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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Yeah a lot of villains are in need of development or retiring. Like Mole Man, I just don't see him as a threat to the FF anymore and he should be used by another hero.
    I think part of the problem is the overuse of Dr Doom, he's the villain that most runs eventually fall back on as it's easier to do than trying to make other ones compelling too. That's why I hope Slott's run rarely uses Doom and focuses on less developed and new villains. Doom can face other heroes in the MU for a while.
    I would agree with that, there was actually a fairly recent Daredevil story that developed the Mole Man's back story and gives him a sad moment, but it likely will never be mentioned again.

    Fro while there was a story where Wizard had a mental break down, with him talking about God all the time, that was kinda interesting, but it didn't go anywhere and then ended in some mini series in unspectacular fashion and for what, to tell the same ''Wizard creates a Frightful Four group to oppose the FF'' story we have seen 500 times already.

    Red Ghost is a character you take in a million directions, you make him some scum bag who works for the Russian government or the Russian mafia or you can make him a well intentioned extremist who believes he is fighting for the working class. Anything is better then the Cold War cliche he is now.

    There are ton of interesting thinks you can do with Mad Thinker.

    There was even a short story from the 90s (non cannon clearly) where Trapster tried to reform, he failed obviously, but it gave the character a moment of humanity, rather then the one note cartoon bad guy he is often in the comics.

    But you have to take these characters out their boxes, not only should these characters have more developed rivalries with the heroes and not just the same old stale rivalry with Reed, but their characters more developed so we care more about it. Give FF members reasons to hate some of these villains or find them creepy or pitiable or anything other then seeing them as obstacle to be removed. Maybe have the FF members disagree as whether a villain is pitiable or not or have one FF member hate a villain far more then the other members do. If the writers want to keep on using these characters, do something different with them and make it stick, rather then falling back into the same cliches from the 60s.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 07-29-2018 at 05:15 PM.

  2. #17
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    I've never seen it (tell me if I'm wrong), but Hydro-Man seems an ideal adversary for The Human Torch.

    Torch once busted up a scam Hammerhead was running. That a one-off, or did anyone ever follow that up?

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Silvermoth's Avatar
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    Hydro man would be pretty interesting. I guess he just needs a bit of work to make his adversarial relationship with the torch something personal

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    They should really change that, outside of Doom a lot of FF villains have the barest of characterization.

    Why should care about Wizard when he is a poor man's Dr. Doom who has a very similar motive for hating Reed Richards as Doom does, expect not as good because his back story is far less developed, give him a rivalry with another FF member and give him some better.
    I don't care about doom. His motivations for pestering the four are extremely weak. He only exists as a link to the lee/Kirby days. He benefits from plot armor because of the child-like nostalgia of writers. Anyways, Bentley is the anti-Reed Richards. That's why he has attempted to start a family and insists upon a four member team. His relationship with Pete is a twisted version of Reed's friendship with Ben. He even has one daughter and one "son." The Wizard has levels. But you actually have to do the reading.
    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I don't care about doom. His motivations for pestering the four are extremely weak. He only exists as a link to the lee/Kirby days. He benefits from plot armor because of the child-like nostalgia of writers. Anyways, Bentley is the anti-Reed Richards. That's why he has attempted to start a family and insists upon a four member team. His relationship with Pete is a twisted version of Reed's friendship with Ben. He even has one daughter and one "son." The Wizard has levels. But you actually have to do the reading.
    Doom is a well regarded as a great villain for a reason, he has a sense of honor and an actual back story. He grew back up in a dictatorship, his mother sold her soul to a demon and got burned at the stake, his father was killed by the Latverian dictatorship, his face got ruined in an explosion while trying to contact his mother in Hell. There is no way Doom would have grown to be a normal person.

