Wonder Woman vs. Doomsday: Death of Superman: Major Disappointment

[brettc1]

Of course there isn't. She just, albiet outside of the original intent, for the vast majority of her history has been and still is physically not as strong as Superman.

The vast majority of her history meaning since she was incorporated into a shared universe with (yes, you guessed it) Superman.

Oddly she is spooked to be "stronger than Hercules and swifter than Mercury", and yet Capt. Marvel/Shazam has the strength and speed OF These gods and is shown as Clark's equal.

It's not a conspiracy, because a conspiracy implies secret collusion. There was nothing secret about Wonder Woman being dropped down several pegs in the shared universe where the writers after Marston had no interest in a woman who was Superman's physical equal. What we have now is lingering taint of that thinking.

[GodofBoredom]

The vast majority of her history meaning since she was incorporated into a shared universe with (yes, you guessed it) Superman.

Oddly she is spooked to be "stronger than Hercules and swifter than Mercury", and yet Capt. Marvel/Shazam has the strength and speed OF These gods and is shown as Clark's equal.

It's not a conspiracy, because a conspiracy implies secret collusion. There was nothing secret about Wonder Woman being dropped down several pegs in the shared universe where the writers after Marston had no interest in a woman who was Superman's physical equal. What we have now is lingering taint of that thinking.

If she were physically equal to Superman, she'd make him redundant, considering she's much more skilled, magical, with a sword that cuts through anything, with a bracelet that blocks anything, and with a lasso that bounds everybody.

She also has no weakness, compared to kryptonite, red sun and magic.

Give her a GL ring (I'm pretty sure you'd say her willpower should be high enough to handle one), and the Justice League can go on vacation.

She has never been as strong as Superman. This is consistent, among the entire comic book publishing history, to the point where I'm honestly amazed a small amount people still exist that cling to their internalized fan-fiction. It doesn't matter what writers say, Gladiator was created to be Pre-Crisis Superman, Thor was created to be stronger than Hulk, and much more, what matters is what's published, not what writers say in interviews to stroke egos.

You're going into 'secret collusion' paranoia that is, quite frankly, embarrassing.

She's a badass warrior, with OP weapons, tactical ability, fighting ability second to none and physical ability second ONLY to Superman, who has none of the former. The longer you continue this inferiority-complex based "but she also has to be as strong!!!", the more people will face palm.

Doomsday is a physically nigh-unstoppable being, which makes him tailor made for Superman. Wonder Woman losing to him, when that's not her strength, is not bad. The same way Superman losing to Circe, while Wonder Woman beats her, is not bad for him.

[brettc1]

She has never been as strong as Superman. This is consistent, among the entire comic book publishing history, to the point where I'm honestly amazed a small amount people still exist that cling to their internalized fan-fiction.

Wonder Woman tows the sun, an object with that holds 99% of the total mass of the Solar System and 'weighs' the same as 330,000 Earth type planets.

A story from prior to the merge with Superman and the other male heroes, obviously.

The small amount of people you are referring to are actually the ones who know the comprehensive history of the character.

Of course, this kind of feat is totally absurd. We know it's ridiculous - but it's exactly as ridiculous as some of the feats you see Superman getting up to at around the same time or just after. Somehow when Superman graduated to chaining a hundred planets together and dragging them across the universe, Wonder Woman was no longer seen doing this kind of thing. Weird, right?

Regarding her never having been shown in a comic to have strength equal to Superman - I'm not necessarily expecting you to admit you are wrong. But you are.

[GodofBoredom]

Wonder Woman tows the sun, an object with that holds 99% of the total mass of the Solar System and 'weighs' the same 330,000 Earth type planets.

The small amount of people you are referring to are actually the ones who know the comprehensive history of the character.

I'm not necessarily expecting you to admit you are wrong. But you are.

I've read every Superman and Wonder Woman appearance, ever published, or close to it.

They're both in my top 5 favorite characters.

