the genocidal monster tearing apart the city. He's afraid of hurting the walking embodiment of evil. He could easily slaughter all the other heroes and there's not a damn thing they could do to stop him, but luckily he's a nice guy.

You know at least when Goku pulls this stuff--like going from Super Saiyan 2 to 3 to God--it's accompanied with a transformation and it's supposed to be draining and taking a toll on his body. He doesn't just spontaneously decide, "Okay, I'm going to fight for real now."

It's a slap in the face to all the other characters and, frankly, it's a disservice to Superman, too. This storyline or some variation of it gets rehashed again and again (seriously, this is the third or fourth adaptation of it) as the big defining Superman story that cements why he matters and is the greatest hero of them all.

[SPOILER]Because he punches the hardest.[/SPOILER]

All it does it reduce him to flying brick.

I've said this before, when the Justice League movie came out, and I stand by it:
If Superman's to exist in a shared universe with other protagonists, he shouldn't render them obsolete...yet DC loves doing stories that remind the audience absolutely no one--neither individually, nor collectively as a group--can match him or fill the void of his absence. And, I'm sorry, but that's a load of BS.

I understand Superman's thing--his gimmick--is that he's the "best hero," so having anyone challenge him in any way seems wrong. But he can be the "strongest" hero without stomping all over the others...some of whom are supposed to be "the best" or strongest in their own way (such as Wonder Woman).

So either don't make him more powerful than everyone else combined...or don't put him in a shared universe.

And for god's sake, enough with the Death/Return of Superman already. Find better Superman stories.

[Guy_McNichts]

EDIT:
As long as CBR is acting glitchy for some reason, I'll throw this out there, too:

You know how I'd do a "Superman dies fighting Doomsday" story?

For starters, don't involve the rest of the Justice League. At least no the heavy-hitters like Wonder Woman. She & the rest of the League wants to help fight Doomsday, but they're occupied with other things—saving civilians from the collateral damage or are just unavailable. So Superman faces him alone and dies in the process.

And rather than do the "Superman is always holding back, but stops" crap that I can't stand...maybe in desperation, Superman flies to the sun and soaks up an overload of solar energy. This juices him up enough to put down Doomsday, but the strain of it is what kills him, too....again, as opposed to they just punch each other to death.

And you could keep going with the rest of the League. Maybe Diana feels guilty she wasn't there to help when Clark needed her. She feels she let him down and that can factor in the rest of the story? Maybe she plays a key part in Superman's resurrection, giving her redemption and closure.

Just spit-balling.

[brettc1]

Sure. That's why Sentry, Hyperion, Blue Marvel, etc are such hot sellers.

Too bad they’ve never done that. Hyperion, Sentry, and Blue Marvel can’t sell for jack. Carol, the “WW” of Marvel can’t last one year without a new relaunch because her sales are so terrible.

Ah, I see the misunderstanding.

No, I was referring to Thor - super strong, cosmic powers, flies, but is NOT insanely OP like Clark to the point where you have to nerf him, work some special vulnerability into the story, or brace for the onslaught of fan rage when he can't do it all himself while the Avengers look on in awe.

If you want to talk poor sales check out Justice League. The super fans might be leaping for joy but there aren't any WB execs doing a happy financial jig.

[brettc1]

What Marvel does is irrelevant, because the two universes are not the same. If people want to read Marvel, they can go read Marvel.

Or see their Avengers movies. Oh wait - they do.

And Marvel has Jean Grey, who makes everyone else irrelevant whenever she happens to be around and could wipe out Superman with her mind, so they are not immune to having one character be the top dog in their superhero community.

Doesn't she spend more than half the time either depowered or dead?

Kinda makes my point.

[Sacred Knight]

Wait what?
Outside of some absolutely terrible fan service versions of Supes should Flash, GL, MM, Batman, Aquaman and Hawkman together easily mop the floor with him without jobbing, add in Diana and it gets even more one-sided.

If that's fan service, then virtually most of his 80 year history is a fan service, because in general (I stress that, naturally there has been discrepencies every now and again, hell recently they tried to tout the new Damage is as strong as Superman to push him as a character), outside of the post-Crisis period, Superman's always been stronger than all of them put together. If we're talking brute strength, and I am. There are characters who are close, like MM and Diana, but they're always a tier below Superman. Its definitely more reasonable now, while he's no longer even close to as nerfed as he was in the immediate post-Crisis days, neither is he Silver Age level and I doubt he ever will be again, but on the sliding scale he's still in general the strongest hero, and its generally at to the degree where its his thing that he can "take on all comers", whether its beating GL, Batman, and Flash combined in JL #1, or busting through a wall of GL's (can't remember what story that was).

[SiegePerilous02]

If you want to talk poor sales check out Justice League.

You mean the movie that was abysmal before Superman and his horrible lips even showed up? The one where Affleck and Gadot looked like they'd rather be anywhere else? I'm not sure how Superman being less powerful would have saved that thing. We'd still have to deal with the horrible special effects and a lousy plot. Everyone would have gotten something to do, but they'd still be doing crappy things and leaving everyone in the audience embarrassed on their behalf.

The super fans might be leaping for joy

Not really, it was like 10 minutes in a bad movie with horrible CGI lips, there is no leaping for joy here.

At most they liked him a bit more than they had previously. And so did the GA, the ones who bothered to even show up at least.

but there aren't any WB execs doing a happy financial jig.

And they only have themselves to blame for that.

Or see their Avengers movies. Oh wait - they do.

Marvel makes good movies (or at least average movies that are not offensively bad, if generic). JL was not that. And I'm talking about the comics as well, not just the movies. DC has published several great runs and comics without aping Marvel's style, and when they do ape Marvel's style, it does not automatically lead to success. What is the point of both publishers putting out the same style of books?