    What's Wizard's motive for being a super villain in the first place, it seems like he had a comfortable life style before becoming a villain and had no real reason to become a villain. He ruined his own life, for no reason. That is what is missing with the character, he has no motive beyond being a Dr. Doom wannabe who is jealous of Reed and would have been more dangerous if he kept his villainy a secret and managed to still a respectable citizen and a powerful corporate mogul. He could have been the Marvel version of Lex Luthor instead of C-list public villain with not many accomplishments to his name and that mental breakdown story went no where.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Doom is a well regarded as a great villain for a reason, he has a sense of honor and an actual back story. He grew back up in a dictatorship, his mother sold her soul to a demon and got burned at the stake, his father was killed by the Latverian dictatorship, his face got ruined in an explosion while trying to contact his mother in Hell. There is no way Doom would have grown to be a normal person.
    Just a correction. There were some inconsistencies in the comics about his mother's death. Astonishing Tales #8 just says she died unconfessed and was damned to Hell. In Triumph and Torment, we get a more full version of the story where Cynthia is killed by a soldier of the king using a sword. There was some discussion in the past (can't recall where or what article) about this being symbolic for rape. Books of Doom mentions that Victor recalls that the soldiers "beat us and stole our earnings when they could. And had done worse to our women". I think it was apt that Warren Ellis once described Doom as being morally damaged.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    What's Wizard's motive for being a super villain in the first place, it seems like he had a comfortable life style before becoming a villain and had no real reason to become a villain. He ruined his own life, for no reason. That is what is missing with the character, he has no motive beyond being a Dr. Doom wannabe who is jealous of Reed and would have been more dangerous if he kept his villainy a secret and managed to still a respectable citizen and a powerful corporate mogul. He could have been the Marvel version of Lex Luthor instead of C-list public villain with not many accomplishments to his name and that mental breakdown story went no where.
    I recall the earliest appearance of the Wizard comes in the Torch's solo series in Strange Tales. He had become wealthy by selling his inventions and for making personal appearances. He was sort of a minor celebrity I suppose and then he became bored. This was when he made his first attack on the Human Torch in Strange Tales #101. He had it all so to speak and was an an adult when he made a choice to commit crimes while impersonating Johnny so that he could destroy his reputation as a hero.



  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Just a correction. There were some inconsistencies in the comics about his mother's death. Astonishing Tales #8 just says she died unconfessed and was damned to Hell. In Triumph and Torment, we get a more full version of the story where Cynthia is killed by a soldier of the king using a sword. There was some discussion in the past (can't recall where or what article) about this being symbolic for rape. Books of Doom mentions that Victor recalls that the soldiers "beat us and stole our earnings when they could. And had done worse to our women". I think it was apt that Warren Ellis once described Doom as being morally damaged.
    Well the writers tinker Doom's back story, but he has a way better back story then Wizard or any other FF villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I recall the earliest appearance of the Wizard comes in the Torch's solo series in Strange Tales. He had become wealthy by selling his inventions and for making personal appearances. He was sort of a minor celebrity I suppose and then he became bored. This was when he made his first attack on the Human Torch in Strange Tales #101. He had it all so to speak and was an an adult when he made a choice to commit crimes while impersonating Johnny so that he could destroy his reputation as a hero.




    Yeah and that's a stupid motive for a villain and is why I think Wizard sucks, that motive so lame and one note. If all he is some doofus who would have been far more dangerous if he became a villain, while keeping his public reputation intact, his grudge against the FF makes no sense, if he just became a public villain because he was bored, there is nothing to his grudge against the FF.

    The problem with Wizard as he was created is he had no redeeming qualities, but wasn't creepy or scary or even that menacing. The mental break down was a step in the right for him, but that went no where, his clone son is the only remotely interesting thing about him.

  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Doom is a well regarded as a great villain for a reason
    Because he is marketed as such. The company told you to consider him as the #1 villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    he has a sense of honor and an actual back story.
    His backstory is boring and hard to translate to live-action. His sense of honor is fake; based entirely on convenience. He tried to kill Scott Lang when his back was turned because he had been humiliated. And he most certainly would not have put that in the official history records. All that motivates Doom is the desire to prove himself better than others. He shares this motivation with Otto Octavius and Helmut Zemo. The latter two are more interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    What's Wizard's motive for being a super villain in the first place, it seems like he had a comfortable life style before becoming a villain and had no real reason to become a villain. He ruined his own life, for no reason. That is what is missing with the character, he has no motive beyond being a Dr. Doom wannabe who is jealous of Reed and would have been more dangerous if he kept his villainy a secret and managed to still a respectable citizen and a powerful corporate mogul. He could have been the Marvel version of Lex Luthor instead of C-list public villain with not many accomplishments to his name and that mental breakdown story went no where.
    Being a respectable citizen was Kingpin's schtick. It would make the Wizard more vulnerable and tie his hands when it came to actual villainy. He's doing just fine as a low level mastermind. I have never heard anyone say, "oh no. Not another Wizard appearance." A.I.M recruited him as a leader. So his, in universe, cred is pretty strong. Wake me up when doom isn't taking stark's sloppy seconds.
    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
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  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Seeing as people are talking about Doom...
    When it comes to Doom my problem is that at this point he suffocates any development in the franchise.