Wonder Woman wasn't even as strong as Superboy, who moved an entire galaxy's worth of planets across the Universe.


Or casually overpowered the magnetic pull of more than dozens of supernovas:
https://imgur.com/a/goRvQ

This is orders of magnitude stronger than Wonder Woman's best strength showing, and he was a teenager.

Superman was moving suns with his super-breath, and evaporating solar system with a sneeze.

And much, much more. It's not even close. You really don't know their history.

[brettc1]

I've read every Superman and Wonder Woman appearance, ever published, or close to it.

They're both in my top 5 favorite characters.

Wonder Woman wasn't even as strong as Superboy, who moved an entire galaxy's worth of planets across the Universe.


Or casually overpowered the magnetic pull of more than dozens of supernovas:
https://imgur.com/a/goRvQ

This is orders of magnitude stronger than Wonder Woman's best strength showing, and he was a teenager.

Superman was moving suns with his super-breath, and evaporating solar system with a sneeze.

And much, much more. It's not even close. You really don't know their history.

Oh yes I know all of these. Let me explain to you and others reading why you're mistaken again.

First, it wasn't every planet in a galaxy. Just the inhabited ones. Assuming it's an average size galaxy, that's gonna be less than 330,000 of them, which is what you'd need to equal the mass of one Sun type star.

But the biggest reason you are mistaken is that most if not all of the feats you're describing happened AFTER the "merge" of the characters of Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman. When she first appeared, Marston never saw her as occupying a shared universe with Clark Kent.

That Superman sneeze you mentioned was in a comic from 1961. The reason this is significant is that when Wonder Woman first appearance in a comic with Superman [and Batman] in 1947 was six years after she began appearing in her own book, but also significantly the same year in which her creator Marston passed away [in May] and other writers took over her title. After Marston's death there were never, to my knowledge and apparently yours, stories where Wonder Woman displayed the same level of strength as Superman might.

So I would argue that the reason Wonder Woman has so many fewer feats of truly ludicrous strength such as Superman demonstrates is that the man who saw her as his equal and wrote her that way died. Those who followed had no interest in showing her as she was intended to be and changed her levels according to their Superman#1-oriented world view.

In short, Wonder Woman was downgraded and denied the feats she was shown as BEING capable of, and then this was [and still is] used as 'proof' she could never do them in the first place.

It's rubbish.

[Rightoya]

If she were physically equal to Superman, she'd make him redundant

Like Shazam/Cpt. Marvel does?

considering she's much more skilled

How often gets that shown again, especially currently?

magical

Like Shazam/Cpt. Marvel and how often gets that shown again(just read all the discussion about Justice League Dark)?

with a sword that cuts through anything

Except Doomsday, which is part of the problem here:

with a bracelet that blocks anything, and with a lasso that bounds everybody.

Too bad that this barely ever works huh?

She also has no weakness, compared to kryptonite, red sun and magic.

Yeah sure, no weakness at all:




Now we just need to find out if kryptonite, red sun and magic or bullets and blades are more common...

Continuation in the next post.

[Rightoya]

Give her a GL ring (I'm pretty sure you'd say her willpower should be high enough to handle one), and the Justice League can go on vacation.

You mean like Supes:



And Batman get portrayed all the time:

She has never been as strong as Superman. This is consistent, among the entire comic book publishing history

So consistent that DC, writers and even Supes himself claimed countless of times the opposite:



And since when is history a good arguments anyways? Is Robinson's WW run actually just a missunderstood masterpiece that honored Wonder Woman's past of often shitty writing and laughable decisions by DC?

to the point where I'm honestly amazed a small amount people still exist that cling to their internalized fan-fiction.

Excpecting from DC and the writers to respect characters besides Batman and Supes is internalized fan-fiction(probably true but that makes it not better at all, does it)?

It doesn't matter what writers say, Gladiator was created to be Pre-Crisis Superman, Thor was created to be stronger than Hulk, and much more, what matters is what's published, not what writers say in interviews to stroke egos.

