Fantastic Four and Archnemeses

[Silvermoth]

Hi everyone,

So I’ve been thinking about the fantastic four and their archnemeses lately. Obviously doom is the team’s archnemesis. I kind of like the idea of each member having their own nemesis though similar to how cyclops has Vulcan, wolverine sabretooth, storm Callisto etc.

Ok so Reed and the mad thinker, I’ve always liked because I think if reed ever turned evil that’s who he would be. Reed symbolises all that’s good about science and the mad thinker represents its potential crueler side. Obviously doom is also his archnemesis.

Susan, I remember Medusa was kind of set up as Sue’s nemesis with the first frightful four. I don’t think that’s really applicable anymore though because you couldn’t call Medusa a criminal anymore.

No idea with Johnny and the thing. What do you think?

[Crimz]

While Doom is a threat to the entire team his motivation is revolved around Reed.

So Reed has Doom, Mad Thinker, and Wizard (who was Johnny's when first created but that quickly changed), and maybe Namor whenever they're fighting over Sue.

The others don't really have any which is a shame.

[Kaijudo]

If the Thing had anyone, it'd probably be the Hulk.

[The Overlord]

While Doom is a threat to the entire team his motivation is revolved around Reed.

So Reed has Doom, Mad Thinker, and Wizard (who was Johnny's when first created but that quickly changed), and maybe Namor whenever they're fighting over Sue.

The others don't really have any which is a shame.

They should really change that, outside of Doom a lot of FF villains have the barest of characterization.

Why should care about Wizard when he is a poor man's Dr. Doom who has a very similar motive for hating Reed Richards as Doom does, expect not as good because his back story is far less developed, give him a rivalry with another FF member and give him some better characterization.

A lot of villains frankly need better characterization, Red Ghost being an old Cold War propaganda character in 2018 makes him seem like a lame villain.

The Human Torch had several, including The Wizard and Pastepot Pete.

The Hulk has been suggested as The Thing's nemesis, and that seems reasonable, but Thundra is another strong possibility. Of course, his most bitter personal enemy has to be The Yancy Street Gang.

If The Invisible Woman has a personal enemy, it should be Reed who has been such a terrible husband and father.

How is Wizard or Trapster interesting foils for Human Torch at this point?

I think in that conflict, Richards represents creativity and the human spirit, and Thinker represents cold calculation. Thinker can absolutely predict and prep around everything purely physical, everything that can be understood mathematically. Yet the FF win anyway because they can be creative, and thematically because they have human souls that transcend the purely scientific.

Also, I think many, including some writers, misunderstand the Doom/Fantastic Four conflict. It's not Doom vs Reed. It's Doom and his Doombots vs Reed and his family. It's about having people who love each other versus slaves under the control of one man. Overfocusing on Reed detracts from that.

I think I prefer Mad Thinker has the morally ambiguous trickster mentor he was in New Warriors, rather then one note mad scientist he is the FF comics.

[Marvel Forever]

Sue badly needs a worthy female foe to be her nemesis. Medusa was great as an evil rival back in the 1960's, but a more powerful female foe is needed now to battle Sue.

[Crimz]

They should really change that, outside of Doom a lot of FF villains have the barest of characterization.

Why should care about Wizard when he is a poor man's Dr. Doom who has a very similar motive for hating Reed Richards as Doom does, expect not as good because his back story is far less developed, give him a rivalry with another FF member and give him some better characterization.

A lot of villains frankly need better characterization, Red Ghost being an old Cold War propaganda character in 2018 makes him seem like a lame villain.



How is Wizard or Trapster interesting foils for Human Torch at this point?



I think I prefer Mad Thinker has the morally ambiguous trickster mentor he was in New Warriors, rather then one note mad scientist he is the FF comics.

Yeah a lot of villains are in need of development or retiring. Like Mole Man, I just don't see him as a threat to the FF anymore and he should be used by another hero.
I think part of the problem is the overuse of Dr Doom, he's the villain that most runs eventually fall back on as it's easier to do than trying to make other ones compelling too. That's why I hope Slott's run rarely uses Doom and focuses on less developed and new villains. Doom can face other heroes in the MU for a while.

Sue badly needs a worthy female foe to be her nemesis. Medusa was great as an evil rival back in the 1960's, but a more powerful female foe is needed now to battle Sue.

They don't have to be a woman to a nemesis for Sue. They can be a male villain, and that goes for the other members too. Like this new villain called the Griever, she could end up being Johnny's or Ben's nemesis.