    He is considered arguably Marvels best villain and that means whenever he appears in an FF story he completely dominates the narrative. It turns from a Fantastic Four story to a Doom story. It's also usually the same played out stories we always get.

    Dr Doom is a more developed character than every member of the Fantastic Four and that's a problem (he's even getting his own story at the end of the upcoming FF #1). The Fantastic Four is the only team I can think of where that's the case and it's even worse when the team is small. Writers often use him because he is a great villain, but that comes at the expense of other villains for the FF and the team itself.

    This thread may not even exist if he wasn't used so often to the point where other parts of the franchise suffer. The OP even had to omit him from the thread because we already know about his dynamic with the team inside out.

    It's time he took a break from the Fantastic Four and be villain to other heroes and teams. Both him and the Fantastic Four would benefit from this.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Seeing as people are talking about Doom...
    When it comes to Doom my problem is that at this point he suffocates any development in the franchise.

    He is considered arguably Marvels best villain and that means whenever he appears in an FF story he completely dominates the narrative. It turns from a Fantastic Four story to a Doom story. It's also usually the same played out stories we always get.

    Dr Doom is a more developed character than every member of the Fantastic Four and that's a problem (he's even getting his own story at the end of the upcoming FF #1). The Fantastic Four is the only team I can think of where that's the case and it's even worse when the team is small. Writers often use him because he is a great villain, but that comes at the expense of other villains for the FF and the team itself.

    This thread may not even exist if he wasn't used so often to the point where other parts of the franchise suffer. The OP even had to omit him from the thread because we already know about his dynamic with the team inside out.

    It's time he took a break from the Fantastic Four and be villain to other heroes and teams. Both him and the Fantastic Four would benefit from this.
    Been there, done that. Doom had his own series while the FF were on hiatus and it was selling in the top 100. He always did have a strong presence outside of the Fantastic Four. I wouldn't mind if Slott kept up the Iron Man connection and Doom had minimal connection to the Fantastic Four for a while. He already has a sort of guest shot in an upcoming Thor arc but it takes place in the distant future.

  11. #26
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    I've said it once and I'll say it again, Doctor Doom is too good for the Fantastic Four. If anyone had outgrown that book, it was Doctor Doom. The character has had his own comic runs, a spin-off, became Iron man (and arguably The Iron man of the era), had his own Avengers, and was the focal point of several of Marvel's biggest and best events including videogames. He was even immune to Marvel's Fantastic Four ban which goes to show that the company was more than willing to keep him around than the First family.

    This is why I'm going to never stop giving Dan Slott shit for the book if he botches Doom, because he has indeed outgrown the title. Doctor Doom is literally too good to be here which is why other writers keep bringing him back. He's too marketable, interesting, and had more interesting things to do while he's in Fantastic Four. He steals the show when he appears. He's too good for it.

    My only hope is that Dan Slott uses new villains or refurbish older ones to make the book work without Victor because as it we can't have more of the same. If writers want to write Doom, just pitch a Doctor Doom book or him on a team. Marvel is more than willing to grant the request.
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  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Been there, done that. Doom had his own series while the FF were on hiatus and it was selling in the top 100. He always did have a strong presence outside of the Fantastic Four. I wouldn't mind if Slott kept up the Iron Man connection and Doom had minimal connection to the Fantastic Four for a while. He already has a sort of guest shot in an upcoming Thor arc but it takes place in the distant future.
    I'm still upset that they reverted him from being Infamous Iron Man. It was character development that would naturally mean that he shows up less in a FF book and when he does show up the dynamics would be new and interesting.

    I hope Slott uses him as little as possible in the FF book and instead uses him in his Iron Man book. That way Doom fans such as yourself still get to see Doom and he doesn't take away from the Fantastic Four.
    Last edited by Crimz; 07-31-2018 at 02:57 PM.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    I'm still upset that they reverted him from being Infamous Iron Man. It was character development that would naturally mean that he shows up less in a FF book and when he does show up the dynamics would be new and interesting.