And if people simpy don't like what's published and want changes?

You're going into 'secret collusion' paranoia that is, quite frankly, embarrassing.

If secret collusion means open sexism in WW's history and terrible writing to offer the rest of the JL as tribute for Batman's and Supes sake is that probably a paranoia i share with him...

She's a badass warrior, with OP weapons, tactical ability, fighting ability second to none and physical ability second ONLY to Superman, who has none of the former.

Where were all these amazing things against Doomsday in the movie, Doomsday in the comics, Supes in the DCEU as she was basically a statue to him and Supes in several comics(League for One as prime example where they even basically dissed the rest of the JL too)?

The longer you continue this inferiority-complex based "but she also has to be as strong!!!", the more people will face palm.

Funny i just face palm about Jason, Super Mary Sue, Bat-God, most of the DCEU and DC's history with Wonder Woman...

Doomsday is a physically nigh-unstoppable being, which makes him tailor made for Superman.

And how exactly has this: She's a badass warrior, with OP weapons, tactical ability, fighting ability second to none and physical ability second ONLY to Superman
no effect on him, is that some kind of toon-force style comic logic?

Wonder Woman losing to him, when that's not her strength, is not bad. The same way Superman losing to Circe, while Wonder Woman beats her, is not bad for him.

How often does that happen in comparison and when outwrestled Batman Doomsday like he outspelled Circe?

My first problem in this thread was Supes should be Super Mary Sue and more powerful than the rest of the JL together, but i have also a big problem if someone uses the barely ever respected lip-service by DC as excuse why WW can't be as strong as Supes. Especially with another terrible excuse like history(we're supposed to learn from history not to repeat the same mistakes over and over again, we just sadly do the latter way to often).

[BiteTheBullet]

You mean like Supes:



And Batman get portrayed all the time:






So consistent that DC, writers and even Supes himself claimed countless of times the opposite:



And since when is history a good arguments anyways? Is Robinson's WW run actually just a missunderstood masterpiece that honored Wonder Woman's past of often shitty writing and laughable decisions by DC?



Excpecting from DC and the writers to respect characters besides Batman and Supes is internalized fan-fiction(probably true but that makes it not better at all, does it)?



And if people simpy don't like what's published and want changes?



If secret collusion means open sexism in WW's history and terrible writing to offer the rest of the JL as tribute for Batman's and Supes sake is that probably a paranoia i share with him...



Where were all these amazing things against Doomsday in the movie, Doomsday in the comics, Supes in the DCEU as she was basically a statue to him and Supes in several comics(League for One as prime example where they even basically dissed the rest of the JL too)?



Funny i just face palm about Jason, Super Mary Sue, Bat-God, most of the DCEU and DC's history with Wonder Woman...



And how exactly has this: She's a badass warrior, with OP weapons, tactical ability, fighting ability second to none and physical ability second ONLY to Superman
no effect on him, is that some kind of toon-force style comic logic?



How often does that happen in comparison and when outwrestled Batman Doomsday like he outspelled Circe.

My first problem in this thread was Supes should be Super Mary Sue and more powerful than the rest of the JL together, but i have also a big problem if someone uses the barely ever respected lip-service by DC as excuse why WW can't be as strong as Supes. Especially with another excuse like history.

Awesome post!!!!

[GodofBoredom]

Oh yes I know all of these.

Obviously, you do not, otherwise you wouldn't be saying things that are demonstrably wrong.

I'm giving you the benefit of a doubt and assume you're doing this due to obvious lack of knowledge.

Don't worry though, I have time for some astronomy courses.

First, it wasn't every planet in a galaxy. Just the inhabited ones. Assuming it's an average size galaxy, that's gonna be less than 330,000 of them, which is what you'd need to equal the mass of one Sun type star.

I think you need to expand on that 'knowledge' of yours.

Let me help.

First of all, the sun is 330,000 times bigger than the Earth. Not all planets in the galaxy are Earth sized, in fact, Earth is considered a small planet ouside our solar system.