The GA would also see a Superman movie with him at this power level if buzz was good. If a better done JL movie kept him as the strongest but provided a threat that allowed everyone to have moments, they'd see that too. They do not get hung up on power levels the way comic fans do. They just want good movies, are they any comments from the non-comic reading public that Superman being OP was a turn off for that movie? Or was it the movie being bad that did it?

Doesn't she spend more than half the time either depowered or dead?

Kinda makes my point.

Well she's back now, and it's only a matter of time before we get more Phoenix stories. If she's seperated from the PF for now, it won't last.

The "she's too powerful so we have to kill her off" mentality has always reeked of laziness and lack of imagination on Marvel's part, IMO.

[RepHope]

Ah, I see the misunderstanding.

No, I was referring to Thor - super strong, cosmic powers, flies, but is NOT insanely OP like Clark to the point where you have to nerf him, work some special vulnerability into the story, or brace for the onslaught of fan rage when he can't do it all himself while the Avengers look on in awe.

If you want to talk poor sales check out Justice League. The super fans might be leaping for joy but there aren't any WB execs doing a happy financial jig.

Thor IS insanely OP you have no clue what you’re talking about. Thanos literally said Thor had aimed for his head, he would have died. Also you have Hulk in the original Avengers making Loki look like a joke. JL flopped because Snyder’s a terrible director and Whedon had to do a rush job to try to salvage it. It was a terrible movie before Supes showed up and it was terrible afterwards.

[Rightoya]

If that's fan service, then virtually most of his 80 year history is fan service

Would it surprise you if i told you that the majority of his history before Crisis on Infinity Earth was actually fan service(i even still like good amounts of it, but DC finally needs to learn that they can't bring such **** today anymore without causing unnecessary problems left and right).?

, because in general (I stress that, naturally there has been discrepencies every now and again, hell recently they tried to tout the new Damage is as strong as Superman to push him as a character), outside of the post-Crisis period, Superman's always been stronger than all of them put together.

Not in Post Crisis(like you mentioned and probably the time where it get handled the best way), not in New 52 and sure as hell also not in Rebirth. Which is what i meant with modern age.

If we're talking brute strength, and I am.

How are you even define brute strength if we have Martian Manhunter's superior hax, Wonder Woman's superior weapons, Flash's superior speed, etc... all at once?

There are characters who are close like MM and Diana

It seems pretty illogical to have at least two close characters who are somehow together + others weaker?

, but they're always a tier below Superman.

I disagreee and they would be obviously not close in that case. But it happens indeed still sometimes and is pretty much just always garbage.

Its definitely more reasonable now, while he's no longer even close to as nerfed as he was in the immediate post-Crisis days, neither is he Silver Age level and I doubt he ever will be again

I would say Supes and WW are currently still pretty nerfed, WW even more so than Supes though.

but on the sliding scale he's still in general the strongest hero

Do you just mean in terms of physical strength, cause after CoIE was Supes actually never the most powerful hero on earth without amps?

and its generally at to the degree where its his thing that he can "take on all comers", whether its beating GL, Batman, and Flash combined in JL #1, or busting through a wall of GL's (can't remember what story that was).

That are actually the still sometimes existing terrible fan service versions/stories i was talking about, that are just disrespectful to everyone else(pretty much like most of the Bat-God nonsense too).

[Sacred Knight]

Would it surprise you if i told you that the majority of his history before Crisis on Infinity Earth was actually fan service(i even still like good amounts of it, but DC finally needs to learn that they can't bring such **** today anymore without causing unnecessary problems left and right).?

Not at all. In many ways it is. But the stories exist and are part of the over-all history of the character all the same, so its why I say that in general he's stronger than everyone else by a pretty notable margin. And yeah, I'm just talking physical strength here. But hey, maybe someone writes a story tomorrow of four league members teaming up against Superman and beating him. There's no stringent rule that you are forced to abide by, I don't mean to sound like there is. That's why I used the word "general" so much. I'm just talking the general history of how he's been written. Personally I'd love it if Wonder Woman had the same history and was written on the same level more often. Its just that historically she hasn't been.

But bias's come into play too. Superman's my favorite hero so I don't mind that he used to be written so hax and occasionally still is. Likewise Diana's my second favorite so I wouldn't mind if the same thing happened for her; there's just not as many actual examples of it in history.

[SiegePerilous02]

Thor IS insanely OP you have no clue what you’re talking about. Thanos literally said Thor had aimed for his head, he would have died. Also you have Hulk in the original Avengers making Loki look like a joke. JL flopped because Snyder’s a terrible director and Whedon had to do a rush job to try to salvage it. It was a terrible movie before Supes showed up and it was terrible afterwards.

Yeah, Thor dealt a killing blow. Had he dealt an instantaneous killing blow, that would have been the end of the movie. Thanos just had more impressive minions for the rest of the Avengers to go up against than Steppenwolf did with the League. And better special effects backing him up, leading to a better RT score and a better box office (among other things). There really isn't much difference in how Superman and Thor's power levels are portrayed, Thor even spends most of the movie out of the action and away from the rest of the heroes, and turns the tide when he shows up.

Not at all. In many ways it is. But the stories exist and are part of the over-all history of the character all the same, so its why I say that in general he's stronger than everyone else by a pretty notable margin.

For what it's worth, I have to agree with other posters that Superman being stronger than the rest of the League combined is way too much. Wonder Woman alone should be able to challenge him and even beat him in some circumstances (though it shouldn't be an easy victory, and vice versa for him). But he should be the physical strongest, and the overall most powerful individual members. That doesn't mean, say, Wonder Woman and an experienced Flash (unlike the movie version, who barely knew how his powers worked) working in tandem couldn't take him out if needed.