[Silvermoth]

Double post

[Silvermoth]

If the Thing had anyone, it'd probably be the Hulk.

See with the frightful four it was sandman which I think is really intriguing. Not just rock versus sand and erosion but the idea of two working class tough guys, one who got to move up and the other who couldn’t. Plus spidey has enough rogues,

Is this only for the 4 main, or can replacement members also have their name and nemesis out there as well?

Of course, please suggest whoever you want! I can get started if you want...

She hulk - Titania
Black Panther- Killmonger

Sue badly needs a worthy female foe to be her nemesis. Medusa was great as an evil rival back in the 1960's, but a more powerful female foe is needed now to battle Sue.

I would love that. I think marvel should have more women heroes and villains. I guess in terms of an archnemesis it’s a question of what part of her personality should be the focus of her villain? Her as a mum? Her as the First Lady of marvel? Her as something else.

You know who would be a really interesting foil for Susan? Black Swan

[The Overlord]

Yeah a lot of villains are in need of development or retiring. Like Mole Man, I just don't see him as a threat to the FF anymore and he should be used by another hero.
I think part of the problem is the overuse of Dr Doom, he's the villain that most runs eventually fall back on as it's easier to do than trying to make other ones compelling too. That's why I hope Slott's run rarely uses Doom and focuses on less developed and new villains. Doom can face other heroes in the MU for a while.

I would agree with that, there was actually a fairly recent Daredevil story that developed the Mole Man's back story and gives him a sad moment, but it likely will never be mentioned again.

Fro while there was a story where Wizard had a mental break down, with him talking about God all the time, that was kinda interesting, but it didn't go anywhere and then ended in some mini series in unspectacular fashion and for what, to tell the same ''Wizard creates a Frightful Four group to oppose the FF'' story we have seen 500 times already.

Red Ghost is a character you take in a million directions, you make him some scum bag who works for the Russian government or the Russian mafia or you can make him a well intentioned extremist who believes he is fighting for the working class. Anything is better then the Cold War cliche he is now.

There are ton of interesting thinks you can do with Mad Thinker.

There was even a short story from the 90s (non cannon clearly) where Trapster tried to reform, he failed obviously, but it gave the character a moment of humanity, rather then the one note cartoon bad guy he is often in the comics.

But you have to take these characters out their boxes, not only should these characters have more developed rivalries with the heroes and not just the same old stale rivalry with Reed, but their characters more developed so we care more about it. Give FF members reasons to hate some of these villains or find them creepy or pitiable or anything other then seeing them as obstacle to be removed. Maybe have the FF members disagree as whether a villain is pitiable or not or have one FF member hate a villain far more then the other members do. If the writers want to keep on using these characters, do something different with them and make it stick, rather then falling back into the same cliches from the 60s.

[Michael Watkins]

They should really change that, outside of Doom a lot of FF villains have the barest of characterization.

Why should care about Wizard when he is a poor man's Dr. Doom who has a very similar motive for hating Reed Richards as Doom does, expect not as good because his back story is far less developed, give him a rivalry with another FF member and give him some better.

I don't care about doom. His motivations for pestering the four are extremely weak. He only exists as a link to the lee/Kirby days. He benefits from plot armor because of the child-like nostalgia of writers. Anyways, Bentley is the anti-Reed Richards. That's why he has attempted to start a family and insists upon a four member team. His relationship with Pete is a twisted version of Reed's friendship with Ben. He even has one daughter and one "son." The Wizard has levels. But you actually have to do the reading.

[The Overlord]

I don't care about doom. His motivations for pestering the four are extremely weak. He only exists as a link to the lee/Kirby days. He benefits from plot armor because of the child-like nostalgia of writers. Anyways, Bentley is the anti-Reed Richards. That's why he has attempted to start a family and insists upon a four member team. His relationship with Pete is a twisted version of Reed's friendship with Ben. He even has one daughter and one "son." The Wizard has levels. But you actually have to do the reading.

Doom is a well regarded as a great villain for a reason, he has a sense of honor and an actual back story. He grew back up in a dictatorship, his mother sold her soul to a demon and got burned at the stake, his father was killed by the Latverian dictatorship, his face got ruined in an explosion while trying to contact his mother in Hell. There is no way Doom would have grown to be a normal person.

What's Wizard's motive for being a super villain in the first place, it seems like he had a comfortable life style before becoming a villain and had no real reason to become a villain. He ruined his own life, for no reason. That is what is missing with the character, he has no motive beyond being a Dr. Doom wannabe who is jealous of Reed and would have been more dangerous if he kept his villainy a secret and managed to still a respectable citizen and a powerful corporate mogul. He could have been the Marvel version of Lex Luthor instead of C-list public villain with not many accomplishments to his name and that mental breakdown story went no where.