That's fact #1.

Moving on..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_analog

On November 4, 2013, astronomers reported, based on Kepler space mission data, that there could be as many as 40 billion Earth-sized planets orbiting in the habitable zones of Sun-like stars and red dwarf stars within the Milky Way galaxy. 11 billion of these estimated planets may be orbiting Sun-like stars.

Also, there's 200 billion solar systems in our galaxy.
https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/review/d...in-galaxy.html

There's 40 billion Earth like planets in our galaxy, alone. In the fictional world of DC, on top of that, we have alien species on planets which live on planets that aren't even like that of Earth.

Even if we divide that number by a factor of 1,000, that still makes Superman much, much, much stronger than Wonder Woman.

That's fact #2.

Furthermore, you've ignored what I've stated.

Superman has moved a star with his breath:



Superman has sneezed away a solar system:



Superman's breath is comparable to Wonder Woman's greatest strength feat.

Superboy throws into another galaxy a compressed dwarf star exerting the pull greater than a dozen supernovas:



Superboy's casual arm strength is far, far above Wonder Woman's.

Suffice to say, the difference is enormous.

But the biggest reason you are mistaken is that most if not all of the feats you're describing happened AFTER the "merge" of the characters of Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman. When she first appeared, Marston never saw her as occupying a shared universe with Clark Kent.

That Superman sneeze you mentioned was in a comic from 1961. The reason this is significant is that when Wonder Woman first appearance in a comic with Superman [and Batman] in 1947 was six years after she began appearing in her own book, but also significantly the same year in which her creator Marston passed away [in May] and other writers took over her title. After Marston's death there were never, to my knowledge and apparently yours, stories where Wonder Woman displayed the same level of strength as Superman might.

So I would argue that the reason Wonder Woman has so many fewer feats of truly ludicrous strength such as Superman demonstrates is that the man who saw her as his equal and wrote her that way died. Those who followed had no interest in showing her as she was intended to be and changed her levels according to their Superman#1-oriented world view.

In short, Wonder Woman was downgraded and denied the feats she was shown as being capable of, and then this was [and still is] used as 'proof' she could never do them in the first place.

It's rubbish.

So the evil patriarchy conspired to depower Wonder Woman after Marston died, to show her as inferior to Superman?

Tell me more.

Furthermore, and this is the most hilarious part, you're saying that Wonder Woman is treated unfairly as inferior to Superman, when you admit that ever since 1947 she was portrayed as inferior to him. That same year when she and Superman started sharing the Universe. That's 71 years out of 77 in total, of her entire existence.

In other words, how Wonder Woman compares to Superman shouldn't be based on the 71 years history of common-Universe they shared, but on the 6 years history in which they were not even part of the same continuity, because her creator once mentioned that she wants her to be Superman for women.

Futher-furthermore, you cherry pick what you want for Marston, which is her strength, but I assume you're not into her being depowered by being tied and such, no? Haha.

[GodofBoredom]

Like Shazam/Cpt. Marvel does?

That's a pretty good attempt at deflection, but answer the question, which is: Do you dispute that Wonder Woman being physically equal to Superman, but on top of that having the lasso, bracers, shield and no weakness makes him redundant?

She'd be literally everything he is, but better. Unless you think Heat vision/Freeze breath > lasso, bracelets, sword, fighting skills. Hmmmm...

How often gets that shown again, especially currently?

Are you being sarcastic?

It's been clearly shown in Superman/Wonder Woman by Charles Soule.
It's been clearly shown in the Trinity arc, when they're all depowered, and very directly stated.
It's been clearly shown in Justice League.
Hell, you can really read anything, or watch anything, and Wonder Woman is so much more skilled than Superman, that she makes him look like a hobo.

He is a brawler, she is a martial artist and tactician.

Man, do you even read the character you're arguing for?

Like Shazam/Cpt. Marvel and how often gets that shown again(just read all the discussion about Justice League Dark)?

Can you reformulate that sentence, because it makes no sense in comparison to what I said.

