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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adset View Post
    i enjoyed the ben reily-as-spider-man part (sensational #0 through the end of "power and responsibility") quite a bit. we got a lot of classic spider-man tropes back: ben was dirt poor and couldn't always afford webbing, girl problems, etc etc, and i always thought ben carried additional emotional weight because he had the same baggage as peter concerning uncle ben, but he was also plagued because he wasn't able to be w/ may at the end of her life. the issue where he asks for an advance on his pay at that coffee shop so he could buy flowers for ben and may's grave always resonated with me. hell, i even liked their stab at reinventing mysterio, and i *love* the classic fish bowl look.
    same same same
    troo fan or death

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Yep. The original plan was to reveal Ben Reilly as the original in ASM #400. Marketing pressured Marvel to drag the storyline out until even the writers were exhausted. It also didn't help that they used a pass-the-baton approach, writing chapters instead of getting their own arcs to explore what meant the most to them.
    i honestly hated the resolution to the "saga". deflaco's middling mini-series retelling of the tale at least had a better, cleaner ending.
    troo fan or death

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adset View Post
    the first comic book i ever bought was amazing #404 (smack dab in the middle of "maximum clonage") so i'm in the same boat as the poster above -- i started reading comics right around the mid-point of the clone saga, so for me it was this sprawling, never-ending saga that i just thought was... normal. it took some getting used to after peter parker: spider-man #75 finally closed the door on the whole thing. i know for most people the spider-books reverted back to normal after that, but for me it was strange.
    .
    that's how i felt at the time; after the batshit insanity of the saga...going back to basics kinda bored me into dropping the title
    troo fan or death

  4. #19
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    I'll be honest. I'm not a fan, though part of it is that I'm not really into the 90s storytelling.

    I think it was a flawed concept hurt by editorial decisions (the majority of the content is part of crossovers with multiple writers, the larger story was often padded, there were a lot of last minute changes.)

    But there are some Ben Reilly fans out there who see the good.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  5. #20
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    i'll echo what most have said here...it's a mixed bag of really high highs and low lows

    one thing i liked about it was it felt like anything could happen- nothing was sacred.

    i'm also a sucker for duplicates/clones/memory themes in stories, stuff that goes into questions of identity. it got pretty deep at times, but also pretty silly. it probably helped that as a kid, i could only afford certain issues so i missed most of the poorer parts.

    i will 100% buy both omnibus when i can
    Yeah, they threw in that bit where you really DIDN'T know which was the "real" Spiderman so you had this nagging itch like one of them was gonna get offed at any time to restore the status quo.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    I look at the Clone Saga as a great idea that should have been better developed and far less complicated. There were just too many things going on, too many twists, and the initial resolution (Ben being real, Peter being the clone) was infuriating at the time. Then the second resolution (Ben being the clone, Peter being real, Norman being the mastermind) was ridiculous. \

    So definitely a mixed bag for sure. I liked Ben as a character. But it was just...not executed well.

  7. #22
    Incredible Member Adset's Avatar
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    editorially, no question it was a master class in disorganization. the early/mid 90s was the era of replacing long-time heroes with edgier newcomers, unfortunately the clone saga lacked the editorial foresight of the superman and batman groups to have a planned end game, and it lacked the balls to make a radical decision and stick with it like what DC did with hal jordan. the spider-books were still better than what happened to poor tony stark right before heroes reborn, though. THAT was a travesty.

  8. #23
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    I thinks itīs quite bad actually.
    Spider-Man joining Jackal to conquer the world because he was confused.
    The Clone actually being the real Spider-Man and the Peter Parker that apeared in all the stories ever since the original Clone story arc being the clone is to me a fine exemple of how not to do a retcon in a comic book.
    The new Spider-Man that at one point in the story is supposed to be the real one being all edgy and stuff.
    The more i remember details of the story from what i read the more contrived the whole story look to me.
    And how the story looked like a way to have Peter Parker retire of being Spider-Man to life ever hapily with Mary Jane because a new and edgier Spider-Man would carry on the Spider-Man legacy.
    To say something positive about it i will give a mention to how a story can be explored in impressive detail many years later (The original Clone Story arc is from the issue 140īs of Amazing Spider-Man)

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    I thinks itīs quite bad actually.
    Spider-Man joining Jackal to conquer the world because he was confused.
    The Clone actually being the real Spider-Man and the Peter Parker that apeared in all the stories ever since the original Clone story arc being the clone is to me a fine exemple of how not to do a retcon in a comic book.
    The new Spider-Man that at one point in the story is supposed to be the real one being all edgy and stuff.
    The more i remember details of the story from what i read the more contrived the whole story look to me.
    And how the story looked like a way to have Peter Parker retire of being Spider-Man to life ever hapily with Mary Jane because a new and edgier Spider-Man would carry on the Spider-Man legacy.
    To say something positive about it i will give a mention to how a story can be explored in impressive detail many years later (The original Clone Story arc is from the issue 140īs of Amazing Spider-Man)
    was ben edgier?
    troo fan or death

