A street-level team title

[The Darknight Detective]

Heck, not even scientific polling is likely to that accurate. People are generally rather poor at articulating what they want or prefer, and you're likely to run into all sorts of bias as well.

Very true, but it still beats an Internet poll by a country mile.

As for Rebirth, your theory might be one part of it, but only part. If New 52 were selling like hotcakes, I doubt they'd look at Rebirth, no matter how much old fen were grousing. Sales numbers was likely the main thing. Another thing might have been the stories they received and communication with their writers. It also seems possible that Rebirth was part of the general plan of New 52, but I wouldn't swear to that. It might also be a case of creative stagnation.

Exactly. When sale numbers hit a certain level, then a change may be coming. Does anybody really think COIE would have occurred had DC sales figures had been flourishing? The number of comic books sold or not sold is always the primary factor.

[Trey Strain]

Yeah, but I doubt anything said here hasn't been thought about by management long, long before.

DC has publicly admitted getting one idea off a message board. It was making Hal Jordan the Spectre. That was a bad idea and they shouldn't have listened to it, but they did.

Green Lantern: Rebirth was what exactly HEAT wanted, but I think that was about the last time Johns listened to anyone.

BTW, in hindsight, Geoff's fans suddenly flooding in and taking over the DC Green Lantern board when Green Lantern: Rebirth was announced, and telling the HEAT guys and everyone else to shut up because a new sheriff was in town, was hilarious. They had no idea...

[kjn]

They don't view the message boards as polls because the boards are too skewed away from casual customers. The customers who interest them the most are the casual ones, because growth in a market occurs at the margins.

But they read the boards, and if they see what they think are good ideas, they use them. That's what you would do too.

Neither of your assertions there are necessarily correct.

First off, given the market has become to be structured, for a long while both DC and Marvel has been focused in practice on their "safe" market of regular returning buyers. The focus on variant covers, longer story arcs, and crossovers all point in that direction. Due to the way the US mass market distribution system has collapsed, they also lost a lot of access to the casual market, and it's probably only now with the rise of digital comics distribution that that market might be returning.

Also, given the way that discussion has been going among sf and fantasy authors, comics writers and even more editors are going to be real careful about reading here, because of the threat of lawsuits over plagiarisation; even more of creating evidence that they read here. Even if such suits are likely to be unfounded (as many pro authors I know say, ideas are cheap and plentiful, execution is hard and what makes a good story) and then will go nowhere, they are likely to cost money, cause a huge hassle, and be a PR headache. Film creation is really bad here, due to the amount of money involved: just see what happened to Shape of Water after it was released.

[Trey Strain]

Neither of your assertions there are necessarily correct.

First off, given the market has become to be structured, for a long while both DC and Marvel has been focused in practice on their "safe" market of regular returning buyers. The focus on variant covers, longer story arcs, and crossovers all point in that direction. Due to the way the US mass market distribution system has collapsed, they also lost a lot of access to the casual market, and it's probably only now with the rise of digital comics distribution that that market might be returning.

Also, given the way that discussion has been going among sf and fantasy authors, comics writers and even more editors are going to be real careful about reading here, because of the threat of lawsuits over plagiarisation; even more of creating evidence that they read here. Even if such suits are likely to be unfounded (as many pro authors I know say, ideas are cheap and plentiful, execution is hard and what makes a good story) and then will go nowhere, they are likely to cost money, cause a huge hassle, and be a PR headache. Film creation is really bad here, due to the amount of money involved: just see what happened to Shape of Water after it was released.

The expansion into Walmart is a very clever attempt to reach more casual readers.

They can't take a story that someone has written, of course. But if someone says he'd like to see a teamup title starring Kyle Rayner and Wally West, then they can do that.

[kjn]

The expansion into Walmart is a very clever attempt to reach more casual readers.

They can't take a story that someone has written, of course. But if someone says he'd like to see a teamup title starring Kyle Rayner and Wally West, then they can do that.

Yes, the Walmart deal is clearly an attempt to reach new readers. But why now? Why not five or ten years ago, or even earlier? To me, the Walmart deal is likely due to a change of focus, or at least an indication of one, within DC.