If you're asking how many times Captain Marvel's magic is played up against Superman, the answer is very often.

You can look at the tv animated film Superman/Batman: Public Enemies where it's explicitly stated.
You can look at the comic, of the same arc, where it's explicitly stated.
You can look at tv animated film Superman/Captain Marvel vs Black Adam, where it's explicitly stated.
You can look at the Eclipso arc, Lightning Strikes Twice, where it's explicitly stated.
You can look at Kingdom Come, only the most famous Superman/Captain Marvel story, where it's explicitly stated.

You can look at.....I could go on, and on, and on.

Do you even comics, bro?

Except Doomsday, which is part of the problem here:

Was it a problem when Ares shatttered it? Or Katana shattered it?

The sword did just fine against Darkseid, which she blinded.

Too bad that this barely ever works huh?

The bracelets have deflected Darkseid's omega beams.

By comparison, Superman was one-shotted by them.

Come again?

Yeah sure, no weakness at all:

That is a weakness that depends on the writer. It's only recently that it's been put an emphasis on.

Kryptonite, red sun and magic are under every writer.

You mean like Supes:


And Batman get portrayed all the time:

I don't think you were able to follow the argument here.

Just because Batman, or Superman, or Wonder Woman (League of One, have you read that at least? or we're a negative there, too?) can beat the Justice League, does not make the league irrelevant. John Stewart has beaten the whole Justice League (see Green Lantern Rebirth, hopefully you've read that!), Hal Jordan has, too. Guess what? Yeah..

Wonder Woman taking Superman's niche (physical ability), and then adding to that her lasso, sword and bracelets, as well as her fighting skill, only makes him irrelevant.

So consistent that DC, writers and even Supes himself claimed countless of times the opposite:

http://i.imgur.com/JfMeCq2.jpg

That's not Superman talking. Dude, read the comics. Seriously. It's boring having to correct you.

Do you want me to post dozens of scans of Superman being called the most powerful being on Earth, many times with Wonder Woman standing right next to him?

And since when is history a good arguments anyways? Is Robinson's WW run actually just a missunderstood masterpiece that honored Wonder Woman's past of often shitty writing and laughable decisions by DC?

History is the only valid canon. So yes, character portrayals being informed by history is, actually, the only way to go.

I'm....terribly sorry, but I can't accept fan-fiction.

Excpecting from DC and the writers to respect characters besides Batman and Supes is internalized fan-fiction(probably true but that makes it not better at all, does it)?

Wonder Woman gets respect only if she's as strong as Superman? In the movie this thread is about, she outperformed the entire Justice League, minus Superman. Do you see Hal fans complaining? Batman fans? No.

What an absurd thing to say.

And if people simpy don't like what's published and want changes?

You read stories, you don't change stories.

As much as I'd want to write Batman being as fast as Flash, that would only remain in my fan-fiction. Same as your fit here about WW.

If secret collusion means open sexism in WW's history and terrible writing to offer the rest of the JL as tribute for Batman's and Supes sake is that probably a paranoia i share with him...

Wonder Woman's entire history is an example of rampant sexism.

It's why she's part of the trinity, at the expense of Hal and Flash, who are easily the more successful characters in comic books, both in terms of recognizable stories, villains and general importance within DC history.

Oh wait...

Where were all these amazing things against Doomsday in the movie, Doomsday in the comics, Supes in the DCEU as she was basically a statue to him and Supes in several comics(League for One as prime example where they even basically dissed the rest of the JL too)?

They were all in the movies. Superman was a brute against Doomsday, while Wonder Woman was a warrior. Her sword is the one who cut his hand, remember?

Superman is stronger and faster. That doesn't mean that Wonder Woman being more skilled, and with better weapons, don't exist.

Funny i just face palm about Jason, Super Mary Sue, Bat-God, most of the DCEU and DC's history with Wonder Woman...

Face palming is invented by the patriarchy.

Stay woke.