    I hope Slott uses him as little as possible in the FF book and instead uses him in his Iron Man book. That way Doom fans such as yourself still get to see Doom and he doesn't take away from the Fantastic Four.

    I was really disappointed that they did do the expected with Doom and he got his face messed up again. I think most of us felt it was inevitable but were hoping that we were wrong. At least he can't blame Reed for it and I don't think anyone would miss the Hood if Victor ended up killing him. He'd probably come back again anyway.

  14. #29

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    it was quite predictable; like most Doom stories.
    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I thought I couldn't love Steve Rogers any more than I already do, but here he is, eating pizza with a fork, just like I do (the only correct way to eat pizza

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Because he is marketed as such. The company told you to consider him as the #1 villain.



    His backstory is boring and hard to translate to live-action. His sense of honor is fake; based entirely on convenience. He tried to kill Scott Lang when his back was turned because he had been humiliated. And he most certainly would not have put that in the official history records. All that motivates Doom is the desire to prove himself better than others. He shares this motivation with Otto Octavius and Helmut Zemo. The latter two are more interesting.
    Stack up the best Dr. Doom stories and the best Wizard stories and I think I know which ones most people would prefer, how many great Wizard stories are there?


    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Being a respectable citizen was Kingpin's schtick. It would make the Wizard more vulnerable and tie his hands when it came to actual villainy. He's doing just fine as a low level mastermind. I have never heard anyone say, "oh no. Not another Wizard appearance." A.I.M recruited him as a leader. So his, in universe, cred is pretty strong. Wake me up when doom isn't taking stark's sloppy seconds.
    Except what makes his motives compelling in the first place? You rag on Doom's back story, but what's Wizard's back story ''decided to throw away a comforable life and become a public super villain who will be hated by the public and will be in and out of jail for the rest of his life, because he was bored''. That is a crappy motive and if they can't give him something better after over 50 years, it makes him a crappy villain.

    His character motivation might as well be ''Mwa, ha, ha I am an evil villain who hates the Fantastic Four because.....Mwa, ha, ha!'' I don't hate Wizard, but I am bored with him and would be interested in a story where he is the main villain if the writers put so little effort into his motives. He is too evil to sympathetic, but not evil enough to be scary or creepy or truly menacing. There are no real stakes with Wizard generally, all he did was try to kill the FF and fail because the FF have the Frightful Four beat in almost every category, he poses no real threat to the FF or the world at large, so he is this box that doesn't make him menacing. The only time they added stakes with him is when the added the mental break down and again, that went no where. Like why was ranting about God when he was crazy, is he religious, where did that come from?

    Do you want these villains to stay in the same boxes they were created in back in 60s, even though the world has changed a lot in the past 50 years and something that was fresh 50 years can seem old and stale now, like how times can Wizard create a Frightful Four to oppose the FF, before he realizes he should form a Frightful Fourteen instead.

    Frankly I would make Wizard different from Doom, by ditching his rivalry with Reed, have him be Torch's enemy again and give a better motive for his villainy.

    I am going to agree you in one aspect, Doom is over exposed and it be nice to give some of these other villains the spotlight. However you do really not want to take these characters out of the boxes they have been in since the 60s and have them do something new? Red Ghost has to constantly be a Cold War relic (even though the Cold War ended in 1991) because that is what he was in the 60s? Wizard has have the same thin motives (either boredom or one note jealousy of Reed Richards) who constantly forms Frightful Four groups because that is what he was in the 60s?

    Heck I think Mad Thinker was a better realized character in the New Warrior comics then the FF comics, but the writers seem to love dragging him back to his old stale Silver Age characterization.

    Can't give some of these villains better motives or put them out of their box and make it stick? Like I said, the mental break down for Wizard was a good start, but had no explanation or follow through and they reset him back to zero. If DC can expand their B-list villains beyond their starting places, why can't Marvel? Not only should these B-list FF villains be given more detailed rivalries with other FF members, their characters should be expanded so their some dynamics to these rivalries beyond ''bad guy does bad things, hero stops him/her''.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 07-31-2018 at 06:25 PM.

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