As for you second, yeah, simple teamups are likely not problematic. But there have been rather detailed discussions eg on the Wonder Woman forum on the way to deal with Diana's background, the Amazons, and Themyscira. I could see both editors and writers being real careful of reading such stuff. Instead, I imagine they are more focused on reactions to what they've created, just like directors or actors reading reviews. (Some do, some don't.) At the same time, the production pipeline is rather long, and contracts stretches even longer, as witnessed by the way the Jason storyline lurched along no matter how much complaints there were over on the Wonder Woman forum.

[Trey Strain]

Yes, the Walmart deal is clearly an attempt to reach new readers. But why now? Why not five or ten years ago, or even earlier? To me, the Walmart deal is likely due to a change of focus, or at least an indication of one, within DC.

Most likely, someone at DC just thought of it recently. Ideas happen when they happen.

As for you second, yeah, simple teamups are likely not problematic. But there have been rather detailed discussions eg on the Wonder Woman forum on the way to deal with Diana's background, the Amazons, and Themyscira. I could see both editors and writers being real careful of reading such stuff. Instead, I imagine they are more focused on reactions to what they've created, just like directors or actors reading reviews. (Some do, some don't.) At the same time, the production pipeline is rather long, and contracts stretches even longer, as witnessed by the way the Jason storyline lurched along no matter how much complaints there were over on the Wonder Woman forum.

There are other suggestions besides teams and teamups that are fine for them to take. For example, I suggested that Green Lantern be rebooted, with the four Earth Lanterns getting their rings at once and Sinestro being Abin Sur's killer. That's along the lines of making Hal the Spectre.

A lot of plots get reused on television, pretty shamelessly. As a fan of old Westerns, I've noticed that a story Gene Roddenberry wrote for Have Gun Will Travel called "Marshal of Sweetwater" got reused years later on The Big Valley as "Night in a Small Town" and then again as "The Tarnished Badge" on Gunsmoke, each time with very minimal changes. I don't recommend anyone do that though.

[The Darknight Detective]

Most likely, someone at DC just thought of it recently. Ideas happen when they happen.



There are other suggestions besides teams and teamups that are fine for them to take. For example, I suggested that Green Lantern be rebooted, with the four Earth Lanterns getting their rings at once and Sinestro being Abin Sur's killer. That's along the lines of making Hal the Spectre.

A lot of plots get reused on television, pretty shamelessly. As a fan of old Westerns, I've noticed that a story Gene Roddenberry wrote for Have Gun Will Travel called "Marshal of Sweetwater" got reused years later on The Big Valley as "Night in a Small Town" and then again as "The Tarnished Badge" on Gunsmoke, each time with very minimal changes. I don't recommend anyone do that though.

WB television shows were known for recycling some of the plots from their famous films for particular episodes, while Wagon Train had a few episodes based on Dickens novels.

[Trey Strain]

WB television shows were known for recycling some of the plots from their famous films for particular episodes, while Wagon Train had a few episodes based on Dickens novels.

Yes they did! When I saw the episode of Cheyenne called The Argonauts that ripped off Treasure of the Sierra Madre, I laughed out loud. I hope they paid B. Traven for that because he was still alive.

A television plot that got recycled started out in Cheyenne, in which Cheyenne was convicted of trumped-up charges and sentenced to hard labor in a silver mine. It was remade on Bonanza as Kingdom of Fear, and again on Gunsmoke as Hard Labor. To my knowledge, although Gunsmoke remade some of its own episodes, it never ripped off a plot from another show until its last season, when it stole three of them. After 20 years, they were just out of ideas.

Something else the WB shows from that era did -- they used the same identical gunshot sound effect every time a gun fired!

[The Darknight Detective]

Yes they did! When I saw the episode of Cheyenne called The Argonauts that ripped off Treasure of the Sierra Madre, I laughed out loud. I hope they paid B. Traven for that because he was still alive.

A television plot that got recycled started out in Cheyenne, in which Cheyenne was convicted of trumped-up charges and sentenced to hard labor in a silver mine. It was remade on Bonanza as Kingdom of Fear, and again on Gunsmoke as Hard Labor. To my knowledge, although Gunsmoke remade some of its own episodes, it never ripped off a plot from another show until its last season, when it stole three of them. After 20 years, they were just out of ideas.

The silver mine plot also popped up on Wanted: Dead or Alive. As for Gunsmoke, I wonder if they ever ripped off a story from the radio show starring William Conrad.