And how exactly has this: She's a badass warrior, with OP weapons, tactical ability, fighting ability second to none and physical ability second ONLY to Superman
no effect on him, is that some kind of toon-force style comic logic?

All of those were shown when she outperformed the entire Justice League, minus Superman, against him.

And even then, Superman had to go all-out and for the kill, on his deathbed.

How often does that happen in comparison and when outwrestled Batman Doomsday like he outspelled Circe.

My first problem in this thread was Supes should be Super Mary Sue and more powerful than the rest of the JL together, but i have also a big problem if someone uses the barely ever respected lip-service by DC as excuse why WW can't be as strong as Supes. Especially with another excuse like history.

Superman isn't more powerful than the entire Justice League put together. He is just the strongest, while Flash is the fastest, while Wonder Woman is the best fighter, while Batman is the best tactician, while Hal is the best energy-manipulator.

How do you not get that if Wonder Woman gets to be the strongest, he doesn't have anything.

How is 'going with history' an excuse? What am I supposed to go by, your 'the patriarchy is keeping Wonder Woman down!!' delusions?

Jesus.

[Incognito]

I am surprised that this thread is still going?

Oddly she is spooked to be "stronger than Hercules and swifter than Mercury", and yet Capt. Marvel/Shazam has the strength and speed OF These gods and is shown as Clark's equal.

I always see WW's gifts as being similar to Shazam by gaining a portion of the gods powers, and not being equal to the gods' specific abilities, like for example, she is very fast but not fast as or faster than Hermes. Find it odd that the epipthet defines her than being superior than the male gods but she is an equal to the female gods but she is not shown (from my knowledge) as having the same level of attributes as them, so I see her gifts (strength, speed, wisdom) as being a portion (small gifts) from the Greek Gods.


Doomsday is Superman's villain and Superman is the main protagonist of the film, so he would be the one to defeat Doomsday (main villain). Wonder Woman lasted longer than the other members of the Justice League, and both she and The Flash managed to get some hits on Doomsday, so I don't see the reason why some people need to make a fuss about Wonder Woman's portrayal in the film.

Superman isn't more powerful than the entire Justice League put together. He is just the strongest, while Flash is the fastest, while Wonder Woman is the best fighter, while Batman is the best tactician, while Hal is the best energy-manipulator.

How do you not get that if Wonder Woman gets to be the strongest, he doesn't have anything.

How is 'going with history' an excuse? What am I supposed to go by, your 'the patriarchy is keeping Wonder Woman down!!' delusions?

Jesus.

I agree that Superman isn't more powerful than the JL as well as Wonder Woman and Flash. They all got their strengths and weakness.

I like WW but if she is stronger than or as Superman then Superman is pretty much meaningless in his role as a member of the JL, plus she has no specific weakness and she is the best fighter in the DCU and an arsenal of magical items, she would be more OP than Superman. Superman at least has kryptonite and red sun radiation to turn against him which makes him not too OP in the DCU as there is a chance that you can defeat him but Wonder Woman has no detailed weaknesses. IMO, In terms of mary sues, I think with Wonder Woman's abilities in terms of both powers and skills as well as having no specific weakness she probably the closest one of being a Mary Sue especially if they made her as strong or stronger than Superman.

[Incognito]

I am surprised that this thread is still going?

Oddly she is spooked to be "stronger than Hercules and swifter than Mercury", and yet Capt. Marvel/Shazam has the strength and speed OF These gods and is shown as Clark's equal.

I always see WW's gifts as being similar to Shazam by gaining a portion of the gods powers, and not being equal to the gods' specific abilities, like for example, she is very fast but not fast as or faster than Hermes. Find it odd that the epipthet defines her than being superior than the male gods but she is an equal to the female gods but she is not shown (from my knowledge) as having the same level of attributes as them, so I see her gifts (strength, speed, wisdom) as being a portion (small gifts) from the Greek Gods.