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    was ben edgier?
    The first Ben Reilly costume had a hood,plus in the lost years limited series he was driving around in a motorbike from what i know.
    So Ben being a more edgier Spider-Man was what it looked to me when i read those stories way back.
    Did not liked that the writers tried to make Ben Reilly a better Spider-Man by having Ben Reilly fighting and wining the Venom in one of the first stories that featured him.
    Because the first stories that had Venom,he was for sure a very powerful villain to Spider-Man.In the first story arcs with Venom the character got developed to be a even more serious antagonist in the Spidey stories that Green Goblin or Doctor Octopus.
    All the previous encounters of Spider-Man with Venom before the Clone Saga,that was a villain that gave him the most trouble.
    And in the Clone Saga,Ben Reilly (what i guess was the writers trying to say Ben was better at being Spider-Man that Peter Parker) defeats the Venom due the impact weebing gadgets.
    So the characterisation of BenReilly did not mashed up well to me in terms of the Spider-Man continuity.
    So i know that BenReilly have fans,but the narrative of the stories seem way too much being editorially driven during the Clone Saga.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    The first Ben Reilly costume had a hood,plus in the lost years limited series he was driving around in a motorbike from what i know.
    So Ben being a more edgier Spider-Man was what it looked to me when i read those stories way back.
    Did not liked that the writers tried to make Ben Reilly a better Spider-Man by having Ben Reilly fighting and wining the Venom in one of the first stories that featured him.
    Because the first stories that had Venom,he was for sure a very powerful villain to Spider-Man.In the first story arcs with Venom the character got developed to be a even more serious antagonist in the Spidey stories that Green Goblin or Doctor Octopus.
    All the previous encounters of Spider-Man with Venom before the Clone Saga,that was a villain that gave him the most trouble.
    And in the Clone Saga,Ben Reilly (what i guess was the writers trying to say Ben was better at being Spider-Man that Peter Parker) defeats the Venom due the impact weebing gadgets.
    So the characterisation of BenReilly did not mashed up well to me in terms of the Spider-Man continuity.
    So i know that BenReilly have fans,but the narrative of the stories seem way too much being editorially driven during the Clone Saga.

    i don't know, ben just struck me as a dork who learned to dress cool. he innovated where peter had gotten complacent, but i don't know if that makes him edgy or just an outsider. he wasn't chopping off people's hands back then like he does now.

    but yeah, no argument re editorial interference dragging it into some bad, bad places
    troo fan or death

  12. #27
    Incredible Member Adset's Avatar
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    yeah i didn't get any "edgy" vibes from ben reilly, either. especially by the time he was revealed to be the real deal and eventually took over the spider-books. i always took him as a classic peter parker stand-in (with the money/girl problems) but with blonde hair. i've always been under the assumption ben was an early marvel attempt to dissolve the peter/mary jane marriage and revert the spider-books basic to basics without killing anybody or resorting to divorce.

    side question, is anybody reading ben reilly: scarlet spider? i love peter david, and i love the scarlet spider, but that clone conspiracy arc in ASM made me want to punch a hole in the wall (i know that was stott, not PAD) and i just wasn't able to get into the early issues of the new scarlet spider series. any fans? i thought about picking it back up when PAD re-introduced the slingers, but i held off.

  13. #28
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adset View Post
    yeah i didn't get any "edgy" vibes from ben reilly, either. especially by the time he was revealed to be the real deal and eventually took over the spider-books. i always took him as a classic peter parker stand-in (with the money/girl problems) but with blonde hair. i've always been under the assumption ben was an early marvel attempt to dissolve the peter/mary jane marriage and revert the spider-books basic to basics without killing anybody or resorting to divorce.

    side question, is anybody reading ben reilly: scarlet spider? i love peter david, and i love the scarlet spider, but that clone conspiracy arc in ASM made me want to punch a hole in the wall (i know that was stott, not PAD) and i just wasn't able to get into the early issues of the new scarlet spider series. any fans? i thought about picking it back up when PAD re-introduced the slingers, but i held off.
    I hope you decide to check it out! I've been reading it from the beginning, warts and all, and I think it's been hitting its stride lately. Ironically, Kaine has really been the highlight of the series for me: PAD really nailed his character from the get-go, while it's clear he had trouble finding Ben's voice (which is kind of a plot point in itself - Ben feeling lost about his identity). But seeing our Scarlet Clone Bros interacting has really been a treat and makes the comic well worth it, even if it's not exactly what I (or others) may have wanted.

    Plus, heck yeah: Slingers!!!!!!!!

    -Pav, who would point you in the direction of the Scarlet-themed threads in this forum...
    Last edited by Pav; 08-03-2018 at 08:01 AM.
    You were Spider-Man then. You and Peter had agreed on it. But he came back right when you started feeling comfortable.
    You know what it means when he comes back
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    But there are some Ben Reilly fans out there who see the good.
    Don't forget marriage fans, as the saga was the most advanced that concept had ever been outside of AUs

  15. #30
    Maintaining Status Q _Feely_'s Avatar
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    After the Death of Superman, I can't believe I punished myself so thoroughly by sticking with that goddamn story till the end.

    Teenage me wants that time and money back.

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