[Iron Maiden]

Doom is a well regarded as a great villain for a reason, he has a sense of honor and an actual back story. He grew back up in a dictatorship, his mother sold her soul to a demon and got burned at the stake, his father was killed by the Latverian dictatorship, his face got ruined in an explosion while trying to contact his mother in Hell. There is no way Doom would have grown to be a normal person.

Just a correction. There were some inconsistencies in the comics about his mother's death. Astonishing Tales #8 just says she died unconfessed and was damned to Hell. In Triumph and Torment, we get a more full version of the story where Cynthia is killed by a soldier of the king using a sword. There was some discussion in the past (can't recall where or what article) about this being symbolic for rape. Books of Doom mentions that Victor recalls that the soldiers "beat us and stole our earnings when they could. And had done worse to our women". I think it was apt that Warren Ellis once described Doom as being morally damaged.

What's Wizard's motive for being a super villain in the first place, it seems like he had a comfortable life style before becoming a villain and had no real reason to become a villain. He ruined his own life, for no reason. That is what is missing with the character, he has no motive beyond being a Dr. Doom wannabe who is jealous of Reed and would have been more dangerous if he kept his villainy a secret and managed to still a respectable citizen and a powerful corporate mogul. He could have been the Marvel version of Lex Luthor instead of C-list public villain with not many accomplishments to his name and that mental breakdown story went no where.

I recall the earliest appearance of the Wizard comes in the Torch's solo series in Strange Tales. He had become wealthy by selling his inventions and for making personal appearances. He was sort of a minor celebrity I suppose and then he became bored. This was when he made his first attack on the Human Torch in Strange Tales #101. He had it all so to speak and was an an adult when he made a choice to commit crimes while impersonating Johnny so that he could destroy his reputation as a hero.

[Michael Watkins]

Doom is a well regarded as a great villain for a reason

Because he is marketed as such. The company told you to consider him as the #1 villain.

he has a sense of honor and an actual back story.

His backstory is boring and hard to translate to live-action. His sense of honor is fake; based entirely on convenience. He tried to kill Scott Lang when his back was turned because he had been humiliated. And he most certainly would not have put that in the official history records. All that motivates Doom is the desire to prove himself better than others. He shares this motivation with Otto Octavius and Helmut Zemo. The latter two are more interesting.

What's Wizard's motive for being a super villain in the first place, it seems like he had a comfortable life style before becoming a villain and had no real reason to become a villain. He ruined his own life, for no reason. That is what is missing with the character, he has no motive beyond being a Dr. Doom wannabe who is jealous of Reed and would have been more dangerous if he kept his villainy a secret and managed to still a respectable citizen and a powerful corporate mogul. He could have been the Marvel version of Lex Luthor instead of C-list public villain with not many accomplishments to his name and that mental breakdown story went no where.

Being a respectable citizen was Kingpin's schtick. It would make the Wizard more vulnerable and tie his hands when it came to actual villainy. He's doing just fine as a low level mastermind. I have never heard anyone say, "oh no. Not another Wizard appearance." A.I.M recruited him as a leader. So his, in universe, cred is pretty strong. Wake me up when doom isn't taking stark's sloppy seconds.

[MichaelC]

Ok so Reed and the mad thinker, I’ve always liked because I think if reed ever turned evil that’s who he would be. Reed symbolises all that’s good about science and the mad thinker represents its potential crueler side. Obviously doom is also his archnemesis.

I think in that conflict, Richards represents creativity and the human spirit, and Thinker represents cold calculation. Thinker can absolutely predict and prep around everything purely physical, everything that can be understood mathematically. Yet the FF win anyway because they can be creative, and thematically because they have human souls that transcend the purely scientific.

Also, I think many, including some writers, misunderstand the Doom/Fantastic Four conflict. It's not Doom vs Reed. It's Doom and his Doombots vs Reed and his family. It's about having people who love each other versus slaves under the control of one man. Overfocusing on Reed detracts from that.

[DrNewGod]

The Human Torch had several, including The Wizard and Pastepot Pete.

The Hulk has been suggested as The Thing's nemesis, and that seems reasonable, but Thundra is another strong possibility. Of course, his most bitter personal enemy has to be The Yancy Street Gang.

If The Invisible Woman has a personal enemy, it should be Reed who has been such a terrible husband and father.