Doomsday is Superman's villain and Superman is the main protagonist of the film, so he would be the one to defeat Doomsday (main villain). Wonder Woman lasted longer than the other members of the Justice League, and both she and The Flash managed to get some hits on Doomsday, so I don't see the reason why some people need to make a fuss about Wonder Woman's portrayal in the film.

Superman isn't more powerful than the entire Justice League put together. He is just the strongest, while Flash is the fastest, while Wonder Woman is the best fighter, while Batman is the best tactician, while Hal is the best energy-manipulator.

How do you not get that if Wonder Woman gets to be the strongest, he doesn't have anything.

How is 'going with history' an excuse? What am I supposed to go by, your 'the patriarchy is keeping Wonder Woman down!!' delusions?

Jesus.

I agree that Superman isn't more powerful than the JL as well as Wonder Woman and Flash. They all got their strengths and weakness.

I like WW but if she is stronger than or as Superman then Superman is pretty much meaningless in his role as a member of the JL, plus she has no specific weakness and she is the best fighter in the DCU and an arsenal of magical items, she would be more OP than Superman. Superman at least has kryptonite and red sun radiation to turn against him which makes him not too OP in the DCU as there is a chance that you can defeat him but Wonder Woman has no detailed weaknesses. IMO, In terms of mary sues, I think with Wonder Woman's abilities in terms of both powers and skills as well as having no specific weakness she probably the closest one of being a Mary Sue especially if they made her as strong or stronger than Superman.

[Shadowedeyes]

Meh, better fighter is meaningless buzzwords. 95% she's just punching the bad guy anyway, same as Superman. Heck, her fight against Doomsday is literally pretty much that and the sword breaking.

[GodofBoredom]

I agree that Superman isn't more powerful than the JL as well as Wonder Woman and Flash. They all got their strengths and weakness.

I like WW but if she is stronger than or as Superman then Superman is pretty much meaningless in his role as a member of the JL, plus she has no specific weakness and she is the best fighter in the DCU and an arsenal of magical items, she would be more OP than Superman. Superman at least has kryptonite and red sun radiation to turn against him which makes him not too OP in the DCU as there is a chance that you can defeat him but Wonder Woman has no detailed weaknesses. IMO, In terms of mary sues, I think with Wonder Woman's abilities in terms of both powers and skills as well as having no specific weakness she probably the closest one of being a Mary Sue especially if they made her as strong or stronger than Superman.

Exactly.

In fact, Batman made the same point, when all of the Justice League has a weakness to stop them...except Wonder Woman:

[Rightoya]

That's a pretty good attempt at deflection, but answer the question, which is: Do you dispute that Wonder Woman being physically equal to Superman, but on top of that having the lasso, bracers, shield and no weakness makes him redundant?

Yeah i dispute that, at least as long as all these things are barely ever shown as making up for Supes physical advantages.

She'd be literally everything he is, but better.

You would have a point there, if we wouldn't both know that she is usually portrayed as lesser instead of equal due to her own advantages.

Unless you think Heat vision/Freeze breath > lasso, bracelets, sword, fighting skills. Hmmmm...

I don't think that, but many writers of DC apparently do.

Are you being sarcastic?

It's been clearly shown in Superman/Wonder Woman by Charles Soule.
It's been clearly shown in the Trinity arc, when they're all depowered, and very directly stated.
It's been clearly shown in Justice League.
Hell, you can really read anything, or watch anything, and Wonder Woman is so much more skilled than Superman, that she makes him look like a hobo.

How often was it shown as relevant for a not depowered WW again, especially as just halfway as relevant as physical stats and how often in her main Rebirth run?

He is a brawler, she is a martial artist and tactician.

Man, do you even read the character you're arguing for?

Yeah i do and what i see most of the time is clearly not someone who makes up for physical disadvantages by being skilled and tactical, are you honestly claiming you see that most of the time?

Can you reformulate that sentence, because it makes no sense in comparison to what I said.

How often gets her being magical shown as relevant, how could you not understand that question?

If you're asking how many times Captain Marvel's magic is played up against Superman, the answer is very often.