Something else the WB shows from that era did -- they used the same identical gunshot sound effect every time a gun fired!

Not to mention the famous "Wilhelm scream" that originally appeared in an old Guy Madison western from WB.

[Trey Strain]

Not to mention the famous "Wilhelm scream" that originally appeared in an old Guy Madison western from WB.

Almost all the episodes of Gunsmoke's first six seasons were adapted from the Gunsmoke radio series. It was OK for them to do that because television is a different medium and most viewers hadn't heard the radio episodes. As a matter of fact, MeTV started showing those half-hour episodes of Gunsmoke today. They're well worth watching or recording.

Many of Dragnet's early episodes were adapted from the Dragnet radio series.

[The Darknight Detective]

Almost all the episodes of Gunsmoke's first six seasons were adapted from the Gunsmoke radio series. It was OK for them to do that because television is a different medium and most viewers hadn't heard the radio episodes. As a matter of fact, MeTV started showing those half-hour episodes of Gunsmoke today. They're well worth watching or recording.

Many of Dragnet's early episodes were adapted from the Dragnet radio series.

I have seen many of the TV episodes from both shows and have listened to a few of the radio program episodes.

[Trey Strain]

I have seen many of the TV episodes from both shows and have listened to a few of the radio program episodes.

You probably won't go wrong watching a Gunsmoke episode from the first nine and a half seasons, when Norman Macdonnell was producing and John Meston and Kathleen Hite were writing. There were very few clunkers. Right now MeTV is showing Seasons 1-6 and INSP is showing Seasons 7-11.

I haven't watched nearly as many Dragnet episodes, but of those I've seen, the early ones have impressed me the most.

[Carabas]

WB television shows were known for recycling some of the plots from their famous films for particular episodes, while Wagon Train had a few episodes based on Dickens novels.

I don't feel this is a WB-specific thing.

Not to mention the famous "Wilhelm scream" that originally appeared in an old Guy Madison western from WB.

The Scream is everywhere, from Aladdin to Toy Story to Lord Of The Rings to practically every Lucasfilm movie ever.

[kjn]

Now we are way-off-topic, but plot re-use is likely as old as story-telling. Two tribes met, and they swapped stories. Some could be re-used as is, but some stories could have its setting and characters changed and thus be improved in the new environment. The stories of the rightful king and the usurper brother go back to Osiris and Set of Egyptian mythology. The love triangle with shaken loyalties you can find with Arthur, Guinivere, and Lancelot. The small group betrayed and stranded behind enemy lines go back to Anabasis (except that group wasn't that small).

Right now, I feel that our current culture is obsessed with originality, and it shows all over pop culture. But there are very few truly original ideas that appear every year, and originality is to me no substitute for good story-telling. There is nothing wrong in taking a good plot, shave off the details, substitute your own, and mixing a bit.

[Trey Strain]

Now we are way-off-topic, but plot re-use is likely as old as story-telling. Two tribes met, and they swapped stories. Some could be re-used as is, but some stories could have its setting and characters changed and thus be improved in the new environment. The stories of the rightful king and the usurper brother go back to Osiris and Set of Egyptian mythology. The love triangle with shaken loyalties you can find with Arthur, Guinivere, and Lancelot. The small group betrayed and stranded behind enemy lines go back to Anabasis (except that group wasn't that small).

Right now, I feel that our current culture is obsessed with originality, and it shows all over pop culture. But there are very few truly original ideas that appear every year, and originality is to me no substitute for good story-telling. There is nothing wrong in taking a good plot, shave off the details, substitute your own, and mixing a bit.

A smart writer will take small pieces of what he likes from other stories and put him into his story. But he'll make them small enough and change them enough so that nobody could ever figure out where they came from. Smart composers do this too. That's the difference between research and plagiarism.

I've mentioned two episodes from Gunsmoke's last season that were lifted from other shows. The third one was Thirty and Month and Found, which was taken from an episode of the series The Outlaws called Thirty a Month. Besides the title, the other thing that was too obviously reused from the story in The Outlaws was the opening scene, which was almost identical.

Both stories were about law-abiding co-workers who hit on hard times and gave in to the temptation to commit robberies, with tragic results. The writer changed the story enough that if he hadn't made the title and the opening scene so similar, nobody ever would have caught on to what he did.