You can look at the tv animated film Superman/Batman: Public Enemies where it's explicitly stated.
You can look at the comic, of the same arc, where it's explicitly stated.
You can look at tv animated film Superman/Captain Marvel vs Black Adam, where it's explicitly stated.
You can look at the Eclipso arc, Lightning Strikes Twice, where it's explicitly stated.
You can look at Kingdom Come, only the most famous Superman/Captain Marvel story, where it's explicitly stated.

You can look at.....I could go on, and on, and on.

Cool and now the same for Wonder Woman plz?

Do you even comics, bro?

In the comics i read is it often very easy to forget that WW is even magical...

Was it a problem when Ares shatttered it?

What, are you talking about the fake sword in the WW DCEU movie?

Or Katana shattered it?

Uhm yeah that was a problem, why would you even think i would say it was not?
But the soultaker shattering WW's sword from the side is still not as bad as it doing nothing to Doomsdays freaking fist.

The sword did just fine against Darkseid, which she blinded.

And just shattered against Doomsday in the animated movie this thread is about. Also was it your own goddamn argument that her OP sword allegedly cuts through anything...

The bracelets have deflected Darkseid's omega beams.

Yeah great and how often do i need to ask how often happen these things, as opposed to Superman getting portrayed as physically stronger?

By comparison, Superman was one-shotted by them.

Come again?

You used this: "That is a weakness that depends on the writer."
as argument, so plz tell me how many writers showed them rly as effective?

That is a weakness that depends on the writer. It's only recently that it's been put an emphasis on.

Good joke, any weakness depends on the writer and there is a good reason why almost anyone knows about WW's bullets/piercing weakness.

Kryptonite, red sun and magic are under every writer.

Yeah no, especially kryptonite and magic fluctuates like crazy in terms of effects depending on the writer.

I don't think you were able to follow the argument here.

Or maybe i just think your argument was complete nonsense.

Just because Batman, or Superman, or Wonder Woman can beat the Justice League, does not make the league irrelevant. John Stewart has beaten the whole Justice League (see Green Lantern Rebirth, hopefully you've read that!), Hal Jordan has, too. Guess what? Yeah..

Yeah sure, we aren't talking about something that usually happens far more often with Batman and Supes and of course it somehow doesn't let the league look irrelevant...
Are you freaking kidding me?

(League of One, have you read that at least? or we're a negative there, too?)

No i literally wrote about it in the post you are answering here just for the fun of it...
But let's look at what actually happened with WW and Supes there:



Oh hmmm that doesn't look like someone actually defeated the whole JL, except you don't consider Supes as part of the JL...

Wonder Woman taking Superman's niche (physical ability), and then adding to that her lasso, sword and bracelets, as well as her fighting skill, only makes him irrelevant.

Aha and WW actually being comparable with him due to her advantages would too?

Oh and Billy and even Martian Manhunter make Supes also always irrelevant if they are portrayed like that?

That's not Superman talking. Dude, read the comics. Seriously. It's boring having to correct you.

How about you just stop with that nonsense then?
Or are you honestly trying to tell me that was just a wild guess of Crucifer?

I could now post other times where it was stated, but that seems redundant considering your next part.

[QUOTE=GodofBoredom;3834087]Do you want me to post dozens of scans of Superman being called the most powerful being on Earth, many times with Wonder Woman standing right next to him?

For what reason specifically, to prove that nothing in DC is actually consistent and that these writers have zero clue what most powerful being on earth would actually mean?

History is the only valid canon. So yes, character portrayals being informed by history is, actually, the only way to go.

So they should all just go back to the Golden Age then, how is history canon for modern comics plz?

I'm....terribly sorry, but I can't accept fan-fiction.

Good for you and Wonder Woman fans apparently can't accept Superfan service(insert a certain british slur here that describes it much better), which is the reason why they complain about it in this thread and will probably not stop just cause you personally don't see a problem with that...

Continuation in the next post